leeslover Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I just had a thought. We've lost out on promotion under Shez and Ronnie arguably because we have failed to come back from behind or scratch wins from draws. Given the huge resources we spent under Davros and the fact that we were generally within a not that disimilar position under the three managers when they had a full season (OK, give a bit of haggling room), can we read into it that Dowie's teams were actually fairly average apart from the points they gained in the last 10 minutes? Not that this is any argument against having a superfit and motivated squad, but I look back and wonder if anyone with a chequebook and John Harbin might not have done as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy_Fent Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Not that this is any argument against having a superfit and motivated squad, but I look back and wonder if anyone with a chequebook and John Harbin might not have done as well. it does make you think what was the biggest factor in that season between the two, although we splashed out on the wages of Clint Hill, Wijnhard and Murray, other players who contributed to the squad in a big way such as Fitz Hall, Wayne Andrews and Will Haining did do their bit too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 it does make you think what was the biggest factor in that season between the two, although we splashed out on the wages of Clint Hill, Wijnhard and Murray, other players who contributed to the squad in a big way such as Fitz Hall, Wayne Andrews and Will Haining did do their bit too True, but we have had home grown/relatively cheap players in more recent squads as well. I'm thinking more in this one about what we did for the 75 minutes before we mounted the numerous comebacks. We must have been doing reasonably craply, no? But we were fitter and motivated and so grabbed something in a lot of games. As I say, nothing against the latter but it seems to say that Dowie couldn't organise a team to win on skill and organisation until the fitness and motivational things things kicked in. And as Harbin is widely said to have been the head-man, is Dowie actually a rubbish football manager with a good fitness coach and an ace agent and lawyer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldhamSheridan Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 So you are saying a team with lots of money, another manager and Harbin would walk a league. If only I could think of a team in that situation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daznathe Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 i disagree. i think pogs, hall, hill, armstrong, haining, murray,eyres, eyre and whinjard were outstanding players, and a terrific nucleus of a good squad with an excellent off the field set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoytonBlueLad Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 So you are saying a team with lots of money, another manager and Harbin would walk a league. If only I could think of a team in that situation... Zing! Very good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daznathe Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 further to this, the 75 minutes thing tells me that teams tried to spoil us, ala how it is now. BUT as the players were of a better standard, they could go that extra yard. this was backed by supreme fitness and motivation, which came from the manager. he appointed harbin, he took training, he picked the team, he signed the players. he was a rookie manager with the potential to be a very good one, as it stands circumstances and decisions took later mean that he didnt have the grounding (ie at the same club with the same people as he learned) and hes fizzled out to average, but probably a very good coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I'd kill for a 25 year old Paul Murray in our side now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 As I say, nothing against the latter but it seems to say that Dowie couldn't organise a team to win on skill and organisation until the fitness and motivational things things kicked in. And as Harbin is widely said to have been the head-man, is Dowie actually a rubbish football manager with a good fitness coach and an ace agent and lawyer? It was undoubtably a much much better and more consistent set of teams fighting it out at the top the season davros got us to the play-offs though...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Wigan bossed it. Crewe were an attractive, attacking side. QPR, Bristol City and Cardiff... well, look at them now. Tranmere got 80 points and missed out on the play offs. The quality of sides in 2002/03 hasn't been matched until this season; and we're slowly but surely sliding out of the picture. I'll be honest. I've just eaten so I'm feeling a little sleepy now, thus losing track of this whole discussion. What was I saying? Oh yeah, I think we were better back then. Just unlucky with injuries to key players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoytonBlueLad Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Wigan bossed it. Crewe were an attractive, attacking side. QPR, Bristol City and Cardiff... well, look at them now. Tranmere got 80 points and missed out on the play offs. The quality of sides in 2002/03 hasn't been matched until this season; and we're slowly but surely sliding out of the picture. I'll be honest. I've just eaten so I'm feeling a little sleepy now, thus losing track of this whole discussion. What was I saying? Oh yeah, I think we were better back then. Just unlucky with injuries to key players. With Clint Hill fit all season and Les not assaulted by that turd Littlejohn we'd have gone up. No danger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creepy Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I'd kill for a 25 year old Paul Murray in our side now. Ian Westlake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Ian Westlake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bring Back Ronnie Moore Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I'll ditto that shizzle: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte_Baby Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 With Clint Hill fit all season and Les not assaulted by that turd Littlejohn we'd have gone up. No danger. Also we where unlucky with players suspended. I still think if Dowie had been in charge with the TTA we would of gone up by now. Dowie does not seem to be good a bringing younger players in but is good in the transfer market and scouting players in the Non League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creepy Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I'll ditto that shizzle: I havent seen westlake play is he not that good? box to box like Paul Murray he was described Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Wigan bossed it. Crewe were an attractive, attacking side. QPR, Bristol City and Cardiff... well, look at them now. Tranmere got 80 points and missed out on the play offs. The quality of sides in 2002/03 hasn't been matched until this season; and we're slowly but surely sliding out of the picture. I'll be honest. I've just eaten so I'm feeling a little sleepy now, thus losing track of this whole discussion. What was I saying? Oh yeah, I think we were better back then. Just unlucky with injuries to key players. Every side from that top 6 would have finished top 2 in any of the seasons since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daznathe Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 yes westlake is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 But he sure as :censored:e ain't fit to lace Muzza's boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creepy Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 But he sure as :censored:e ain't fit to lace Muzza's boots. [/quo How do you know when you havent seen him play down the middle yet? hes a box to box centre midfielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Only saw Westlake on his debut. I thought he was anonymous, but he wasn't the only one that day. Others thought he was Latics' man of the match. The key is what does he bring to the team? How does his previous relationship with Joe Royle affect things for the better? I rate Maher, Allott and Whitaker. But they haven't exactly driven the team on this season. If Westlake really is a box to box midfielder who picks the ball up deep and can arrive late in the opposition area, week in week out, then that'll do for me. I just don't know that he is yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigfinLatic Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Only saw Westlake on his debut. If Westlake really is a box to box midfielder who picks the ball up deep and can arrive late in the opposition area, week in week out, then that'll do for me. I just don't know that he is yet. He is, apart from that last bit on arriving in the box - from what I have seen of him, Westlake is every bit of the player Muzza was, but probably doesnt quite have it around the box... I highly doubt Westlake would ever get more than a couple of goals a season... He is more of a younger, fitter, possibly more polished Mark Allott. As has been said though, he has only been played down the left... for 45 minutes against the orient, him and DJ terrified them and looked great... however I would like to see him given a shot in the centre of the park... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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