johnny punkster Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well from what we have heard so far - 2 3G Pitches - 2 Grass Pitches - 10 5 a side pitches - conferencing facilities - IH said there would also be potential for 1 or 2 other commercial ventures? But would this pull in 40k a month profit, after decucting the cost of maintenance, wages etc? all in direct competition with man city and a potential new fc united stadium ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 The credit crunch. Hammered the TTA in America, where they're money comes from. So they have not got as much money as thy did have. I am not saying they are on the breadline, but chucking away 1/2m a years is to tought to take. Don;t forget we wou.ld now be well on our way to building all the flats and the other self sustaining developments. The TTA was always making a self sustaining busines then exit. Of course they would make money, but who would begrudge them that after investing 27million. There are not enough Jack Walkers in Oldham to just put allth eir money into LAtics. Did Bolton need a Jack Walker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well SC quoted last night the revenue generated from these facilities "would be put back into the club" although again, that does not necessarily mean that Oldham Athletic (2004) association Football Club will 'own' the facilities Exactly.. Also will all the revenue be put back in... if so that means TTA get nothing... and that simply dosent add up... Specially as SC said TTA WILL make money out of the development. LOTS of questions remain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 £40,000 a month isn't far from what we were said to be losing under Chris Moore. I dont think that is true is it... It was more like £75k under Moore wasnt it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 tell them to publicly put the club up for sale then..with the land they have purchased ...and who says they have to be in oldham? would any potential new owner look at the failsworth proposal and think.."yep,its the only option.."? Do you really want to take that risk though mate? I mean... really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Does anyone feel that those who dont want to move to Failsworth will change their minds if the ground actually looks good? Of course it will probably look crap but we can live in hope! To those who say being a well run club doesnt go hand in hand with the club dying. I think SC is refering to the fact that the general apathy of our support means that if they did pull the plug the club would not be able to survive at this level because we just dont get the numbers through the turnstiles. Rather than leave the club with the budget they are running at the moment where they cover the costs which would surely put the club into administration they have said they will not leave until we can become self sufficient, which will see budgets slashed until it is covered by our crowds which will in all honesty probably see us languish in mid table in the division below. In turn this would probably lead to lower crowds and the cycle continuing which would see the club die in terms of being able to compete at a decent professional level. There is no general apathy concerning our support. When good things happen people will turn up at BP. When other clubs that are now thriving were down where we are, they were getting similar crowds to what we're getting now. The difference is that they managed to find a way to thrive, to one degree or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor_Coconut Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) I'm sure that we were told it was down to £10-15 grand a month not long ago. £40,000 a month isn't far from what we were said to be losing under Chris Moore. Edited August 11, 2009 by Senor_Coconut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Do you really want to take that risk though mate? I mean... really? sorry mate,what point do you refer to? risk of new owners or risk of not moving because tta want to cash in on the prized land they bought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downender2 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Did Bolton need a Jack Walker? No idea.... are they still in massive debt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sheridans_world Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I'm sure that we were told it was down to £10-15 grand a month not long ago. £40,000 a month isn't far from what we were said to be losing under Chris Moore. I remember it being down to 10-15k a week not long ago. That fits in with SC's figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_ragg1984 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 its about 7 miles the more direct route. I've just Google Mapped it. It's 6.1 miles by car, but you can shave 0.1 miles off that if you walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 sorry mate,what point do you refer to? risk of new owners or risk of not moving because tta want to cash in on the prized land they bought? The risk of TTA selling the club and hoping some new investment comes rolling in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie_Dugger Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 No idea.... are they still in massive debt? Here's your answer : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/...l-Football.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I think you may be right, but can you blame them? After the general apathy of the Oldham public, taking 5 years to finally win over the council and just not having a feeling of gratitude by anyone except a hardcore band of fans. I think their message regarding this is clear, but at least they're aiming to get Latics to a self-sufficiant state of affairs before they do depart for pastures new. I know of a lot of other asset-stripping types who'd have nowhere near the amount of patience that TTA are showing. I think hypothetically should we get the new stadium, albeit a small capacity at first, we'll be in a strong position for investment from somewhere else. A founder Premier League club, debt free in a brand new expendable stadium is a very attractive offer, but it's key we get past the next few hurdles and move to Failsworth. As it stands, we are dying as a club and will do unless this move happens. Why would anybody with big ideas look at investing in a club that seems so content to stay at lower division level that it builds a stadium that has a lower division capacity from the off? Especially when you consider how fewer potentially big investors there are likely to be in the more financially-straitened future that seems to be coming? Why wouldn't they look at a club that seems to have more ambtion than simply staying out of the fourth division? The reason why people are not turning up at BP in their droves to 'show their gratitude' (since when did football club owners become cult heroes that have to be paid homage to? Not too long ago they were largely anonymous figures) is that nothing has happened football-wise. We no more look like getting out of this division than we did when TTA arrived, and some of the football on offer has, in their time, been abysmal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpmarko Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Did Bolton need a Jack Walker? Actually, yes..... "Chairman Phil Gartside has questioned whether Bolton would even be in existence without major shareholder Eddie Davies, following the club record signing of Johan Elmander." Gartside hails lifesaver Davies Millionaire Fan buys control of Bolton .... yadder yadder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) No idea.... are they still in massive debt? Well spotted downender They were £40m in debt after Burnden Park, in 2003. I'll do a bit of reserachto find what it is now. So Corp. We'd never get that debt line in the current Great Depression. Are you comparing us to a club that has had a £40m debt. ARe you Gordon Brown in disguise?! Edited August 11, 2009 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor_Coconut Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I'm sure that we were told it was down to £10-15 grand a month not long ago. £40,000 a month isn't far from what we were said to be losing under Chris Moore. A club insider says Latics now have 72 hours over the weekend to find either a business consortium or a wealthy benefactor to help rescue the club. And there's a deadline looming on Friday, July 11, when unpaid wages need to be met, or the players can walk. A number of Latics stars including Fitz Hall and Les Pogliacomi are reported to be set to leave on a free transfer should their wages not be met. Latics are losing around £25,000 a week. By then, though, Moore had decided his football venture was over. In March, he announced in the match programme that the club's spending, mostly on the wages of the players signed in his time, exceeded the club's income by £50,000 a week. He had been footing the shortfall, his loans had swollen to £4m, and while he was resigned to losing that, he was not prepared to support the club and lose any more. Yet the fire sales and cost-cutting have not made a significant enough difference to Oldham's finances. The wage bill, according to Jon Newell, of PKF, the club's administrator, is around £210,000 per month, £2.5m a year, expected to swallow up all the club's income. The Inland Revenue are owed £400,000; they finally lost patience and issued a winding up petition, which led the club to seek the protection of administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie_Dugger Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Another view : http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/ju...ier-league-debt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor_Coconut Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 A club insider says Latics now have 72 hours over the weekend to find either a business consortium or a wealthy benefactor to help rescue the club. And there's a deadline looming on Friday, July 11, when unpaid wages need to be met, or the players can walk. A number of Latics stars including Fitz Hall and Les Pogliacomi are reported to be set to leave on a free transfer should their wages not be met. Latics are losing around £25,000 a week. By then, though, Moore had decided his football venture was over. In March, he announced in the match programme that the club's spending, mostly on the wages of the players signed in his time, exceeded the club's income by £50,000 a week. He had been footing the shortfall, his loans had swollen to £4m, and while he was resigned to losing that, he was not prepared to support the club and lose any more. Yet the fire sales and cost-cutting have not made a significant enough difference to Oldham's finances. The wage bill, according to Jon Newell, of PKF, the club's administrator, is around £210,000 per month, £2.5m a year, expected to swallow up all the club's income. The Inland Revenue are owed £400,000; they finally lost patience and issued a winding up petition, which led the club to seek the protection of administration. So we were losing £50k a week during the height of Moores reign and with the out of contract players being released it went down to £25k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wozz_oafc Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Well from what we have heard so far - 2 3G Pitches - 2 Grass Pitches - 10 5 a side pitches - conferencing facilities - IH said there would also be potential for 1 or 2 other commercial ventures? But would this pull in 40k a month profit, after decucting the cost of maintenance, wages etc? Maybe not 40k profit but it is a very good business model. I am sure Powerleague make an absolute killing!! You have about 3 staff on, pay for lighting in the winter, a bit of maintenance, with the only big outlay being on relaying the pitches every few years. Some one did the numbers above and it made 32k turnover. Lets say half of that goes on costs and your generating 16k a month from that for the club. By the time our development is done though I would think pitches would be costing around £60-70 for the hour! So would be generating more than 32k revenue. Conferencing facilities will probably be a modest income say a 4k profit. That would give you half of the deficit. It would be interesting to see what the other comercial ventures are, but if they are chosen wisely I dont see why these cant make up the other half. If we coiuld fill a couple of largeish office blocks the rent collected could be quite handsome. A stadium move is also likely to see the standard catering facilities which come with all of these new grounds, so I would expect extortionate food prices at any new development. I am sure you will also be able to buy pints of overly priced piss (beer) in every part of the ground which I am sure is a big money maker. Ticket prices will be pushed up no doubt and programmes. I can see the new ground being a smokescreen for a lot of sneaky price increases, with fans being less likely to notice due to the excitement of moving to a new stadium. It is not among the realms of possibility at all that a few business ventures should be able to turnover 40k profit a month. I think any ambitious businessman would like to see just one of their ventures turn over that much per month. Edited August 11, 2009 by wozz_oafc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Well spotted downender They were £40m in debt after Burnden Park, in 2003. I'll do a bit of reserachto find what it is now. So Corp. We'd never get that debt line in the current Great Depression. Are you comparing us to a club that has had a £40m debt. ARe you Gordon Brown in disguise?! Latest June 2009 figures. £52 million !!! Losing £8.4m per year. Good comparision! Source: Guardian. Bolton Wanderers Accounts for the year to 30 June 2008 Ownership 95% owned by Edwin Davies, via Fildraw Private Trust, believed to be in the Isle of Man, a tax haven Turnover £59.1m (up from £51m last year: 16% increase) Gate and match-day £6.8m Hotel £8.7m TV and broadcasting £34.2m Corporate hospitality £2.4m Merchandising £1.2m Sponsorship and advertising £3.5m Other football income £2.3m Wage bill £39m (up from 30.7m in 2007, a 27% increase) Wages as proportion of turnover 66% Loss before tax £8.4m Debts £52m Interest payable £3m Highest paid director Allan Duckworth: £376,000 State they're in With gates 11.4% down despite season ticket price reductions, losses and debts up, and Bolton one of the clubs more vulnerable to the recession, Wanderers are struggling to keep up. The club's owner, the Isle of Man-based Edwin Davies, loaned a further £4.5m, apparently at annual interest of 10%, for which the club paid a £623,000 arrangement fee. Few doubted that the chairman Phil Gartside's idea for a "Premier League Second Division" springs in part from his own fear that Bolton, at some point, are likely to face the financial horror of relegation. Edited August 11, 2009 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Latest June 2009 figures. £52 million !!! Losing £8.4m per month. Good comparision! Source: Guardian. Bolton Wanderers Accounts for the year to 30 June 2008 Ownership 95% owned by Edwin Davies, via Fildraw Private Trust, believed to be in the Isle of Man, a tax haven Turnover £59.1m (up from £51m last year: 16% increase) Gate and match-day £6.8m Hotel £8.7m TV and broadcasting £34.2m Corporate hospitality £2.4m Merchandising £1.2m Sponsorship and advertising £3.5m Other football income £2.3m Wage bill £39m (up from 30.7m in 2007, a 27% increase) Wages as proportion of turnover 66% Loss before tax £8.4m Debts £52m Interest payable £3m Highest paid director Allan Duckworth: £376,000 State they're in With gates 11.4% down despite season ticket price reductions, losses and debts up, and Bolton one of the clubs more vulnerable to the recession, Wanderers are struggling to keep up. The club's owner, the Isle of Man-based Edwin Davies, loaned a further £4.5m, apparently at annual interest of 10%, for which the club paid a £623,000 arrangement fee. Few doubted that the chairman Phil Gartside's idea for a "Premier League Second Division" springs in part from his own fear that Bolton, at some point, are likely to face the financial horror of relegation. I recall that from the notes of the meting Leesds £9m wages, us £1.7m, Bolton £39m wage bill. Which is almost exactly the TV revenue. Their debt repayment but virtually buy out team twice over. Edited August 11, 2009 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Didn't think they told us anything that new today...just merely allowed Failsworth Dynamos to air some grievances. The rest of the stuff was pretty much what we knew already. Anything more difficult got lost...like the two examples above. It's a shame the person asking that question didn't follow up with "So will Brassbank not be involved with OAFC in anyway?" however the way it was answered with a blunt Yes and moved onto the next question kinda gave the idea it was a very unwanted question. Interestingly, Ian Hill choose to say that Darlington's problems came from having a 26k stadium thats empty. As though our 12k would be filled out. Or that a near empty 12k stadium would be much better off. Neither is true. Oxford's plight was ignored. Instead focusing on the budgets of the two former Premiership clubs that have come down. And previously focusing on your already established Bolton (pre-stadium) and millions loaded Wigans. We're neither of them...it all comes from off-field revenue which I hoped we'd get a bit more insight on tonight...but didn't. Other than what we knew. I hope this isn't classed as consultation anyway. I welcome the opportunity to sit down and talk and find it sad that so few Latics fans turned up. I await further information from TTA before I'm convinced this is right for us...even though we'll be (to use the Dynamos phrase) railroaded into moving regardless. As the person I went with to the forum said to me tonight...we simply sound like we're looking to move from BP to Failsworth with the same commerical problems, the same attendances and the same playing budget...all of which really is lacking ambtion and merely a side step and not a push forward. And with such revenue streams (business offices, conferencing suites) on the doorstep in the form of Manchester, Eastlands and now, as it transpired tonight, potentially FC United...people need to realise that this seriously isn't a guaranteed secured future for OAFC as everyone keeps pointing out...but a tricky gamble which has very high risks for our future and thus still does not address why such facilities, albeit scaled down, couldn't be looked at right where we are. As Simon said tonight..."I can give no assurances"...indeed...more plans please before I'm anywhere near convinced this move is vital for our survival. Spot on. the whitewash I expected, we've learnt nothing new and we are still left with more questions than answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 You are beginning to sound like a broken record! I have tried reading all your posts, but can't seem to get over this fixation you have with the so-called level of "small-time" existence. So what? Are you seriously expecting a club the size of Oldham Athletic to ever compete with relatively near-neighbours such as Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Everton, Wigan, Leeds and even Bolton? Our catchment area is not significant enough to warrant a large-capacity stadium and, if by some sheer miracle, we get back into the Championship and the Premiership, the capacity can be extended. Why should OAFC build a stadium with, say, a capacity of 18,000, only to have it hold around 5,000 supporters every other week and having an atmosphere like a biscuit tin? Why should the Directors throw good money after bad at the club, in attempt to get Latics higher up the leagues, when the people of Oldham respond with apathy and decide to sit in front of the goggle box, preferring to watch the big fish instead? For OAFC to raise themselves above the level of the "Rochdales, Stockports and Burys of this world", we would need significant investment from a source other than the ones we have now. I don't see that happening. Do you? Oldham Athletic does not seem to have the good fortune in that department that the likes of Wigan, Fulham, Notts County etc. have had. We are a third-tier club. With a good season and a bit of luck, we could become a second-tier club, but I'll tell you now, the crowds won't increase by much because Oldham just doesn't have the fan base and we would struggle to make an impact. Add to that, entertainment streams, which have increased greatly since we graced the top two flights, plus the changing dynamics of small-town Oldham. All have made a significant impact on the sport in the area. This new stadium is a definite step in the right direction and I'm sure any loyal Latics fan would not begrudge traveling a few extra miles for the luxury of sitting in a good stadium, with good facilities and all the attendant benefits that go with it. It would also represent a better chance of increasing attendances than the current run-down shack we call home. The Directors are open to any suggestions of a viable alternative but it is obvious that OAFC can not hang around on this one. The groundwork for this site has been laid and progress needs to made. I, for one, am under no illusions that if this venture fails, OAFC will eventually disappear into the dark recesses of non-league football, being played out in a crumbling edifice of a ground, or even worse, go out of business. Where will the "hardcore fans" be then? Where will you be? One more thing, look at this picture of BP what more incentive to move could anyone need? Thanks for posting your report, sheridans_world, you've obviously put a great deal of work into it and it is much appreciated. I have never claimed we can compete with City and United, but we shouldn't regard a club like Bolton as impossible to emulate. It is, after all, a similar town with a similar population and similar problems-the same 'changing dynamics' that you refer to, in fact. Why can they be successful while we have to constantly struggle and be third-rate? Nobody, least of all me, has suggested that Latics can ever be a permanetly top-flight club, however. Ultimately, Bolton probably can't, but at least they're having a proper go. We can, as has been proved, sustain oursleves in the second-tier given the right circumstances. It is, in fact, what we were promised by successive boards at BP. It is up to those who run clubs to find the means of bringing about success. The questions about capacity have been answered too many times to remember. Suffice it to say that the only clubs that build little stadiums from the off are those that expect to remain little clubs. Very few clubs in the entire FL actually come close to filling their grounds every home game. Ground capacities are about ambition, and always have been-just look at the size that football stadiums used to be. Did Latics regularly fill BP when it held 48000? Did City fill Maine Road every game when it held 84000? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Considering the clear financial crisis over the top of us it should not be crazy to suggest that leaving to your means (even if that is another ten years low down) could pay dividends as we are promoted due to lack of teams left running Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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