ghostofcecere Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 So aim low to grow ? Is that the thinking ? Like I said, Latics have the fans to match there ambition... Where was all the opposition to the Oldham Arena which was CLEARLY going to be a disaster... Looking at that list of stadiums / teams real provided I think I would swap Latics stadium, squad and lot in life for most of them with exception of Darlington and Huddersfield... It's not aiming low is it, with the likes of you and others not going, we are currently getting between 3000 - 4000 home fans. So a 12,000 capacity stadium with say a 3000 capacity away end alows us enough room to more than double the level of home support. Good expansion plans if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 It's not aiming low is it, with the likes of you and others not going, we are currently getting between 3000 - 4000 home fans. So a 12,000 capacity stadium with say a 3000 capacity away end alows us enough room to more than double the level of home support. Good expansion plans if you ask me. I wasn't asking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostofcecere Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I wasn't asking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) So aim low to grow ? Is that the thinking ? Like I said, Latics have the fans to match there ambition... Where was all the opposition to the Oldham Arena which was CLEARLY going to be a disaster... Looking at that list of stadiums / teams real provided I think I would swap Latics stadium, squad and lot in life for most of them with exception of Darlington and Huddersfield... Oooh man Citeh's on there - yes, we coud just "swap" with them - they get TTA and BP, we get CoMS and the Sheik. Re-name it as Oldham Arena and off we go - we'd be in the prem, they'd be in Lge 1. Or, you'd like us to swap with Southampton - ok, we build a new ground, get relegated (twice) and go into admin. -10 points at the start of the season in the conference. Brilliant. You're a genius. (sort of). Which companies are you a non-exec on. Just so i can make sure I don't invest in them like. Is it just a tax thing? Or do you have some dark hidden skills you bring to the table? Edited November 13, 2009 by real Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Oooh man Citeh's on there - yes, we coud just "swap" with them - they get TTA and BP, we get CoMS and the Sheik. Re-name it as Oldham Arena and off we go - we'd be in the prem, they'd be in Lge 1. Or, you'd like us to swap with Southampton - ok, we build a new ground, get relegated (twice) and go into admin. -10 points at the start of the season in the conference. Brilliant. You're a genius. (sort of). Which companies are you a non-exec on. Just so i can make sure I don't invest in them like. Is it just a tax thing? Or do you have some dark hidden skills you bring to the table? Your an arrogant arse... and your certainly not as bright as you think you are... Lets see where Southampton are in three years time and where Latics are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Your an arrogant arse... and your certainly not as bright as you think you are... Lets see where Southampton are in three years time and where Latics are... Look zilch, if you're going to use lines like:- "So aim low to grow ? Is that the thinking ? Like I said, Latics have the fans to match there ambition..." Than what do you expect as a reaction? Repeatedly you fail to address the key business points I have made; the comparisons against businesses that have followed the route you suggest and have (mainly) failed; the businesses I suggest that have followed more prudent routes and succeeded. Time and again I've given you business related examples and comparisons. I even gave you a clue about the titianic being a tragic event. Time and again you failed to address the points in a mature and sensible manner. You volunteered the data that you are a director (iirc) and a none-exec on 2 boards, so I think it's only reasonable to expect you to have some understanding of different business models. But instead, you say I "suck arse"; And yet you can't even find justification for that playground insult. You should give it a few days and come back with a more grown up approach. Seriously, you might have something worthwhile to contribute if you take a step back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveoafc Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Had an idea for half-time entertainment, We could have a debating table put in the centre circle and REAL and 0000 go at it hammer and tongs for 15 mins! Gets my vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 It matters a great deal, because if the stayaways fall into your: Category 1. People who delight in the fact that crowds have been low for so long and would like to keep it that way. ..... then there really is not much hope. Wheras if they fall into : Category 2 People looking at the kind of attendances we managed last time we were flying high in the division above and seeking to get back to days like those..... then keeping the Faith might lead to better times. Haven't we established before that stayaways will only flock to BP if there's something special going on on the pitch? The club has tried schemes to get more people in to watch routine third division football. It didn't work and never will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) Had an idea for half-time entertainment, We could have a king size bed put in the centre circle and REAL and 0000 go at it hammer and tongs for 15 mins! Gets my vote Edited November 13, 2009 by garcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Whats the point of having a 14,000 seat stadium? So we can have another 2,000 empty seats? I believe it's an RSPB requirement to provide the maximum area for pigeon deposits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) Look zilch, if you're going to use lines like:- "So aim low to grow ? Is that the thinking ? Like I said, Latics have the fans to match there ambition..." Than what do you expect as a reaction? I don't know... Maybe the acceptance that I had a difference of opinion ? Repeatedly you fail to address the key business points I have made; the comparisons against businesses that have followed the route you suggest and have (mainly) failed; the businesses I suggest that have followed more prudent routes and succeeded. Time and again I've given you business related examples and comparisons. I even gave you a clue about the titianic being a tragic event. Time and again you failed to address the points in a mature and sensible manner. You have made a couple of good points. You have constantly attacked me over one or two gaffs. Besides that mate you have not made many other valid points just a :censored: load of opinion. As for mature and sensible...please... Your on thin ice... You volunteered the data that you are a director (iirc) and a none-exec on 2 boards, so I think it's only reasonable to expect you to have some understanding of different business models. I understand the business I work in... and the other two none-exec roles (now down to 1) are in the same area... and it seems only yourself that keeps going on about it to be fair, I think I mentioned it once... I certainly would not claim to be business man of the year and have never made that claim. But instead, you say I "suck arse"; And yet you can't even find justification for that playground insult. You should give it a few days and come back with a more grown up approach. Seriously, you might have something worthwhile to contribute if you take a step back. Again thin ice... The way you hold yourself stinks... Not that I am better but dont go holding yourself to highly fella... The arrogant way you dismiss peoples ideas is laughable. You did it with other posters. Sometimes you make good point...other times your talking wollox like the rest of us Edited November 13, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Had an idea for half-time entertainment, We could have a debating table put in the centre circle and REAL and 0000 go at it hammer and tongs for 15 mins! Gets my vote With CJ in 0000's corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) I've just been perusing the details of some clubs that have built shiny new grounds. Southampton Leicester Coventry Derby Stoke Darlington Doncaster Hull Huddersfield Reading MK Dons Swansea Millwall Most of these have gone for "big ambitious grounds" as you rightly say. What's the achievement record like on these big shiny ambitious grounds? Southampton - relegated & financial problems Leicester - relegated & financial problems Coventry - relegated & financial problems Derby - relegation troubles - went to the prem, came back down Sunderland - relegation troubles - holding up Middlesborough - relegated Stoke - Sucess - premiership! Darlington - oh dear - got nowhere, financially troubled Citeh - up and down until the sheik arrived Hull - Sucess - premiership Huddersfield - relegated Reading - up and down MK Dons - 3rd division Swansea - built new stadium after promotion to this level Millwall - up and down - lower than when built Well, what a rosy picture. Most have gone down a level since building "ambitious" stadiums. Perhaps a more business minded approach would have been wiser? What a load of absolute nonsense. You're mixing up a variety of clubs with a variety of problems and trying to claim that all those problems are due to the fact that they didn't build smaller stadiums. You only have to look at what you say about City to realise what piddle you're talking. Far from being 'up and down until the Sheik arrived,' they haven't been seriously troubled (or troubled at all) by relegation ever since they were promoted under Keegan while still at Maine Road. They came close to filling their new stadium for the first few seasons in it, lost about 5-6000 regular fans, and again come close to filling it every game. The stadium hardly features. It's merely a backdrop. Same as it is with most of the other clubs you mention, no matter how they're faring on the pitch. Anyway, didn't you try this one before-or was that one of the other nodding dogs? Nobody has claimed that building a stadium of a certain size guarantees success. Try rerading what people actually say, why not? Trying to find escuses for lack of ambition is addling your brain. Edited November 13, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 What a load of absolute nonsense. You're mixing up a variety of clubs with a variety of problems and trying to claim that all those problems are due to the fact that they didn't build small stadiums. +1 Exactly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Whats the point of having a 14,000 seat stadium? So we can have another 2,000 empty seats? I would suspect that, the bigger the stadium, the higher the general running costs what with maintenance etc. And some people are moaning for wasting money on Colbeck..... For me, aslong as the stadium can be expanded, I'd be happy with an 8,000 seat stadium. I mean, how often in a season are we gonna get anywhere near capacity - judging by the fact that Leeds are practically promoted already, I'd say once, when the 'mighty' Huddersfield come to town with their 'massive' away following..... Try reading the posts where I've excplained why there will never, ever be an extension. Are some of you really this dense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Oooh man Citeh's on there - yes, we coud just "swap" with them - they get TTA and BP, we get CoMS and the Sheik. Re-name it as Oldham Arena and off we go - we'd be in the prem, they'd be in Lge 1. That would be no good because we would only be tenants of the Council and subject to politicians' whims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveoafc Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Haven't we established before that stayaways will only flock to BP if there's something special going on on the pitch? The club has tried schemes to get more people in to watch routine third division football. It didn't work and never will. Usually when the crowd has crept up for a particular match ( royle homecoming for example ) We turn in a poor effort and the inituative is lost and it's back to square one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 It's not aiming low is it, with the likes of you and others not going, we are currently getting between 3000 - 4000 home fans. So a 12,000 capacity stadium with say a 3000 capacity away end alows us enough room to more than double the level of home support. Good expansion plans if you ask me. Don't you realise that in constantly basing everything on the assumption that there'll only be 3000-4000 home fans in the proposed new stadium, you are sharing in the club's downscaling project? The reason they are limiting capacity to only 12000 is that they are assuming that this division is as good as it gets. Even though we were still occasionally getting gates of over 12000 in this division before they knackered BP. You are correct though-such limited ambitions do guarantee that we will only see 3000-4000 home fans inside the new stadium (if it gets built.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Look zilch, if you're going to use lines like:- "So aim low to grow ? Is that the thinking ? Like I said, Latics have the fans to match there ambition..." Than what do you expect as a reaction? Repeatedly you fail to address the key business points I have made; the comparisons against businesses that have followed the route you suggest and have (mainly) failed; the businesses I suggest that have followed more prudent routes and succeeded. Time and again I've given you business related examples and comparisons. I even gave you a clue about the titianic being a tragic event. Time and again you failed to address the points in a mature and sensible manner. You volunteered the data that you are a director (iirc) and a none-exec on 2 boards, so I think it's only reasonable to expect you to have some understanding of different business models. But instead, you say I "suck arse"; And yet you can't even find justification for that playground insult. You should give it a few days and come back with a more grown up approach. Seriously, you might have something worthwhile to contribute if you take a step back. You haven't made any 'business points.' You've performed contortions to excuse the sheer lack of ambition that a stadium with a (permanent, I repeat permanent) 12000 capacity represents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) You haven't made any 'business points.' You've performed contortions to excuse the sheer lack of ambition that a stadium with a (permanent, I repeat permanent) 12000 capacity represents. I really shouldn't.....but...... Morrisons, Tesco, M&S, Asda etc. You choose clubs as the business model I choose successful supermarkets. You say my list was random - find some others, tell me how they are doing compared to when they built a new stadium. You could even check out their gates pre-new stadium and compare it to the size of stadium they built. Give it a go; it might provide some interesting data? Edited November 13, 2009 by real Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martjs Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 You must have been as confused as I was by the "hammer and tongs" comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveoafc Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 You must have been as confused as I was by the "hammer and tongs" comment. It's an expression ( maybe local, i don't know ) Basically it meant they could have an heated debate for our entertainment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I really shouldn't.....but...... Morrisons, Tesco, M&S, Asda etc. You choose clubs as the business model I choose successful supermarkets. You say my list was random - find some others, tell me how they are doing compared to when they built a new stadium. You could even check out their gates pre-new stadium and compare it to the size of stadium they built. Give it a go; it might provide some interesting data? You don't seem to realise, despite my constantly having to spell it out, that nobody claims that a stadium of a certain size guarantees success. What it does is reflect where a club realistically expects to be. I don't think that if Latics really meant to establish themselves in the Championship, and eventually challenge for the top six, 16000 is unrealistic, especially when you consider the crowds we got last time we were successful in that division, in an era when attendances in general were lower. 12000 merely demonstrates that the club doesn't think that it's feasible to expect to recreate days like those. Many fans seem to agree, if this board is anything to go by, but we are seeing, with gates falling to an alarming level, that being bogged down in this division not only fails to ignite the town-it is driving away hordes of the faithful too. If the aim is merely to survive at this level, with the kind of occasional powder puff attempt at promotion that we've already seen, then, yes, 12000 may well be sufficient (even if we have topped that number on several occasions even while languishing at this level.) So certain clubs have built big stadiums and failed to be successful. The attendances of the likes of Derby, Leicester, and even Southampton (who did indeed fill their new stadium every home game before the wheels came off, after years of missing out on millions in income because The Dell was too small) seem to be holding up rather well. The attendances of most clubs, after all, do seem to rise after they build new grounds. As 0000 says, I'd bet on them to rise again before I'd bet on Latics. But the problems of any given club are specific to that club, and rarely primarily to do with having built a new stadium. There are, too, other clubs to look at who built stadiums in line with their ambitions and largely fulfilled them. As I'm always saying, the obvious model for us would be Bolton, a similar club in a similar town who built a new stadium, saw attendances rise and attained success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martjs Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 It's an expression ( maybe local, i don't know ) Basically it meant they could have an heated debate for our entertainment. From Wikipedia: The phrase "hammer and tongs" means "with great energy and force", often phrased "to go at it with hammer and tongs". The origins of this phrase is from blacksmithing, where tongs are used during forging to hold the hot iron as it is hammered into shape. Yeah, fair comment mate but, let's just say, it's sometimes used to describe something that people are hoping one day to read about (or watch) in the 100+ page thread on here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcmetty Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Screw what other clubs have done. Our aim should be financial stability. With that, eventually, will come success on the pitch. Other clubs will speculate and go bust. With our current fanbase we're not going to able to afford to pay for a squad of superstars, so we should be investing in youth, and hoping Tony P produces us some stars for the future. If we're stable off the pitch, and improving on it, the results will come, and we can start to regrow the fanbase. I think people forget that big stadia cost more to maintain on a week to week basis. Nothing wrong with having a stadium that to start with isn't huge. As others have pointed out - even at the 12000 level we're likely to fill it less than once a season. It can be expanded - that's the key. Why gamble? Plan for the long term - we want a club our grandkids are going to be able to support, not one that goes bust trying to hit the big time too quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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