garcon Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 ?????????????????? Thats one more than Lampard and Gerrard in 90 mins!!!!!!!!!!!!! True - I'm not saying he was any worse than the rest of the clowns. But he's older and playing in a part time amateur league. He can't run any more. And his delivery from set pieces (his best asset) was poor. I was always a Beckham fan. But he should call time now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astottie Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 ?????????????????? Thats one more than Lampard and Gerrard in 90 mins!!!!!!!!!!!!! how can you say that? You're not listening to the right people mate. They are both world class players , part of the golden generation! Get a grip!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 (edited) True - I'm not saying he was any worse than the rest of the clowns. But he's older and playing in a part time amateur league. He can't run any more. And his delivery from set pieces (his best asset) was poor. I was always a Beckham fan. But he should call time now. The FACT is!! He didnt start, they brought him on at half time to do something and he did, he created a goal!!! What more can you ask ?? If you want to attack someone attack Gerrad and Lampard who have done NOTHING through the whole campaign. Beckham has produced and produced for england for years and years. These two havent. Sorry but I think attacking Beckham is a cheap shot. Edited November 21, 2007 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 how can you say that? You're not listening to the right people mate. They are both world class players , part of the golden generation! Get a grip!! I was about to snap and then I reaised you was thaking the piss You almost had me :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astottie Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Never thought I would see this!!! 'He gambled his position and England's participation on two huge selections and dropping Robinson and Beckham proved catastrophic.' The BBC don't you just love 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrabanana Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 The FACT is!! He didnt start, they brought him on at half time to do something and he did, he created a goal!!! What more can you ask ?? If you want to attack someone attack Gerrad and Lampard who have done NOTHING through the whole campaign. Beckham has produced and produced for england for years and years. These two havent. Sorry but I think attacking Beckham is a cheap shot. I agree. Beckham came on the pitch and did his job, love to see him make it to 100 caps after everything he's done for England Lampard and Gerrard were both completely anonymous and it just shows that they can't play together and personally if I had to chose who to drop then I'd drop Lampard no matter how well he does for Chelski. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I agree. Beckham came on the pitch and did his job, love to see him make it to 100 caps after everything he's done for England Lampard and Gerrard were both completely anonymous and it just shows that they can't play together and personally if I had to chose who to drop then I'd drop Lampard no matter how well he does for Chelski. I would drop both!! Nither have produced in years!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I can't stand McClown but it isn't just his fault. It goes way back to basics, the grass roots of the game are terrible, kids play on full size pitches and are not coached. Our players are technically not good enough, they may be able to run through brick walls but they can't kick a ball at a wall with both feet. Maradona would have been rejected by the English system for being too small to play as most coaches want to play the 6 footers. Defenders are told to get rid rather than play. When we get a ball playing centre back it is a novelty. Talent isn't nutured it is expected to be there at an early age, kids aren't allowed to get comfortable on the ball they have to get rid rather than shield and play an easy pass. There is no artistry in the English game, this is why players like Zola stand out so much in the Premiership, we will never have an English player like this under the current system. The only current player who comes close is Joe Cole. SWP is only considered as he is "fast" which to some is more important than being a good footballer. Power, pace and passion is the English way and it has failed for 41 years. Technique, touch and talent has to be the way forward. Sadly we will just sack McClown, appoint O'Neil and paper over the cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astottie Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I was about to snap and then I reaised you was thaking the piss You almost had me :P It's late, you are excused and we are subjected to a lot of crap out there!!! duh duh dhuh Alan Greeeeeeeen!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I can't stand McClown but it isn't just his fault. It goes way back to basics, the grass roots of the game are terrible, kids play on full size pitches and are not coached. Our players are technically not good enough, they may be able to run through brick walls but they can't kick a ball at a wall with both feet. Maradona would have been rejected by the English system for being too small to play as most coaches want to play the 6 footers. Defenders are told to get rid rather than play. When we get a ball playing centre back it is a novelty. Talent isn't nutured it is expected to be there at an early age, kids aren't allowed to get comfortable on the ball they have to get rid rather than shield and play an easy pass. There is no artistry in the English game, this is why players like Zola stand out so much in the Premiership, we will never have an English player like this under the current system. The only current player who comes close is Joe Cole. SWP is only considered as he is "fast" which to some is more important than being a good footballer. Power, pace and passion is the English way and it has failed for 41 years. Technique, touch and talent has to be the way forward. Sadly we will just sack McClown, appoint O'Neil and paper over the cracks. Exactly, McClown should go....but the FA should go first....piss poor..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 (edited) I'm not having a go at Beckham. It would be a travesty if he wasn't allowed to collect his 100th cap (in much the way Lineker lost the chance to be top goalscorer). It would be an even greater travesty if this debacle was his last England game. He created the one goal we deserved tonight, that's one more assist than anyone else managed, and if nothing else I think his presence at least lifted the fans for a while. But I'm afraid we now have to accept that we should look beyond him for the future - he will never regain the fitness he once had, he will never play 90 minutes at the highest level. Gerrard was shocking. But my special prize for humiliating the shirt goes to Lampard. The fact he managed to keep it (his shirt) clean says it all. And the fact he got man of the match says everything you need to know about the cockney s that go to Wembley. Edited November 21, 2007 by garcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluearmyof1 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 the pitch made for a poor game, but that's no excuse. Anyone know why they didn't close the roof for the NFL game to stop the rain messing up the pitch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 the pitch made for a poor game, but that's no excuse. Anyone know why they didn't close the roof for the NFL game to stop the rain messing up the pitch? The pitch didn't seem to bother Croatia much. It's shocking, embarrassing even, but as you say it's no excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrabanana Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I'm not having a go at Beckham. It would be a travesty if he wasn't allowed to collect his 100th cap (in much the way Lineker lost the chance to be top goalscorer). It would be an even greater travesty if this debacle was his last England game. He created the one goal we deserved tonight, that's one more assist than anyone else managed, and if nothing else I think his presence at least lifted the fans for a while. But I'm afraid we now have to accept that we should look beyond him for the future - he will never regain the fitness he once had, he will never play 90 minutes at the highest level. Gerrard was shocking. But my special prize for humiliating the shirt goes to Lampard. The fact he managed to keep it (his shirt) clean says it all. And the fact he got man of the match says everything you need to know about the cockney s that go to Wembley. Lampard got man of the match? what for? Cos he scored a penalty? I was panacking incase he was gonna miss! Should have been Beckham on the scoresheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 the pitch made for a poor game, but that's no excuse. Anyone know why they didn't close the roof for the NFL game to stop the rain messing up the pitch? Because the roof at wembley dosent cover the pitch just the seats. It can be pulled back to let sun light on to the pitch but it dosent extend far enogh to cover the pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluearmyof1 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Because the roof at wembley dosent cover the pitch just the seats. It can be pulled back to let sun light on to the pitch but it dosent extend far enogh to cover the pitch. jesus. what a load of rubbish. didn't realise oldham council were involved with building the wembley stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 (edited) Because the roof at wembley dosent cover the pitch just the seats. It can be pulled back to let sun light on to the pitch but it dosent extend far enogh to cover the pitch. More genius from the football association, that pitch and the lack of a proper roof, and the fact that they built a national stadium at truly gargantuan expense after several years of successfully playing matches at established grounds around the country. As for "McLaren" and "Lampard" and "Gerrard" and "Robinson" (and now "Carson") and "Cashley" and "Terry" and "Owen" and all the other pampered fairies, good bloody riddance. PS How come Carson (before tonight) had such a good reputation when all he'd done is conceded goals for Charlton? Edited November 21, 2007 by 24hoursfromtulsehill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 jesus. what a load of rubbish. didn't realise oldham council were involved with building the wembley stadium. I agree! To get the UEFA five star stadium rating your stadium just has to cover the seats and that was Wembleys focus.... It is pritty poor.... Anyway, the pitch is always the same for both teams and if mutlimillion pound footballers need to blame the pitch then you know its been a bad bad night.....england plauers simply are over rated.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 One of the easiest groups to qualify from, yet we managed to balls it up. Management and Players just not good enough, more so the players. I have not seen a more wasteful player in possession than Gerrard the amount of time he just smacks it first time to the opposition is crazy. 1 decision that baffled me throwing Scott Carson in at the deep end in such an important game, and also behind a very inexperienced defence apart from Campbell. Like Sheridan dropping Pogliacomi for Josh Bell in a playoff Semi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 Selection was all wrong and so were the tactics. Did you see the bench after we got to 2-2 telling the players to defend?! Whate were they thinking. I think it's a given McClaren will be sacked, but who shoudl take over? I think the vast majority were against the appointment of McClaren, partly because he has never achieved anything at club level on his own (even with huge financial backing), but also because it seemed like there were so many other better choices on offer at the time. Just off the top of my head I can remember Allardyce, Curbishley and Pearce as 3 of the contenders at the time, all of whom were arguably better choices for the job. The main reason McClaren was picked was because he was the safe option. Now looking forward, personally I would prefer a European coach, someone who can identify the weaknesses that the English game has. We all enjoy the fast pace that we see in the English game, but unfortunately that isn't the way that football is played on the continent and indeed throughout the world. It's all well and good saying well why do English teams do well in Europe then and bla bla bla, but in reality it is becaue they rely heavily on European players who can adapt to both games. In the Premiership you can give the ball away relatively cheaply because the opposition give you it straight back in a similar manner. That is the nature of playing direct football from the back. However our lack of technical ability and at times understanding of the tactical side of the game is found out time and again at international level when it is 11 Englishmen being forced to play a game at a slower tempo. Even against the Macedonians it was evident we lacked the quality to keep possession and build patiently from the back. We claim to have the best players in the world, but when it comes down to it we are severely lacking. Personally I think it is a problem which stems from how players are scouted at a young age (at least from when I was young). Players who showed the technical ability and natural football brain who would be rewarded on the continent were overlooked for youngsters who were particularly strong physically, with the idea that big lads could be coached to play football. I'm now 21 and this was definitely how things were done when I was playing Sunday League although things may have changed in recent years. I think this has started to show on an international level as it is plainly obvious to me that technically the European nations who we are supposedly on the same level as are by far and away out of our league (looking at Spain and France etc). Even teams like Croatia who our media and pundits claim we are better than seem to have the edge on us. They keep the ball better, they use it better, they don't give it away cheaply and they make us work for openings. All the evidence imo points to the fact that we just aren't as good as we think we are and that England needs to move forward with football into the modern game. We are living in the past where physicality and determination are enough. That is no longer the case and we need to realise that quickly. A Eorpoean manager like Mourinho might be the breath of fresh air that we need. We can't keep picking the 'best 11' and forcing them to play a system. We need to pick players that will fit into the system that the coach wants to play. We need massive changes imo but then again we have done for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_ragg1984 Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 "We're simply a better team. I admire your team and your players but my team is a much better team." Its a shame but we have to agree with him. They looked miles better than us in every single department. McLaren will and should take a lot of the blame because he is the manager, but its about time that people actually started to realise its the players fault. Steven Gerrard is a world beater for Liverpool but he is shocking for England. The same goes for Lampard with Chelsea. With tonights game, McLaren will be slated for picking Carson, but its hardly the managers fault that he let the first one in. And no one can say the manager is at fault because the left back cannot play offside. But ultimately, the manager has to take the rap, and I expect him to be gone soon. In reality though, what difference will changing the manager make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 With tonights game, McLaren will be slated for picking Carson, but its hardly the managers fault that he let the first one in. If Sheidan had chossen to field a rookie goal keeper in the play off final and thast rookie keep had done the same mistake would you be making this argument? If Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 If Sheidan had chossen to field a rookie goal keeper in the play off final and thast rookie keep had done the same mistake would you be making this argument? If I think that depends on whether he had David James and Paul Robinson as other possible selections. Personally I think David James had earned another chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 I think that depends on whether he had David James and Paul Robinson as other possible selections. Personally I think David James had earned another chance. Come on! You have to think of it in context!!! IF shez had a choice between Pogs, Croissely or some kid and he went for the kid and it went to im usre the fans would be up in arms.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 Come on! You have to think of it in context!!! IF shez had a choice between Pogs, Croissely or some kid and he went for the kid and it went to im usre the fans would be up in arms.... If Shez picked some kid out of the blue for a big game and it went wrong I would blame Shez. I would say it was a poor decision to throw the kid in there. I'm not really sure which side of the argument you are on to be honest. McClaren has to take the blame for putting Carson in, but at the same time he can't take the blame for the fact that our players aren't technically as good as the majority of nations on the continent regardless of what our media tries to feed us. McClaren didn't play to out strengths and probably lost us the game by trying to defend a 2-2 when we had pulled it back but the simple fact is we just aren't good enough on the whole. Team selection was bad (as it has been for years) though. If you are going to put the defeat solely down to the goalkeeper then yes McClaren should take the blame for his poor judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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