nzlatic

I kind of agree with you about sticking to decisions but can't help think it's all a bit... club doesn't listen to fans, "club should listen to fans", club listens to fans, "club shouldn't listen to fans".

Ha, my dad knew him. At least I presume it was him, he often talked about someone he knew who played for Charlton in that cup final. I think they knew each other pre-war. I didn't realise he went on to manage Latics though.

Played against Wes Wilkinson a few times in 5aside. He loved to take the piss. Also, I went to school with Thomas Evans who used to play in goal for Sheff Utd, Palace and Scunthorpe. Had a blinder in a Wembley play off final once I believe. He never used to like going in goals at lunch time and as it was my ball I got given the duty once of telling him to play in nets or :censored: off. I like to take a bit of credit for that Wembley performance.

Doncaster Rovers were in a shocking state, relegated from the league in a dilapidated ground with crowds of a few hundred. They sorted themselves out and were getting crowds of several thousand when getting promoted again. They've done alright since. BUT there are probably plenty of other examples of teams going down and staying down. People were probably having this discussion when we last got relegated. Here we are 17 years later. We need to stay up, desperately.

I've been having a think about this issue over the last couple of days and the problem I have with the trust at the moment is that I have no idea what it's there for anymore. Playershare is doing well, especially more so recently because of 2 things. Direction and promotion. There's a clear message about what it is there to achieve - if you contribute that will have a direct influence on the playing staff. And the more contributions the better calibre of player we can get in. Simple to grasp and easy to donate thanks to the efforts of the people involved in promoting and running it and also the ideas of others to help promote it. Johnson admits he made a mistake with it this season but imagine what an advert for playershare it would be if we could grow the fund to pay for Harkins next season. Congratulations to the trust for setting it up in the first place but I can't help but wonder if it would be doing as well if it had stayed within the trust. This is by no means a personal attack on anyone involved in the trust. I joined it years ago when the message was clear - we need a fans representative on the board to prevent anything like the he who must not be named situation happening again. There was promotion, drives to raise funds and ultimately the goal was achieved. But what now? I'm not sure what the aim is. Or what it does for that matter. What I'd expect is fans getting a say in the running of the club. Not day to day, not even a deciding vote, but to have their opinions canvassed and concerns raised at trust meetings and have those opinions fed back to the club. I wouldn't expect minutes from club board meetings, or player salary details, but to use one example of late... why is the manager taking to twitter to ask the fans what they think about moving the home end? Not knocking Johnson, credit to him for asking, but surely this is something that the trust should be taking the lead in? Also, what about the new stand - when this was being designed and planned for this was another opportunity for the fans to be engaged through the trust to canvas opinion on size, style, what should go in it. Again, I'm not saying that fans should have the deciding say but at least let them be heard - let the club present their vision and let the fans debate it with them in a proper meeting. And for those who can't attend meetings, there are plenty of other ways for the trust to connect with fans. New shirt design, discussing what offers or non-offers may have come in for the club, there are a lot of things that could be discussed but as far as I'm aware, aren't. All these sort of things would give the fans a feeling of being connected and part of the club. It all feels very "us and them" at the moment. As this playershare drive has shown, fans are more than willing to help and contribute, they just need to know what's being asked of them.

I agree with what you're saying. I guess the point I was making was that I don't believe changing the team has been a big reason for poor form, more a result of it. The reason for poor form is covered a lot by the other questions you asked which the manager has to take a large responsibility for rather than this "tinkerman" tag he's got.

How many times this season on the "team for next week" threads that come up after every game have the majority of replies been that there should be no changes? We keep losing and/or playing :censored:. So I'm not surprised there have been regular changes. Teams at the top make less changes than teams at the bottom mainly because they don't need to - players are on form and merit keeping their places.

It's hard to compare, but the losing finalists had Dean Brill in net. And they're 5th in the Premier league.

I'll donate £20 too when we stay up.

Me too, for pretty much the same reason! Plus all the promotion work done on here. Well done to everyone involved.

I don't have the quote either but I think he said that it helped them as it energised Baxter or "puffed his chest out" as I think the quote was. Which was probably true. And at the time I was thinking the same and questioning why we did it. But he didn't say we lost because of it, that's different entirely. Just like "we lost because of the ball boys" isn't what he said, nor was "we lost because of the fans". Also, did he say "my tactics were working great until then" or something along the lines of us playing well? He's been critical of a few things and that's up for debate if you want but he hasn't said the things you're slagging him off for.

If you show me a quote from him saying that then I'll agree with you.

I was going to respond to that part of the post until I saw this. Couldn't sum it up any better really!

The phrase "on the cheap" keeps cropping up. Is there money available to the club that isn't spent on either the day to day running or the playing staff? Where is this money supposedly coming from and where is it going to? What is the black hole? Or who's pockets are being lined? Doesn't the club have to show all this in published accounts? It's so easy to trot these same old accusations out but I don't see any evidence being put forward. Happy to say I'm wrong if someone can prove otherwise?

True if there were no clauses in the contract based on poor performance. If there are no clauses then it's a stupid contract. If there are clauses that say prevent us losing him for nothing if he comes good and prevent him costing us a fortune if he has to go - then it's a pretty astute bit of business.

I'm sure they do. But watching Preston on Saturday, they may get promoted but would come straight back down in my opinion without a major overhaul of the team. There's too much quality in the Championship and they would get found out quite easily. Even we weren't all that far off getting something out of that game.

I do think we have a bit of an obsession in this country with rejecting players too quickly because of their size. But it is a bit of a problem for us when just about every match up on the pitch is won by the opposition in terms of size and strength. A real oversight in recruitment.

There would be a drop off in away attendances as there are fewer big clubs in the league below. Would we have to reduce season ticket prices? Maybe. The new stand may help but would funding for this drop off if we were relegated? I'm not against us going down purely from the idea of us possibly challenging at the top next year - for something different if nothing else! But there's just far too much doubt about what'd happen if we did. I don't think it'd be catastrophic but I do think there would be enough change financially to mean we wouldn't be sure of a promotion challenge and expectations/ambitions could change over time. Imagine 17 years in league 2!

It's not like Gregory went to Crewe on a free and is banging them in. No other club thinks he's worth the asking price so maybe Murray wasn't far off the mark.

True. It's a shame more ex players don't get in to refereeing. Would help with stuff like this and diving etc.

Fair enough, sounded like we were going down the road of cuffing everyone's hands behind their backs! I still think it shouldn't be necessary. If you put your hands up when facing a cross then you're risking handball. If they're by your side then it comes down to whether you've got time to avoid contact. Refs should be able to make that call.

What you're basically saying is that refs can't tell the difference between deliberate and accidental handball so players should run around with their hands behind their backs just in case? Not the same as not jumping into tackles.

I for one am sick of Johnson the tinkerman and his team of undroppable mates. Love the OWTB oxymorons.

Genuine question as I don't know and can't be arsed finding out but what is a good number of shots to have had? And what midfielders in our league have achieved that?

Not sure I agree that he doesn't get forward enough because he's regularly around the box instrumental in attacks. The problem might be that he's not doing a duxbury and getting on the end of crosses in the box. But we don't have that kind of midfielder.