garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 We're paying for half a century of neglect and under investment by government in the country's infrastructure. Public transport should at least be efficient, yet it isn't. The only way authorities can make it more expensive for commuters to drive into city centres than use public transport - even at today's fuel prices - is to charge extortionate amounts for parking and/or introduce congestion charges. Surely something is badly wrong when the sums add up that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 We're paying for half a century of neglect and under investment by government in the country's infrastructure. Public transport should at least be efficient, yet it isn't. The only way authorities can make it more expensive for commuters to drive into city centres than use public transport - even at today's fuel prices - is to charge extortionate amounts for parking and/or introduce congestion charges. Surely something is badly wrong when the sums add up that way? I dont disagree at all the Governments have failed over the years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 You really didnt get my point... I'm beginning to realise that this, and "you're spinning my words" are your stock responses for when you've been found out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I'm beginning to realise that this, and "you're spinning my words" are your stock responses for when you've been found out. Nothing I can say to that really is there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I dont disagree at all the Governments have failed over the years... But why should the motorist pay even more to paper over the cracks of that failure when only a tiny proportion of fuel and car taxation is spent on transport infrastructure as it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 You really didnt get my point... And also business deals are still with the shaking of hands.... Not down the pit head they aren't. But a more relevant point - which I did raise before but you ignored - do you email your clients for you putative internet business bus routes to advise them how to get to your office? What's good for the goose... Not that you'll see this of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 But why should the motorist pay even more to paper over the cracks of that failure when only a tiny proportion of fuel and car taxation is spent on transport infrastructure as it is? The government should of done much more but to think the responsibility is solely the governments is madness. People need to take responsibility for there own choices and actions instead of saying its all the governments fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Maybe if the government was honest with us about the true costs of running the country we might accept taxation levels that would make it work. But there's another point here. One that I think is a fundamental flaw in the YES argument. There seems to be a myth that "pro car" people like me would resist commuting by public transport until we're priced out of our cars. It simply doesn't work like that. I get very little driving pleasure out of my journey to and from work, and like countless others if there was a frequent, efficient, cheaper and reasonably quick alternative for my commute I would use it, without the incentive (or otherwise) of a congestion charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I voted no and will continue to do so. I do not drive and i do not want the Metrolink either. Anyone who travels on a train to Manchester knows come December 4 services an hour 2 of which are express ones. Also plans to put more stops in resulting in longer journeys. I am all for the Metrolink but no in Oldham as we simply do not need it. Err, Tom. The Metrolink is coming to Oldham anyway; funding is already in place. It just means if the YES wins then Metrolink will get extended to Manchester Airport and through Oldham town centre (Rather than around it on the existing line) But yeah, go vote NO anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Oooh, yeah. And one notable absence from this 20+ page debate is Thetramdriver! What's his take on all this kerfuffle. Who's he voting for?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Maybe if the government was honest with us about the true costs of running the country we might accept taxation levels that would make it work. A honest MP? The concept is good, I doubt it could be delivered though... But there's another point here. One that I think is a fundamental flaw in the YES argument. There seems to be a myth that "pro car" people like me would resist commuting by public transport until we're priced out of our cars. It simply doesn't work like that. I get very little driving pleasure out of my journey to and from work, and like countless others if there was a frequent, efficient, cheaper and reasonably quick alternative for my commute I would use it, without the incentive (or otherwise) of a congestion charge. While that might be true for you I reject any suggestion that its true that the majority (50%+) of car drivers dont have access to reasonable public transport... Where do you live by the way ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Oooh, yeah. And one notable absence from this 20+ page debate is Thetramdriver! What's his take on all this kerfuffle. Who's he voting for?? I bet he drives to work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M_OAFC Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Aye. Silly me for showing at least a bit of empathy towards the worker, hey? OK, next question because there's a lot of going in circles going on about this now. If the people win the vote against it? What happens then? A new, improvised plan to vote on? Or we all just forget it and watch as Manchester falls into traffic meltdown and a massive hole in the ozone layer is blown right open 15 miles above Piccadilly station? Good god the ozone layer, there's a blast from the past. What the hell happened to that? I remember when that was going to kill us all but it's been kind of muscled off the front pages by global warming these days hasn't it. It used to be CFC's that were going cause armageddon but now it's CO2. Has that hole just closed up then or is it going to make a come back when everybodys gets bored of carbon emissions and what not? I feel quite sorry for the ozone layer, I think we should do a spot of "rickrolling" and bring it back to prominence. Before we know it it'll be rivalling Astley for MTV awards. Anyway, back on topic and it's a dam good question is that. If I was to hazard a guess I would say that after a bit of wound licking somebody would eventually come back a year or two later with some revised proposals. You'd be able to knock me down with a feather if the new proposals included improvements in public transport on the kind of scale that Greater Manchester actually needs to really make a difference. You can live and work in nigh on any 2 parts of London you like and not require a car to get there but to put a system on the scale of the tube in place in Manchester, be it underground, overground, wombling free, or whatever, would cost such an anstronomical amount that unfortunately I just can't see any government ever having the courage to channel that level of resources in to any single venture, let alone one that only benefits such a small percentage of the national population. But there's a reasonable chance they might come back with something that offers a small help. If they do that and it doesn't punish people to whom it is of no use then I dare say they'll get it through. My suggestion, as you have strongly hinted at yourself, would be to focus on the centre of Manchester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Good god the ozone layer, there's a blast from the past. What the hell happened to that? I remember when that was going to kill us all but it's been kind of muscled off the front pages by global warming these days hasn't it. It used to be CFC's that were going cause armageddon but now it's CO2. Has that hole just closed up then or is it going to make a come back when everybodys gets bored of carbon emissions and what not? I feel quite sorry for the ozone layer, I think we should do a spot of "rickrolling" and bring it back to prominence. Before we know it it'll be rivalling Astley for MTV awards. Oh aye. Could do with a nice spot of rebranding for that Ozone I think. You know, something along the lines of what BMW did for the Mini Cooper for example..... Oh. Thanks for your answer to my question by the way. Yes, all sounds plausable and probable that. Edited December 3, 2008 by Frankly Mr Shankly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 While that might be true for you I reject any suggestion that its true that the majority (50%+) of car drivers dont have access to reasonable public transport... Well being as neither of us will ever be able to provide reliable statistics suggesting one or the other, we're a bit stuck there aren't we. Where do you live by the way ? I live in Cheshire, my commute is approximately 7 miles along a roughly arterial route towards Manchester. Travelling by train would entail walking about 4 miles a day. There is a bus but, even taking into account I can more or less arrive and leave when I want, there is one (unreliable) service at a suitable time in the morning and two in the evening. Oh, and it takes an hour. And costs more than my petrol. I should add that I don't live in some rural backwater either. I live in a depressingly normal residential suburb of a Cheshire town. The kind of area I'd suggest the majority tend to live. The kind of area that should be well served by public transport! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Well being as neither of us will ever be able to provide reliable statistics suggesting one or the other, we're a bit stuck there aren't we. I live in Cheshire, my commute is approximately 7 miles along a roughly arterial route towards Manchester. Travelling by train would entail walking about 4 miles a day. There is a bus but, even taking into account I can more or less arrive and leave when I want, there is one (unreliable) service at a suitable time in the morning and two in the evening. Oh, and it takes an hour. And costs more than my petrol. I should add that I don't live in some rural backwater either. I live in a depressingly normal residential suburb of a Cheshire town. The kind of area I'd suggest the majority tend to live. The kind of area that should be well served by public transport! Why dont you just name the town ? So you do have viable transport available.... How can you deem it unreliable if you dont use it... A typical situation... Edited December 3, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Why should I tell the internet where I live? The exact location isn't even relevant! And in what way is what I've described viable? I know it's unreliable because I tried it. Edited December 3, 2008 by garcon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Why should I tell the internet where I live? Im hardly asking for your postcode and house number I am.... Why the secrecy? And in what way is what I've described viable? You have a bus that gets you to and from work... You say its unreliable... You don't seem like you use it so how can you say that ? Edited December 3, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 See my edited post. I tried it. It is not viable for one reason above all. As stated, there is ONE bus at a suitable time in the morning. If that is cancelled, breaks down or is severely delayed (all of which have happened at some point on the occasions I've had to use it) I do not have a means of getting to work by an acceptable time. Compared to that, the fact it is more expensive and would take an additional 90 minutes out of my day would be merely inconvenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 See my edited post. I tried it. It is not viable for one reason above all. As stated, there is ONE bus at a suitable time in the morning. If that is cancelled, breaks down or is severely delayed (all of which have happened at some point on the occasions I've had to use it) I do not have a means of getting to work by an acceptable time. Compared to that, the fact it is more expensive and would take an additional 90 minutes out of my day would be merely inconvenient. Would be helpful to know where you live and where you work .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Oh aye. Nothing a spot of rebranding for that Ozone I think. You know, something along the lines of what BMW did for the Mini Cooper for example..... Oh. Thanks for your answer to my question by the way. Yes, all sounds plausable and probable that. Public pressure (ie market forces) caused fridge and deodorant manufacturers to find an alternative pretty quickly to those issues. I believe that similar caused their phasing out in much of the plastic industry. People confuse greenhouse gas issues (if they are an issue) with the ozone layer question. Some things do both (if both exist) but they aren't otherwise linked. Here's a radical blueprint. Stop the government, either local or national, from planning every bus route, ever rail route, every tram route that anyone was allowed to provide, and stop fixing the prices, providing subsidies and guaranteeing certain margins. Allow the operators to run whatever routes they like and charge what they like. Also introduce a per mile (possibly weighted towards congested areas) tax on driving, call it a driving tax and abolish road duty, excise duty on petrol and all the rest. Allow entirely private road schemes to be built by anyone who wanted to buy the land and build one. Allow entrepreneurs to buy railway stations, track, rolling stock, train companies - all at once if they like, so that someone might build up a regional railway without having to answer to 18 different authorities at the same time. Then, public transport might meet customer needs faster than a dozen pizza and kebab delivery companies can meet my needs within the next few minutes. Come to think of it, the way shops change themselves rapidly to meet my demands at the lowest price they can bear on the market. Or people offering mass transit might start to look at the thousands of innovations in delivery and advertising and coordinating information which are happening in dozens of other industries and see if they might help them run a service that people would want to use whilst earning a profit. There would be a genuine economic choice for drivers as well - over time people would provide you with some sort of public transport option if this was economically feasible, but they wouldn't run a bus to nowhere 3 times an hour because some parish councillor asked them to. Use your car, pay for the miles. Or else we could give the councillors and the ministers a few more billions and really really encourage them to get it right this time. It probably would have worked for the Romanian steel industry if only circumstances hadn't intervened. It will never happen. But neither will the utopian all singing all-dancing integrated scheme. Edited December 3, 2008 by leeslover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Would be helpful to know where you live and where you work .... Creepy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Would be helpful to know where you live and where you work .... Why and how? I'd have thought a web developer might understand why people choose not to divulge personal information on the internet, and would appreciate that it is exceptionally bad etiquette to ask someone to do so. But I'm intrigued. Why and how would knowing where I live and work be helpful to you? I have provided the details of my commute to demonstrate an example of how it is quite possible for someone who lives in suburbia not to have a viable public transport option for what is after all a pretty short commute. All the details necessary to illustrate that example are in my post(s) above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Why and how? I'd have thought a web developer might understand why people choose not to divulge personal information on the internet, and would appreciate that it is exceptionally bad etiquette to ask someone to do so. But I'm intrigued. Why and how would knowing where I live and work be helpful to you? I have provided the details of my commute to demonstrate an example of how it is quite possible for someone who lives in suburbia not to have a viable public transport option for what is after all a pretty short commute. All the details necessary to illustrate that example are in my post(s) above. Im trying to see if your full of :censored:... Simple really... I could sit here and make up things all day long to justifie my points... I doubt anyone could do much damage knowing that a user on OWTB called Garcon lives in x town and works in y town... But hey ho.... You clearly have things to hide... I reckon the bus stops outside your house...but that dosent fit your argument.. Edited December 3, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Why and how? I'd have thought a web developer might understand why people choose not to divulge personal information on the internet, and would appreciate that it is exceptionally bad etiquette to ask someone to do so. But I'm intrigued. Why and how would knowing where I live and work be helpful to you? I have provided the details of my commute to demonstrate an example of how it is quite possible for someone who lives in suburbia not to have a viable public transport option for what is after all a pretty short commute. All the details necessary to illustrate that example are in my post(s) above. Bet his wife drives him past the proles waiting in the rain in the suburban Warrington bus queues and drops him off at Warrington station before she goes off to earn the corn for the family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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