footy68 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Democracy is fine... Its the process of putting much more clever people in charge Regardless of what people think of Brown... I rest safe at night that he is in charge and not some of the posters on here Bang goes JJT's theory...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 he's never gonna sway anybody about anything the way he goes about it. he might have some very valid points/facts/opinions but I, for one, can't get past the tone & manner in which he puts them across. Glass houses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Democracy is fine... Its the process of putting much more clever people in charge Regardless of what people think of Brown... I rest safe at night that he is in charge and not some of the posters on here Are you representing the Small Businesses on the selection panel? Those of us still alive after the first year will be verging towards cannibalism as the best means of survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfOAFC Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 Glass houses see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 see? Im not hear to win friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footy68 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYLEOAFC Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Regardless of what we think its going ahead anyway so there’s not much point in discussing your vote. Even if the majority say no its still going ahead. I just think its a bizarre way of obtaining government funding in the form of a (Loan) that should have been ours anyway, the repayment system using congestion charges is just equally as daft IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Regardless of what we think its going ahead anyway so there’s not much point in discussing your vote. Even if the majority say no its still going ahead. So if the vote is no you think the councils would push ahead anyway ?? There would be riots on the streets if a referendum was ignored I would imagine.... Or do you think they are going to rig the result ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfOAFC Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 Im not hear to win friends this board, planet earth or both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 this board, planet earth or both? No, just this board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I just think its a bizarre way of obtaining government funding in the form of a (Loan) that should have been ours anyway, the repayment system using congestion charges is just equally as daft IMO. I will be well in the majority in not wanting increases in government spending at all - until subsidies of one mode of travel and burdens on another are ended the overall outcome will continue with as many things messing it up as the imposition of a dozen different congestion charges would do. However - 100% agree about the funding. If the Gov are going to raise the money, raise it, don't pretend you are earning it. As I shoed many pages ago, the great majority of the charges and penalty fees will go into paying the running costs of the charge system itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYLEOAFC Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 So if the vote is no you think the councils would push ahead anyway ?? There would be riots on the streets if a referendum was ignored I would imagine.... Or do you think they are going to rig the result ? I think it will be closer than it is on this board and no more than 15 -20 % difference, they will just market it well and spin it more times than a shane warne delivery!! Its the only way 'AGMA' can get the funding for the "much needed" transport improvements from central government! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I think it will be closer than it is on this board and no more than 15 -20 % difference, they will just market it well and spin it more times than a shane warne delivery!! Hope your right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumping Jimmy Thunder Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Discussing it at work and I've only come across one person voting 'yes'. This out of about 50 people. About 30 'no's' and a number of people who 'can't be arsed' to vote, despite it affecting them directly, one way or the other; cretins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJazzer Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I dont think they'll 'push it through' but they will find a way to introduce it anyway. They can dress it up anyway they like. Change the name, print new maps and leaflets and hey presto, welcome to the 'Manchester Toll Road'......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 'Manchester Toll Road'......... I've kept out of this so far but this has made me want to comment. Firstly I think I am going to vote yes, not as convinced this is the right thing to do as I was a few weeks ago but still think it is the way forward. Speaking of toll roads - my favourite road (yes I've got one) is the M6 toll, it is bloody lovely, smooth, clear, nice scenery well maintained and a pleasure to drive on. I had to go down to Wales over the weekend and was disappointed I couldn't use the Toll road. If this is what we will get with the congestion charge then bring it on. The reason I think voting yes is the right thing to do is that there are too many cars on the road getting in everyone's way, I hate sitting in traffic shuffling along the road coming up to busy junctions then the road clearing till the next junction all the way to town. Same if not worse on the way back from town. I changed the time I start and finish work so that I can attempt to miss the worst of it but I still get caught up in bloody traffic. The idea as far as I can see it is to charge people in the hope it does get some of them out of their cars, it is supposed to be an inconvenience so the save yourself some cash argument doesn't work on me. If you want to drive in the zone you can do but it will cost, granted some people will be up the creek as they need their car but some people will benefit, I believe the benefiters are the greater number. If we do nothing the situation will not get better, it will get worse. Whatever happens we are looking at increased costs for motoring, petrol will be about £2.50 a litre before not too long, give it about 5 years or so and we will long for the days of £2.18! The no argument doesn't add up to me, just seems to be vote no and save yourself a bit of cash. The actual answer to the problem has already been put on here, can't find the post but the bloke who said we are a victim of our own success - Manchester is an old city and we are trying to live in a modern way in it and it isn't working. What is needed is a massive investment in the whole area and some joined up thinking, we need to lose a load of buildings and build a better road/rail/tram/bus/bike/pedestrian/communications - however people and things are transported network. We need to look at where we want to be and work out how to get there, not come up with some half assed attempt at fixing the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJazzer Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 You know Teats, that has to be the best post i've read on here. Well thought out, well structured and put together. Dont get me wrong, ur not going to make me vote Yes but well done all the same. Certainly a nice change from reading OAFCzero's egotistical self important bull:censored: and seeing those smiley faces that i just want to punch and punch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I've kept out of this so far but this has made me want to comment. Firstly I think I am going to vote yes, not as convinced this is the right thing to do as I was a few weeks ago but still think it is the way forward. Speaking of toll roads - my favourite road (yes I've got one) is the M6 toll, it is bloody lovely, smooth, clear, nice scenery well maintained and a pleasure to drive on. I had to go down to Wales over the weekend and was disappointed I couldn't use the Toll road. If this is what we will get with the congestion charge then bring it on. The reason I think voting yes is the right thing to do is that there are too many cars on the road getting in everyone's way, I hate sitting in traffic shuffling along the road coming up to busy junctions then the road clearing till the next junction all the way to town. Same if not worse on the way back from town. I changed the time I start and finish work so that I can attempt to miss the worst of it but I still get caught up in bloody traffic. The idea as far as I can see it is to charge people in the hope it does get some of them out of their cars, it is supposed to be an inconvenience so the save yourself some cash argument doesn't work on me. If you want to drive in the zone you can do but it will cost, granted some people will be up the creek as they need their car but some people will benefit, I believe the benefiters are the greater number. If we do nothing the situation will not get better, it will get worse. Whatever happens we are looking at increased costs for motoring, petrol will be about £2.50 a litre before not too long, give it about 5 years or so and we will long for the days of £2.18! The no argument doesn't add up to me, just seems to be vote no and save yourself a bit of cash. The actual answer to the problem has already been put on here, can't find the post but the bloke who said we are a victim of our own success - Manchester is an old city and we are trying to live in a modern way in it and it isn't working. What is needed is a massive investment in the whole area and some joined up thinking, we need to lose a load of buildings and build a better road/rail/tram/bus/bike/pedestrian/communications - however people and things are transported network. We need to look at where we want to be and work out how to get there, not come up with some half assed attempt at fixing the problem. Totally agree... Change is always painful.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Certainly a nice change from reading OAFCzero's egotistical self important bull:censored: and seeing those smiley faces that i just want to punch and punch! Self important Sounds like the No vote to me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 (edited) I'm not here to win friends Or learn English... Change can indeed be painful. That's why it's so important to make sure it's the right change. Edited December 2, 2008 by garcon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJazzer Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 You know, if they said they would ditch all the pointless money spinning bus lanes, the speed humps and those plain daft chicane things then i might just change my mind about a yes vote. When i was a 6yr old in the late 70's I expected future roads (after all 2008 seemed like a lifetime away) to be as smooth as glass, and all cars would have magic rubber that would stop them on a sixpence. I never would have imagined that we would actually stick bumps on them on purpose! Just a thought........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 You know Teats, that has to be the best post i've read on here. Well thought out, well structured and put together. Dont get me wrong, ur not going to make me vote Yes but well done all the same. Certainly a nice change from reading OAFCzero's egotistical self important bull:censored: and seeing those smiley faces that i just want to punch and punch! Indeed, BJ ( ). Mr Teats and I stand worlds apart on how we view the world, at least in terms of economics, but a coherent argument for the other side should always be welcomed by anyone who wants to be sure that they are actually on the right side of the debate rather than defending the position they hold for the it's own sake. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYLEOAFC Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I've kept out of this so far but this has made me want to comment. Firstly I think I am going to vote yes, not as convinced this is the right thing to do as I was a few weeks ago but still think it is the way forward. Speaking of toll roads - my favourite road (yes I've got one) is the M6 toll, it is bloody lovely, smooth, clear, nice scenery well maintained and a pleasure to drive on. I had to go down to Wales over the weekend and was disappointed I couldn't use the Toll road. If this is what we will get with the congestion charge then bring it on. The reason I think voting yes is the right thing to do is that there are too many cars on the road getting in everyone's way, I hate sitting in traffic shuffling along the road coming up to busy junctions then the road clearing till the next junction all the way to town. Same if not worse on the way back from town. I changed the time I start and finish work so that I can attempt to miss the worst of it but I still get caught up in bloody traffic. The idea as far as I can see it is to charge people in the hope it does get some of them out of their cars, it is supposed to be an inconvenience so the save yourself some cash argument doesn't work on me. If you want to drive in the zone you can do but it will cost, granted some people will be up the creek as they need their car but some people will benefit, I believe the benefiters are the greater number. If we do nothing the situation will not get better, it will get worse. Whatever happens we are looking at increased costs for motoring, petrol will be about £2.50 a litre before not too long, give it about 5 years or so and we will long for the days of £2.18! The no argument doesn't add up to me, just seems to be vote no and save yourself a bit of cash. The actual answer to the problem has already been put on here, can't find the post but the bloke who said we are a victim of our own success - Manchester is an old city and we are trying to live in a modern way in it and it isn't working. What is needed is a massive investment in the whole area and some joined up thinking, we need to lose a load of buildings and build a better road/rail/tram/bus/bike/pedestrian/communications - however people and things are transported network. We need to look at where we want to be and work out how to get there, not come up with some half assed attempt at fixing the problem. If these are you reasons to vote yes, trust me its a wasted vote. The M6 toll is a private road that’s subject to the highway regulations in relation to the highway code etc, MANCHESTER WILL NEVER GET A PRIVATE TOLL ROAD UNDER THESE PROPOSALS FACT. The congestion charge or scam as it should be called is just AGMA's way of paying back the money their borrowing from central government to complete the metro link and various other harebrained public transport schemes and serves no purpose other than that. As you have mentioned your still going to use your car as will everybody else there’s no plans to make roads wider so why would congestion ease at all especially at weekends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 You know, if they said they would ditch all the pointless money spinning bus lanes, the speed humps and those plain daft chicane things then i might just change my mind about a yes vote. When i was a 6yr old in the late 70's I expected future roads (after all 2008 seemed like a lifetime away) to be as smooth as glass, and all cars would have magic rubber that would stop them on a sixpence. I never would have imagined that we would actually stick bumps on them on purpose! Just a thought........ You could also argue that for about 5000 years or so people made do with their feet or the feet of a donkey or any other pack animal to get about. It is only in the last hundred or so years that the car has been around, now cities are designed around them rather than the people who drive them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 (edited) Lets face it humans are awful... Where like parasites... Attaching onto every resource the planet has and consuming it towards destruction... But hey its our right.... As a people we think taking our kids 2 miles up the road to school in your Chelsea tractors is more important than actually doing something right for once People say its enough enough... But its a start.... And if its going to happen anyway...why not take the bag of money while its on offer... Edited December 2, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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