Macca Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 More accurately Macca, is to say that a large strong business will be able to absorb the cost increase without noticing, although it is still an unnecessary increase in the current climate. It will push some businesses which are disproportionately affected to the brink, and some which are struggling at the moment over the brink. I agree with you and it's unfortunate if businesses do go under but perhaps its time for them to go under? Is it such a bad thing? Yeah sure it will be for the owners and employees but I'm guessing they will find new careers somewhere else. Perhaps the charge is more important than a few businesses staying afloat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Is Liverpool to Manchester not an acceptable daily commute at all then? Or just not if you drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I agree with you and it's unfortunate if businesses do go under but perhaps its time for them to go under? Is it such a bad thing? Yeah sure it will be for the owners and employees but I'm guessing they will find new careers somewhere else. Your right.. During the good times even a very badly run business can keep going... During the hard times these business are the first to go... and so on and so forth... Thats natural economical churn... You certainly don't go basing your transport policy on it... Perhaps the charge is more important than a few businesses staying afloat? I like your way of thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I agree with you and it's unfortunate if businesses do go under but perhaps its time for them to go under? Is it such a bad thing? Yeah sure it will be for the owners and employees but I'm guessing they will find new careers somewhere else. Perhaps the charge is more important than a few businesses staying afloat? There's no logic as to which ones it hits though - it's like oafc0000 walking around pointing his green wand at one in 10 people and telling them they are losing their jobs to feed the Ecomonster, or else it will eat the rest of the world. If it just makes some people seriously worse off, and most people a little worse off, and a very few people a bit better off, and pisses billions into the pockets of people administering the system, sometimes it is far far better to just do nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M_OAFC Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Scary theory.... At the start of the Nazi moment the party had support from the masses... I think you need to reassess your view of the world and people... Right, so I'm advocating that when there is an election/referendum etc it is right and proper that the verdict of the majority is carried out. And because of that viewpoint you believe I should reasses my view of the world citing the Nazi party as a reason why. Okay then, so would you care to tell me what should have happened in 1930s Germany? Rather than allowing the German people to democratically elect these people in to government what exactly should we have done instead? Should we have forcibly removed democracy from them? If so what was the alternative? Perhaps we should have installed a dictator..............oh............hang on..........oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Is Liverpool to Manchester not an acceptable daily commute at all then? Or just not if you drive? You have to understand I'm talking about where society has gone over the last 50 years... Due partly to the use of car.... We was talking about why I am anti-car and its impact through the years, the changes it made to people... I think if we where talking about just using trains then that for example has a much reduced impact upon the planet and are limited fuel stocks.. So of course I would be less vocal about it.. The car gave people the real ability to step out of there house and travel great distance with minimal effort. You must see how that change the way we think as people ? Compared to the likes of using the train which requires more effort... We needed to create more self sustaining local business... But thanks to bad policy making and the ability to community this ideal as now gone... Its a big subject but I do put the car and the way it changed peoples thinking as one of the root causes...and so do many experts on the subject... EDIT: Anyway where going way off topic now... Edited December 3, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Right, so I'm advocating that when there is an election/referendum etc it is right and proper that the verdict of the majority is carried out. And because of that viewpoint you believe I should reasses my view of the world citing the Nazi party as a reason why. Okay then, so would you care to tell me what should have happened in 1930s Germany? Rather than allowing the German people to democratically elect these people in to government what exactly should we have done instead? Should we have forcibly removed democracy from them? If so what was the alternative? Perhaps we should have installed a dictator..............oh............hang on..........oops! You miss my point entirely... Probably intentionally... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I agree with you and it's unfortunate if businesses do go under but perhaps its time for them to go under? Is it such a bad thing? Yeah sure it will be for the owners and employees but I'm guessing they will find new careers somewhere else. Ohhh, it's always as easy as that innit. Try telling that to someone in their early 50's with 10 years of mortgage left to pay and finding themselves on the scrapheap because most companies quite obviously seek younger candidates. Aye, fúck small businesses, hey. Survival of the fittest and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) Aye, fúck small businesses, hey. Survival of the fittest and all that. I dont think he said that... Thats the way you choose to spin his words... A unviable business is just that... How could it possibly survive? Edited December 3, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 We needed to create more self sustaining local business... Like city centre web design companies. If that's what you really do. I'm sure I remember you posting that you were moving out of Oldham for quality of life. Much better to go back to the days when people had no opportunity to expandtheir horizons and just worked down the local pit or mill. There were fields all round in them days. Our parents and grandparents didn't realise how fundamentally evil they were wanting their children to have further opportunities than they themselves had had. You miss my point entirely... Probably intentionally... If you don't see how comparing someone who has been patiently debating with you to a Nazi isn't an attitude that will eventually lead you into trouble, you are truly beyond help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M_OAFC Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Democracy works just fine... Its the best of all the methods... Even when it produces results that oppose your own opinion? If so then I agree with you whole heartedly but I have to wonder because earlier in the thread that seemed to be a problem for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) If you don't see how comparing someone who has been patiently debating with you to a Nazi isn't an attitude that will eventually lead you into trouble, you are truly beyond help. Im trying my best to just ignore you but right here with this comment you show up just how good your debating skills are and just how good your ability to spin is..... I never once compared him to a nazi... Just gave an example of where the masses have been wrong in the past... I will attempt to ignore you further... In fact your now im ignore list Feel free to add me to yours... Edited December 3, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I dont think he said that... Thats the way you choose to spin his words... Really? In what way? He stated employees will just get jobs elsewhere. But life isn't at all that simple is it? I actually think in 10 years most cities in Britain will introduce congestion charges. These will however, be in the city centres though, and not the umpteen square miles of residential area surrounding it. Anyway, you best turn your computer off now. Your carbon footprint is more like a carbon bootprint and the energy you've just wasted arguing your points all day is probably bordering on that woman who'll be dropping the kids off at school in her Wilmslow panzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 You have to understand I'm talking about where society has gone over the last 50 years... Due partly to the use of car.... We was talking about why I am anti-car and its impact through the years, the changes it made to people... I think if we where talking about just using trains then that for example has a much reduced impact upon the planet and are limited fuel stocks.. So of course I would be less vocal about it.. The car gave people the real ability to step out of there house and travel great distance with minimal effort. You must see how that change the way we think as people ? Compared to the likes of using the train which requires more effort... We needed to create more self sustaining local business... But thanks to bad policy making and the ability to community this ideal as now gone... Its a big subject but I do put the car and the way it changed peoples thinking as one of the root causes...and so do many experts on the subject... EDIT: Anyway where going way off topic now... I don't think it is that far off topic. It seems to me that fundamentally you are in favour o fthe congestion charge as a method to bash the car because you blame the car for destroying some mythical Eutopia of local community where no-one moved beyond their local boundaries to seek a better life. In reading about all this from the experts on the subject, have you got to the part where Communism collapsed yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Really? In what way? He stated employees will just get jobs elsewhere. But life isn't at all that simple is it? He didnt say :censored: em all though did he... He just suggested that natural churn in the economy is just part of the world we live in... Which it is.. Its sad when someone loses a job but its usally down to the business being unviable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 In fact your now im ignore list Of course I am, because you hate attention. Not that you will see this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M_OAFC Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) You miss my point entirely... Probably intentionally... If I am missing your point I can assure it wasn't intentional. As I understood it your point appeared to be that I should reasses my view of the world because I happen to believe that after an election/referendum the verdict of the majority should be carried out. If that wasn't the point you were making then please spell it out for me because I cannot see how else I was supposed to interpret your comments. Edited December 3, 2008 by M_OAFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) I don't think it is that far off topic. It seems to me that fundamentally you are in favour o fthe congestion charge as a method to bash the car because you blame the car for destroying some mythical Eutopia of local community where no-one moved beyond their local boundaries to seek a better life. In reading about all this from the experts on the subject, have you got to the part where Communism collapsed yet? No your spinning and putting words into my mouth... I've lived almost all my life in Greater Manchester and im doing ok... My mindset sees us growing local communities and business and not doing what I felt I had to do and :censored: off away from Oldham because it was dieing on its arse.... Where can a web developer get work in Oldham ? For example... Its the outward drain from a place like Oldham thats been allowed to happen...add the combination of the old industries dieing with nothing replacing them that hurt Oldham.... Edited December 3, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M_OAFC Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 No your spinning and putting words into my mouth... I've lived almost all my life in Greater Manchester and im doing ok... My mindset sees us growing local communities and business and not doing what I felt I had to do and :censored: off away from Oldham because it was dieing on its arse.... Where can a web developer get work in Oldham ? For example... Its the outward drain from a place like Oldham thats been allowed to happen...add the combination of the old industries dieing with nothing replacing them that hurt Oldham.... He's right you know, Oldham just hasn't been the same since he left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 He's right you know, Oldham just hasn't been the same since he left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Where can a web developer get work in Oldham ? For example... Is there not a bus route into central Manchester from Oldham? That would be an option, wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 He didnt say :censored: em all though did he... He just suggested that natural churn in the economy is just part of the world we live in... Which it is.. Its sad when someone loses a job but its usally down to the business being unviable... Aye. Silly me for showing at least a bit of empathy towards the worker, hey? OK, next question because there's a lot of going in circles going on about this now. If the people win the vote against it? What happens then? A new, improvised plan to vote on? Or we all just forget it and watch as Manchester falls into traffic meltdown and a massive hole in the ozone layer is blown right open 15 miles above Piccadilly station? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 It may have escaped your attention, but the internet is global. A decent web developer should be able to find work whether they're in Oldham, Warrington, Manchester, London are Timbuk-feckin-too. As for Oldham dying on its arse, that kinda depends what you really want - because most of that heavy industry that had Oldham booming as an engineering town was based on unsustainable fuels and was pretty damn filthy for the environment. Local communities and businesses don't simply grow organically. You need trade with other areas - of skills, jobs, people. If Oldham couldn't attract anyone from further afield - for the many businesses in the borough that are doing very well as it happens - then it truly would die on its arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte_Baby Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I voted no and will continue to do so. I do not drive and i do not want the Metrolink either. Anyone who travels on a train to Manchester knows come December 4 services an hour 2 of which are express ones. Also plans to put more stops in resulting in longer journeys. I am all for the Metrolink but no in Oldham as we simply do not need it. Higher fares, even if everyone votes no they will find someway of bringing a congestion charge in and after a year or two increase the price. As for all these super bus routes, despite thousands of pounds of investment by First and Stagecoach, there buses are still overcrowded, expensive and unreliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) It may have escaped your attention, but the internet is global. A decent web developer should be able to find work whether they're in Oldham, Warrington, Manchester, London are Timbuk-feckin-too. ?? You really didnt get my point... And also business deals are still with the shaking of hands.... As for Oldham dying on its arse, that kinda depends what you really want - because most of that heavy industry that had Oldham booming as an engineering town was based on unsustainable fuels and was pretty damn filthy for the environment. The old industry died for a reason... I was suggesting keeping it... Local communities and businesses don't simply grow organically. You need trade with other areas - of skills, jobs, people. That's true of the modern world... I was talking about an achievable ideal that didnt involve the daily mass migration of people... Where going way of topic... Edited December 3, 2008 by oafc0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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