Lookers_Carl Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Isnt there a rule that puts the 10 points off next season after a certain date...or have I just missed that somewhere else? Not read all the stuff on here today? Yes,the deadline was the last week in march for the points deduction to be guaranteed this season After the deadline, like southampton.... -If a team finished 10 points above relegation zone without the penalty applied, then it is applied next season -If a team is relegated without the deduction being applied, again it is applied next season. -If a team avoids relegation by less than 10 points before the penalty is applied, then its applied this season And dont forget, County need to exit admin via a CVA. Otherwise, like Rotherham, Leeds, Bournemouth, could face further more severe points deductions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookers87 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 It will defo be next season, otherwise southampton could kick up one hell of a fuss And not only that,they could be docked further points if the club do not exit admin via CVA? ...which because the FA/Football League rules are (certainly were last summer) actually contradictory to uk business law (Enterprise Act 2002) means that almost every football club that follows business law in exiting administration will end up being further penalised by the FL. Mainly due to the clauses regarding football creditors. So County and others could well find -10 could get a whole lot worse over the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 ...which because the FA/Football League rules are (certainly were last summer) actually contradictory to uk business law (Enterprise Act 2002) means that almost every football club that follows business law in exiting administration will end up being further penalised by the FL. Mainly due to the clauses regarding football creditors. So County and others could well find -10 could get a whole lot worse over the summer. If this is the first time county have been in, and they do not exit it via a CVA, I imagine they could face a further 15 point deduction assuming they exit admin without a CVA Although we managed to exit admin via a CVA ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) Is it possible that they delayed going into administration until we had appointed a manager? Where they hoping that we would pay a fee for Gannon? Before anyone jumps on my back - I am happy about Dave Penney's appointment Edited April 30, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) Although we managed to exit admin via a CVA ? Points deductions didn't exist then. Is it possible that they delayed going into administration until we had appointed a manager? Where they hoping that we would pay a fee for Gannon? More likely a creditor got twitchy and forced the situation on them. Edited April 30, 2009 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slurms mckenzie Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 You've mis-spelt Milton Keynes there. haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 one creditor alone is owed around £300,000. sharks RU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 one creditor alone is owed around £300,000. sharks RU? Don't think it's Sale Sharks. By all accounts Brian Kennedy had been doing his bit to keep them out of administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Points deductions didn't exist then. I know it didnt but had it have done we would have simply been docked the 10 points for going into it, with no additional points being docked as a result of not exiting administration via a CVA, as a CVA was in place when we exited administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OminousPoultry Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Don't think it's Sale Sharks. By all accounts Brian Kennedy had been doing his bit to keep them out of administration. IR probably - Crain's site states "The club has been struggling to pay debts of about £250,000 to Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs" so unless there is another sizeable trade creditor it'll be them. Preferential treatment and all that........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 IR probably - Crain's site states "The club has been struggling to pay debts of about £250,000 to Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs" so unless there is another sizeable trade creditor it'll be them. Preferential treatment and all that........... ahh yes..forgot about the obvious one. anyway,time to become vultures i think and pick around some of their players. hey,its not nice,but we've been on the receiving end. dog eat dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 I know it didnt but had it have done we would have simply been docked the 10 points for going into it, with no additional points being docked as a result of not exiting administration via a CVA, as a CVA was in place when we exited administration. Think I was on planet zog - sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookers87 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 I know it didnt but had it have done we would have simply been docked the 10 points for going into it, with no additional points being docked as a result of not exiting administration via a CVA, as a CVA was in place when we exited administration. This is the quandry of FL v business law...in basics the crown no longer has preferential status as it did in the old days so it is 'in the pot' with the other creditors (although usually is the largest in value and therefore has more voting power). So an ordinary business would have to get 75% value creditors voting yes in order to put together a CVA (basically paying x pence in the £) to clear its debts. The difference in football is that the FL rules mean that football creditors must be paid in full otherwise the new club cannot get it's 'golden share'. So they have created a kind of 'preferential creditors'. This means that the crown are already losing out on the pot. THEN the FL say a club must exit via a CVA in order to get its registration. This means that a CVA must be agreed. The problem therefore occurs as the new club pays off it's football creditors (who these days are usually very small) and then goes to the biggest creditor (crown) to agree a CVA. (Bates tried to get away with 1p in the £1 hence to crown said no = no CVA = -15 points). So in summary...what a load of boring rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) This is the quandry of FL v business law...in basics the crown no longer has preferential status as it did in the old days so it is 'in the pot' with the other creditors (although usually is the largest in value and therefore has more voting power). So an ordinary business would have to get 75% value creditors voting yes in order to put together a CVA (basically paying x pence in the £) to clear its debts. The difference in football is that the FL rules mean that football creditors must be paid in full otherwise the new club cannot get it's 'golden share'. So they have created a kind of 'preferential creditors'. This means that the crown are already losing out on the pot. THEN the FL say a club must exit via a CVA in order to get its registration. This means that a CVA must be agreed. The problem therefore occurs as the new club pays off it's football creditors (who these days are usually very small) and then goes to the biggest creditor (crown) to agree a CVA. (Bates tried to get away with 1p in the £1 hence to crown said no = no CVA = -15 points). So in summary...what a load of boring rubbish. Apparently the points deduction IS this season If I were a saints fan I would be fuming right about now!!! If stockport get the deduction now it would be meaningless, hence if Stockport can have theirs now then surely so can Southampton Edited April 30, 2009 by Lookers_Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sheridans_world Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Apparently the points deduction IS this season If I were a saints fan I would be fuming right about now!!! I've just heard its this season, Beeb reporting it as this season too. Carl, it wouldnt matter, if they get relegated there is no punishment, they get it next season, if they dont get relegated they get it anyway. Stockport survive with the ten point deduction. It could have been very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) I've just heard its this season, Beeb reporting it as this season too. so are sky sports now. sorry, no disrespect to county and I hope they get out of it etc, but after the way this penalty was applied to southampton, this is wrong!!! southampton were told they would have it applied at the start of next season if they finished in the bottom 3 anyway, but would have it docked this season if they survived, so that the penalty meant something. Stockport cant really go down barring a mathematical miracle, hence the penalty is meaningless and they start on 0 points next season. What im saying is on this basis if they are going to let stockport have the deduction this season when it means jack, then by the same rights so should southampton Edited April 30, 2009 by Lookers_Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaw_blue Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Apparently the points deduction IS this season If I were a saints fan I would be fuming right about now!!! If stockport get the deduction now it would be meaningless, hence if Stockport can have theirs now then surely so can Southampton stockport can still be mathmatically relegated so the deduction is now but if they avoid relegation (as they certainly will) the 10 points will be applied next season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sheridans_world Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 It isnt wrong. The fact is the punishment is a ten-point deduction, however if you are already relegated it takes affect the next season. The punishment is not relegation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 It isnt wrong. The fact is the punishment is a ten-point deduction, however if you are already relegated it takes affect the next season. The punishment is not relegation. But if it is applied now, whilst they are as good as safe, the punishment is meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sheridans_world Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 But if it is applied now, whilst they are as good as safe, the punishment is meaningless. And if it was applied at the start of the season and they ended up in the same position? Would that be meaningless too? Or maybe it should have taken effect before the "deadline" they've only won one and drawn one since. Would that make it meaningless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) And if it was applied at the start of the season and they ended up in the same position? Would that be meaningless too? Or maybe it should have taken effect before the "deadline" they've only won one and drawn one since. Would that make it meaningless? Sorry, my bad, misinterpreted the rules, FOOTBALL League clubs have until the fourth Thursday in March to go into administration, or they will have their ten-point deduction suspended. Clubs who take the step before March 26 will be penalised immediately. If they wait until after that date, the situation changes. Initially, no deduction will be made and they will play out the season as normal. If they are subsequently relegated, they will start the next season on minus-ten points. Edited April 30, 2009 by Lookers_Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Sorry, my bad, misinterpreted the rules, FOOTBALL League clubs have until the fourth Thursday in March to go into administration, or they will have their ten-point deduction suspended. Clubs who take the step before March 26 will be penalised immediately. If they wait until after that date, the situation changes. Initially, no deduction will be made and they will play out the season as normal. If they are subsequently relegated, they will start the next season on minus-ten points. So Stockport have held on until they are safe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Clubs who take the step before March 26 will be penalised immediately. If they wait until after that date, the situation changes. Initially, no deduction will be made and they will play out the season as normal. getting confused now. they have been deducted 10pts today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 getting confused now. they have been deducted 10pts today. Yes, rules state like southampton, if they go into admin after the deadline, the points deduction is suspended till may, and if they are relegated anyway, then they get it next season, otherwise they get it this season, whether it means they go down or not as a result I thought it was applied at the discretion of the FL after this date Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Southampton fans will be a bit miffed if Stockport's administration penalty is for this year, I don't think its fair about how it appears to be one rule for one team and one rule for another team. However, Southampton's parent company went into administration sometime ago and the FA may have given them an ultimatium over the 10 point penalty. It could be that its the end of the month, or the start of a new financial year but I do think it is a bit suspicious that clubs are going into administration this late in the season (essentially there is now less than 48 hours left of the League 1 season). It amazes me (but I don't run a business) how the biggest creditors always tend to be the tax man in football. Its like the clubs see this as not being important when I think a lot of fans might see it as the club not paying back their own money (if the tax man has a shortfall then taxes go up don't they). The big creditors in Stockport might have been the coppers, who Sale payed off so they could play against someone recently. This could mean a bit more of a firesale at Stockport, but does this mean that COG hasn't been getting paid/ won't get paid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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