Takemeanywhere Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 The size of the stadium reflects where the club expects to spend most of its time in future. Why else limit capacity to a level we've managed to exceed on numerous occasions since falling into this division? As somebody has pointed out, very few clubs have built new stadiums which are actually smaller than the ones they're replacing. You really think we would need more than 12,000 seats in this division, even in a promotion season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 You really think we would need more than 12,000 seats in this division, even in a promotion season? Not if you don't want 'em, no. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 You said that promotion this season isn't an impossibility. I said that it is and offered to pay £100 to a charity of your choice if you'd do the same if I'm right. Those are the terms. Thye're very simple. I'm not a gambling man, but I think there is a world of difference between saying that something is not an impossibility and accepting an even money bet on promotion for a team currently a few points outside the play-offs. It would be a reasonable bet maybe if we were in 2nd at the moment, giving our owners enough time to deliberately scupper our chances as they clashed with our plans. Isn't this aout the medium - long term anyway? How's about I win if we are promoted during this or the following 3 seasons, you win if we go down, first result is the winner, stay in the 3rd division is a draw?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) Right I'm going to throw 1 in the mix. It's all speculation becasue no one has seen any plans yet and the club have not released any details of whats included, although, 1 or 2 on here have said they have seen some things for real. But lets look at 2 points here. First would be the stadium design and the second is the additional income streams from the new stadium. So taking the stadium design 1st Some don't want a 4 sided separate stands ground and would prefer a joined up bowl type development ala the Keepmoat. Others say they would prefer a 4 sided ground as it would enable easier expansion in the future by filling in the 4 corners. Then there are those in the camp of they couldn't give a flying fig what the ground looks like because all they are bothered about is sitting in the stadium every other saturday and the odd midweek game to watch the mighty tics. Personlly, I'd like a bit of a mix of those options. I'd prefer to see a staium where 3 sides are joined up with 2 corners left to be filled in at a later date. That would also at least leave the away fans with a full stand of their own. In terms of additional income streams, that for me is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of the re-location. Ask 100 Latics fans if, all things being equal, they would rather stay at BP or move to Failsworth and 99% would say stay at BP myself included. If we accept that all things are no longer equal and we need to move then 80-90% would say they would then be prepared to leave BP. So what is in it for us the fans, what difference will these additional income streams make to us. I'll try and summarise to give an indication where they could take us, but remember these are estimates of what could happen and are not based on anything solid as nothing has yet been announced. Current losses stand at around £500,000 a year or £40K a month as reported in various reports. So to make us self sufficient, we need at least an additional £500K income from the new stadium based on current crowds. How is that going to be produced? 1st Private Boxes. Before we reached the premier league we had these at BP and they were always sold out. The redevelopment of BP had 20 new boxes in the new Lookers stand. So 20 new boxes each holding 10 people would raise us what? Shrewsbury charge £1,000 per seat per season. No food or drink included. They freely admit that they have made a mistake by not including enough boxes in their stadium and have a waiting list. So potentially, £200K there. 2nd Banqueting and conferencing. It's been reported elswhere on this or one of the related threads that Stockport raise £500K per year from the new stand behind the goal at Edgley park. Being on the edge of Manchester, It would be hard to argue that we would not have a more attractive venue than Stockport so potentially £500K or more there. 3rd Hotel. Now this new development will not be the Rebok or Old Trafford cricket ground. Boltons accounts last year showed that income form the hotel was £3 million, There is no breakdown of that figure, but it is undoubtedly profitable as is the Old Trafford Lodge at Lancashire Cricket, so lets say an income of £100 -£200K. 4th Community pitches, 5-a side and 3G full size and indoor arenas. When BP had the Plastic pitch, the club made over £50k profit in each of the last 2 years. Thats nearly 20 years ago. No matter what the pros and cons they generate income. 8 five a side pitches let out say 4 hours a day 6 days a week at £25 per hour. A full side pitch at £69 per hour (same as Chapel Road and Failsworth school pitches) same number of hours and an indoor arena at the same rate as the full size pitch so around £400K a year. Allow say £100K maintenance and running costs per year and you are left with an income of £300K per year. 5th Car parking. We all know that metrolink is going to run through or close by the stadium and there could be 600-800 spaces at the ground. Maybe these could be let on a park and ride basis to someone like GMPTE. Another income stream. Could potentially generate another £250K annually. 7th Other. We have had no mention of offices, but the redeveoped BP had between 60,000 and 80,000 square foot of offices. Lets say 20,000 square feet were included in the new ground. The going rate in Oldham at the moment is around £10-£12 per sqaure foot. so potentially £200k there. There is also potential for things like an improved club shop, cafe or other food outlet so potentially further income streams. You also have the concourse bars for Alcohol sales etc that we don't have now. Shrewsbury Supporters Club for e.g raised £40K to put flat screen TV's on the concourses (NOW THERES AN IDEA FOR OUR TRUST TO CONSIDER) and people come to the ground earlier and stay later spending more money in the ground bringing in even more income. What does all that come to? Well it looks to be around £1.5 to £1.75 million. The big question will be what can practically be included? Take that a step further and where does that leave us? It actually would leave us more than self sufficient and a much more attractive proposition to any potential new owner if TTA do decide to move on. All the above are taken from what other grounds have incorporarted or what was being proposed at BP. All I would say at this stage is don't let the current negatitivity drag you down until the plans are announced, because a at least a number of the above will have to be included to make it viable. Right thats my imput into the debate. I'm off out to the Thursday quia in Ashton and will let you lot debate that little lot. Well its either that or Cheers, Harry Cool... IF this all works out then I can not find much to complain about... Make it a 16,000 seater and I will give it my full support Edited November 12, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takemeanywhere Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Not if you don't want 'em, no. Sigh. Oh, believe me, I want to stay at Boundary Park but what I want is entirely irrelevant. My point is that, in my opinion, 12,000 would be enough of a capacity to see us through a promotion season. With these modern stadiums, it is frighteningly simple to add seats. It can be achieved across the close season without any problem at all and we then have the 16,000 we need to move forward. Just because I've said it, doesn't mean it will happen but neither is it as impossible as you suggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) With these modern stadiums, it is frighteningly simple to add seats. It can be achieved across the close season without any problem at all and we then have the 16,000 we need to move forward. Where will the apparent £4 million come from to do it though ? That is a major concern of mine regarding the expandability... Edited November 12, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nava Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Where will the apparent £4 million come from to do it though ? That is a major concern of mine regarding the expandability... I would assume if we did need to expand it then we would be close to selling out every game so part from increased ticket sales, plus money would be coming in from some of the facilaties Harry posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) Oh, believe me, I want to stay at Boundary Park but what I want is entirely irrelevant. My point is that, in my opinion, 12,000 would be enough of a capacity to see us through a promotion season. With these modern stadiums, it is frighteningly simple to add seats. It can be achieved across the close season without any problem at all and we then have the 16,000 we need to move forward. Just because I've said it, doesn't mean it will happen but neither is it as impossible as you suggest. 'Frighteningly simple' it may be, but if there was any serious intention to regularly play clubs where a 16000 capacity might be needed, it would be incorporated into the plan from the start. 12000 indicates that any flirtation with the Championship will be brief, a la Scunthorpe or Colchester. There is no need to build extra seating when you don't expect to be staying. Sure enough we'll be told that it's possible-but we'll be told to see how it goes first. And we'll be back in the third-tier before we know it. This is, by the way, the best-case scenario. By the way, do you think we shouldn't be aiming to attract more than 12000 in a top-of-the-table clash with, say, Huddersfield in this division? Or Sheffield Wednesday if they came back down? Or Leeds? Edited November 12, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takemeanywhere Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Where will the apparent £4 million come from to do it though ? That is a major concern of mine regarding the expandability... More season tickets are sold due to the promotion to a higher division. More corporate sponsorship is available. There is a greater split of the televison money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I would assume if we did need to expand it then we would be close to selling out every game so part from increased ticket sales, plus money would be coming in from some of the facilaties Harry posted. Dont ignore the need to expand the squad and the higher wages though... Is not all that simple even if Harrys numbers are right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 More season tickets are sold due to the promotion to a higher division. More corporate sponsorship is available. There is a greater split of the televison money... Accepted... but you still have to take into the account the playing squad costs... I am not saying it is not possible...just the idea that it would be "simple" to expand is not exactly true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) Where will the apparent £4 million come from to do it though ? That is a major concern of mine regarding the expandability... IF you could fill the 4,000 seats at £15 a time (average price) for 23 games a season that would generate additional revenue of £1.38m a season. You would have no problems raising the finance to support such an enterprise. If you're able to fill them 50% of the time, then it's still probably worthy of the investment. On the other hand, if you are only likely to fill the seats twice a season when Newcastle or West Brom come to town, then you wouldn't build. Edited November 12, 2009 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Where will the apparent £4 million come from to do it though ? That is a major concern of mine regarding the expandability... Scenario 1 - if promoted we would need extra seats, because there would be enough people willing to pay for them to make it worthwhile. Conclusion 1 - borrow money to build seats now, lose money from having spent money early but possibly go up sooner because you have shown ambition Scenario 2 - if promoted we would need extra seats, because there would be enough people willing to pay for them to make it worthwhile. Conclusion 2 - build seats when you need them based on the imminently anticipated revenue you would make the following season Scenario 3 - if promoted it wouldn't make financial sense to expand, because there wouldn't be enough people willing to pay for them to make it worthwhile. Conclusion 3 - build seats now anyway because it is more important to show ambition than balance the books and free up money for the squad Scenario 4 - if promoted it wouldn't make financial sense to expand, because there wouldn't be enough people willing to pay for them to make it worthwhile. Conclusion 4 - don't build seats now because they are a waste of :censored:ing money now or ever. If one can accept that Conclusion 2 is a strategy and not a form ofsub-conscious self-harm, it looks like the best to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takemeanywhere Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Accepted... but you still have to take into the account the playing squad costs... I am not saying it is not possible...just the idea that it would be "simple" to expand is not exactly true... 'Simple' in terms of the actual engineering, is what I meant. If the rest was simple, we wouldn't be having the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 'Simple' in terms of the actual engineering, is what I meant. If the rest was simple, we wouldn't be having the debate. Fair enough, sorry for misunderstanding what you meant.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takemeanywhere Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 'Frighteningly simple' it may be, but if there was any serious intention to regularly play clubs where a 16000 capacity might be needed, it would be incorporated into the plan from the start. 12000 indicates that any flirtation with the Championship will be brief, a la Scunthorpe or Colchester. There is no need to build extra seating when you don't expect to be staying. Sure enough we'll be told that it's possible-but we'll be told to see how it goes first. And we'll be back in the third-tier before we know it. This is, by the way, the best-case scenario. By the way, do you think we shouldn't be aiming to attract more than 12000 in a top-of-the-table clash with, say, Huddersfield in this division? Or Sheffield Wednesday if they came back down? Or Leeds? We disagree over the fundamental issue of how many seats will be necessary for Oldham Athletic in this division, so there is little point in continuing to debate the point. I just wish you would stop talking of 'best case scenarios' as if you have already seen the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 New page limit record attempt in progress? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) Scenario 1 - if promoted we would need extra seats, because there would be enough people willing to pay for them to make it worthwhile. Conclusion 1 - borrow money to build seats now, lose money from having spent money early but possibly go up sooner because you have shown ambition Scenario 2 - if promoted we would need extra seats, because there would be enough people willing to pay for them to make it worthwhile. Conclusion 2 - build seats when you need them based on the imminently anticipated revenue you would make the following season Scenario 3 - if promoted it wouldn't make financial sense to expand, because there wouldn't be enough people willing to pay for them to make it worthwhile. Conclusion 3 - build seats now anyway because it is more important to show ambition than balance the books and free up money for the squad Scenario 4 - if promoted it wouldn't make financial sense to expand, because there wouldn't be enough people willing to pay for them to make it worthwhile. Conclusion 4 - don't build seats now because they are a waste of :censored:ing money now or ever. If one can accept that Conclusion 2 is a strategy and not a form ofsub-conscious self-harm, it looks like the best to me. I think my fear is we fall into the trap of having a 12,000 stadium.. We get promoted and we hit 12,000 every week straight away... Due to the cost of having to expand the sqaud there is not enough left to expand. Trapping us... I suppose we would seek a loan in that instance..if that was possible.... Edited November 12, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 We disagree over the fundamental issue of how many seats will be necessary for Oldham Athletic in this division, so there is little point in continuing to debate the point. I just wish you would stop talking of 'best case scenarios' as if you have already seen the future. And so you're not making predictions, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think my fear is we fall into the trap of having a 12,000 stadium.. We get promoted and we hit 12,000 every week straight away... Due to the cost of having to expand the sqaud there is not enough left to expand. Trapping us... I suppose we would seek a loan in that instance..if that was possible.... If people were going to pay to sit in the seats, why would we not be able to get a loan. Or why would rich owners not want to pay for the seats out of their own pocket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 New page limit record attempt in progress? Does it matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takemeanywhere Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 And so you're not making predictions, then? Not at all. I just dare to dream, even after all this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) And so you're not making predictions, then? CJ is right... It is happening on both side of the discussion to be fair... Which only then results in hardening of opinion on both sides... I am not as against the move to Failsworth as I think I am coming across Edited November 12, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takemeanywhere Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 New page limit record attempt in progress? Have you not seen the 'Video: Oldham-Millwall story' thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Does it matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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