The budget

[oafc0000]

I would have thought it was all straightforward fact, apart from the bit I followed with IMO .

 

I doubt think its a fact. I think its opinions personally. Which of course we are all entitled to...

[garcon]

The idea we should of been putting money away in the good times to cover up the massive whole which was about to blow up in the banking sector holds no weight in my eyes.

 

How much do people think we could of put away to protect ourselves ? Did they want pre 97 hospitals and schools ?

Not so much a case of putting money away as not blindly borrowing beyond all reasonable judgement in the ridiculous belief the good times will go on and on.

[oafc0000]

Not so much a case of putting money away as not blindly borrowing beyond all reasonable judgement in the ridiculous belief the good times will go on and on.

 

If people want to say they should not of borrowed as much I can accept that. Its this Tory led idea we should of "been putting away for the bad times" I find hard to swallow.

[leeslover]

If people want to say they should not of borrowed as much I can accept that. Its this Tory led idea we should of "been putting away for the bad times" I find hard to swallow.

You really think it's a bad idea repaying debts when you have loads of money pouring in? I'd bet you that if most people on here got a decent windfall they'd think about paying the mortgage off so they weren't paying it back with interest for the rest of their lives and they could do what they liked with the savings for the rest of their lives.

 

Although I think a better analogy to Labour is someone who is overspending on his wages, gets offered some overtime making him £100 extra a week and responds by buying a new TV and that cost him £120 a week in payments. He's in trouble when the overtime stops...

[oafc0000]

You really think it's a bad idea repaying debts when you have loads of money pouring in? I'd bet you that if most people on here got a decent windfall they'd think about paying the mortgage off so they weren't paying it back with interest for the rest of their lives and they could do what they liked with the savings for the rest of their lives.

 

Although I think a better analogy to Labour is someone who is overspending on his wages, gets offered some overtime making him £100 extra a week and responds by buying a new TV and that cost him £120 a week in payments. He's in trouble when the overtime stops...

 

I think that is analogy you could put to every political party since the end of world war two....

 

The tory underspend on the NHS, Schools, Police, Transport etc etc was criminal... I think people do forget how bad these things where pre 97 compared to today.

 

So you would of paid of the national debt back in 97 and onwards ? What about the schools, hospitals etc ?? Would you just left them as they where?

[leeslover]

I think that is analogy you could put to every political party since the end of world war two....

 

The tory underspend on the NHS, Schools, Police, Transport etc etc was criminal... I think people do forget how bad these things where pre 97 compared to today.

 

So you would of paid of the national debt back in 97 and onwards ? What about the schools, hospitals etc ?? Would you just left them as they where?

Whatever you think of the increased spending on hospitals and schools (as you no I wouldn't have spent more central government money on them, no, but that's not the point) spending vastly beyond your means during a 10 year boom ensures that the next generation will have dramatically less to spend on those very same things. Every pound spent servicing debt is a pound not spent on schools, the hospitals etc. The burden on the economy and higher interest rates also damages future growth and therefore ability to spend on these things.

[oafc0000]

Whatever you think of the increased spending on hospitals and schools (as you no I wouldn't have spent more central government money on them, no, but that's not the point) spending vastly beyond your means during a 10 year boom ensures that the next generation will have dramatically less to spend on those very same things. Every pound spent servicing debt is a pound not spent on schools, the hospitals etc. The burden on the economy and higher interest rates also damages future growth and therefore ability to spend on these things.

 

You are exaggerating things though... They never spent "vastly" beyond there means. They spent against projected growths in the economy. Growths that actually happened.

 

The money Labour borrowed not only paid for the schools, hospitals, police ad such like... It also paid for staff, better educated are children and stimulated industry. Which then all comes back via taxes and helps the economy grow.

 

I do accept Labour overspent... I don't accept they "vastly" overspent... I am dam sure if it wasnt for the banking crisis Labour would be winning another term easily.

[Max Damage]

You are exaggerating things though... They never spent "vastly" beyond there means. They spent against projected growths in the economy. Growths that actually happened.

 

The money Labour borrowed not only paid for the schools, hospitals, police ad such like... It also paid for staff, better educated are children and stimulated industry. Which then all comes back via taxes and helps the economy grow.

 

I do accept Labour overspent... I don't accept they "vastly" overspent... I am dam sure if it wasnt for the banking crisis Labour would be winning another term easily.

 

 

Are you having a laugh? I think you have misunderstood deficits and total debt, but back to the post above

 

The money labour borrowed has also paid for mass immigration, mass benefits culture, mass public sector full of a load of freeloader chucking sickies (don't deny it because despite alot of good people there are alot of muppets), etc, etc

 

As for the banking crisis that happened on LABOURS watch. It was their job to make sure our banks were safe. They failed and they failed because they wanted the tax money from the mega phantom profits. And don't give me this garbage about it being a global crisis because it is not. RBS, HBOS, Northern rock all went bust. RBS got a bailout, HBOS took over by LLOYDS which busted them needing a bailout, etc, etc. This DID NOT happen to the main banks in Canada, Australia, China, Japan, Spain, Italy, India, Hong Kong, Taiwan and many others. The UK was the worst affected, in reccesion the longest, has a truely massive debt and it is all on Labours doorstep.

 

Next that muppet Brown who believed his own bull:censored: on no more boom and bust leading him to spend, spend, spend also robbed my pension, increaced stealth taxes galore and saved nothing for when it all came crashing down.

 

The way labour have run this economy the banking crisis was ALWAYS going to happen and the next crisis those baffoons who have disgustingly removed all suppport for the working class will be an attack on the UK due to its unbelievable debt burden on its way to £2 trillion when EVERYTHING is included.

 

On the growth that actually happend - That growth was based on DEBT and Labour let it spiral out of control and labour did nothing to stop it and saved nothing for when the bubble went pop. They prayed on the populatin by allowing a massive ramping of house prices the fuelled totally false growth based not on productioon and output but on phantom wealth based on debt taken out on the value of a massively overvalued asset known as your house. that was unfogivable but they didn't care because it caused spending and created tax income on that spending. So in reality there was no growth it was all debt and now we are in it up to our eyeballs thanks to Gordon Brown and his band of idiots

 

Nu Labour have destroyed the UK and people still want to vote for them. Amazing

 

On this post

 

Total debt is a crude number... and makes it impossible to compare how it was under the Torys etc...

 

Give me strength!!! The only true measure is the total debt. Keeping it simple you buy a house with a £100k mortgage. The interest rate is 10% so unless you pay the right amount the debt rises. So lets say you pay £50 a month which would not even cover the interest would you be happy? I hope not because the debt will keep rising and not fall. But then why not go and borrow another £50k to buy a flash car but keep the payments at £50 a month and watch the debt rise faster. That is what Labour have done and that is why the truth is the total debt figure becuase that is what you will in the end be forced to pay back. If you can't then your car, house and everything else gets repossesed, sold, and the bill for the rest sent to you. That put simply is what Labour have done and what could happen to the UK next.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Max Damage

[OldhamSheridan]

We'll never know what the Tories would have done. All I know is Labour messed it up badly. I work in an area bloated with overpayment (though not my wage and pension may I add, *cough*). Knock off 25%* off local government. Bravo, and the rest please.

 

How anyone thinks different is beyond me, but hey, each to their own.

 

 

 

*Of jobs, not wages. Otherwise we get even bigger muppets in local governemtn than the moment.

[leeslover]

Well, OS can still afford to get pissed anyway!

[OldhamSheridan]

Well, OS can still afford to get pissed anyway!

 

Hurrah!

 

What a budget.

 

Cider is ace. Let me forget my pay freeze, VAT and potential pension problems.

 

NB. I agree with the pay freeze for ME. I agree with the VAT for ME. I agree with upping my contributions from 6% to 10% for ME. These are massive contributions I'm willing to pay. But others have to agree things like: means tested pensions, child benefit and tax credits. Benefits being reduced to a workable level. Schools and the NHS not only beiong exempt, but the main targets for savings as they are massively bloated.

 

I stand to lose a couple of grand a year at this rate. How much are others willing to give?

 

[Zorrro]

Sod all. I give up too much as it is.

[OldhamSheridan]

Sod all. I give up too much as it is.

 

Isn't that now the point? Everyone has to pay for the previous spending?

 

I don't want to pay anything of course. I give up FAR too much* in comparison to some. So it has to be done. You, me and Joe Bloggs has to pay.Tough for all.

 

*Actually I would go with a temporary 35% VAT to sort things out, but people will go on about scroungers not being able to afford their bastard children then, or something similar. But I like the idea of higher taxes and better community facilities myself.

[Zorrro]

I actually don't care. I just thought it was a suitably inflammatory remark.

[OldhamSheridan]

I actually don't care. I just thought it was a suitably inflammatory remark.

 

I'll stop getting fumed up then.

 

It's good not to care about your own personal money though.

[Zorrro]

For all I know I could end up being worse off, especially with a baby on the way. But I suspect I'll just write it all off as money being spent on the little 'un, rather than it being money "taken off me" by the big, bad Chancellor.

[scotty doesn't know]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8584608.stm

can we not mix football and politics.

[rudemedic]

But I like the idea of higher taxes and better community facilities myself.

 

Serves you right for living in 7 fingered country then doesn't it- the community facilities are very good near me . I wouldn't be surprised to see a load of further tax rises in the next budget (which I would think might be less than a year off). Cider might not go up 10% but it will go up, same with beer, wines, spirits, tobacco, petrol. I really don't think it will be long before we see a massive rise in the price of certain alcoholic drinks as they introduce a price per unit- it will be under the guise of a public health measure but it will make them a load of cash too.

 

You'd be surprised though how much the NHS will save though with a pay freeze by my rough maths it will be somewhere in the region of £400 million (average wage (call it £20k pa) x rate of inflation x 1million (the number of people employed by the NHS)). That equates to 0.3% of its budget, that money considering the NHS is "ring-fenced" can then be spent elsewhere. Some of the other stuff which needs doing, e.g. the new buildings, but isn't urgent can be put on hold. There will be savings elsewhere too, I'd think in the main those seperate bits of the NHS which have their own budget will be underspending as people tighten their belts. The entire NHS budget is somewhere in the region of £122 billion, I wouldn't be surprised if what actually gets spent is a few billion less than that. I'm not an economist but by my rough knowledge is that money which isn't spent, but was budgeted for, can be spent elsewhere. Some of that may be used to cover other budgets, which because they have had cuts, don't quite reach the cuts; but some of it can be put towards whatever the powers that be decide they want to do with it, possibly writing off more of the deficit.

Edited June 24, 2010 by rudemedic

[leeslover]

The detail is a bit more complex than that Doc. All from memory but the pay freeze is I think for people earning over £21k, those below it get a rise of £250. I guess this means that cleaners, security staff etc will get a raise but qualified nurses and above won’t. On the other hand they said that they will bring in a rule where nobody in the Civil Service can earn more than some large number of times more than the lowest paid person in their organisation, although I suspect this is a headline grabber and not workable in practice. They also said that they would not reduce total capital expenditure, although they may reallocate it. Again I think this is probably a strategy to stop Labour claiming that they are, “taking money out of the economy,” and won’t happen in practice. Anyways the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, it’s easier to promise spending cuts than to deliver them.

[oafc0000]

The biggest question is if the Libs will support that budget... Quite a few already realing from the VAT announcement...

 

I maintain the "crisis" is being totally overstated. We are a million miles aways from the Greece situation. I also maintain that the burdon of this budget has fallen more on the poor than the rich. But hey, you have all swallowed the Tory pill... Just hope you stay clear of the coolaid

[leeslover]

The biggest question is if the Libs will support that budget... Quite a few already realing from the VAT announcement...

 

I maintain the "crisis" is being totally overstated. We are a million miles aways from the Greece situation. I also maintain that the burdon of this budget has fallen more on the poor than the rich. But hey, you have all swallowed the Tory pill... Just hope you stay clear of the coolaid

Well, debt or no debt I think that most people agree now that Welfare is way out of control and needs dealing with, if Gordy's overdraft gives the impetus to get started on it then it won't be before time.

[oafc0000]

Well, debt or no debt I think that most people agree now that Welfare is way out of control and needs dealing with, if Gordy's overdraft gives the impetus to get started on it then it won't be before time.

 

Welfare is way out of control ? I think some of it needs tweaking... Family Tax Credits for people over £40k going was right. The removal of benefits for sole parents with kids at school was right. Removing / Reducing tax credits for people on less than £40k was nasty, specially seeing as it wasn't part of the speech.

 

I think welfare needed tweaking but I don't think its way out of control. Its always the same old argument. Most the welfare budget is spent on pensions.

Edited June 24, 2010 by oafc0000

[opinions4u]

I maintain the "crisis" is being totally overstated. We are a million miles aways from the Greece situation.

We become significantly worse than Greece if we don't get to a point where the nation spends less than it raises in tax (and by "spend" I include interest payments on debt).

 

The problem with spending more than you earn on an individual level is that you can mask it for years with loans, interest free credit card deals, balance transfers and the occaisonal remortgage. But sooner or later it will inevitably bite you on the arse if you carry on the same way. The interest free card is no longer available, or you get declined a loan, or you can't remortgage because you have no equity left in your home. Or you lose some or all of your income. The only way to stop reaching that point is to spend less than you earn.

 

While the numbers at nation level may be £trillions or £billions rather than £thousands, and the financial instruments used to mask the reality are more complex, the logic is no different. If you spend more than you earn it will catch up with you sooner or later.

 

I also maintain that the burdon of this budget has fallen more on the poor than the rich.

The various tables on the BBC web site suggest different.

 

I do think that the Lib Dem policy of increasing tax thresholds should incentivise more people to work. Combined with reducing company taxation and intiial national insurance savings for job creation it could actually be the start fo a major momentum away from a benefits culture in the UK. Let's get it up to £10k or £12k fast please George.

 

By the way, things like Child Trust Funds, Savings Gateway, Maternity Grants etc being scrapped are entirely right. People should not expect the state to provide these sorts of things.

[oafc0000]

The various tables on the BBC web site suggest different.

 

Don't forget the 25% cuts in budgets of almost every service... The poor need government provided services more than the rich...

 

[leeslover]

Don't forget the 25% cuts in budgets of almost every service... The poor need government provided services more than the rich...

25% rather than the 20% implied by Labour’s plans, unless you have a magic bean plant somewhere then big cuts were going to be made to pay for Gordy’s spending spree whoever was in charge. Anyway, the well off get plenty from the government, and frankly I don’t care if some people are worse off if they have been sitting on their arse happy to let other people pay their way, pay for them to breed etc.