LaticsPete Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 How can you substantiate an opinion? Are you Roger Irrelevant in real life? Except you didn't post it as an "opinion" but a statement of fact.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 About ten of the last thirteen seasons have been declared 'seasons of progression' or 'seasons of consolidation.' That's what happens when you keep appointing the wrong managers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketsbaia Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 God only knows. As long as there are stars above you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Have the board of directors stated anywhere ie in an interview, paper etc their expectations for this season? I don't know. But it doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Except you didn't post it as an "opinion" but a statement of fact.... Don't be so stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
De_La_Vega Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) About ten of the last thirteen seasons have been declared 'seasons of progression' or 'seasons of consolidation.' It's why the club has got to a stage where it's begun to plan for a permanent lower division existence (little stadium), and why many hard core fans have come to see the likes of Blackpool and Barnsley as clubs we can't really hope to compete with, and Bolton, Preston, Burnley and Blackburn (to name only local examples of clubs we comfortably competed with for a generation) as untouchable giants. In 1997 (or '94?) the club embarked on the road to nowhere. I feel like a bit of a bully, given the abuse that these posts usually get, but I can't help but disagree here I'm afraid Corp. Not against your doom and gloom in general, but that comment above is a bit cheap and far too easy. You say that our constant "seasons of progression" have brought the club down, but how can going into administration and nearly out of business be seriously considered progress? I'd suggest that Latics have actually been in a cycle of boom and bust, and that there's been no consolidation or building year on year. Just look at the player turn over that we've had over the last 4 seasons - it has been ridiculous. We've got a good youth system, and a bit of money to spend so if we took a 2 or 3 year stance and decided to assemble a team organically then there is no reason that we shouldn't see success. Too many instances of 8 or 9 changes a summer is the problem in my eyes. Edited August 6, 2009 by De_La_Vega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I think we are better taking a cautious and gradual approach. Some people might think we have to go for immediate promotion Kets, but we know that time is on our side. Well lets have it right, we dont exactly have the means for a 'quick promotion' without throwing the club into even more of a financial black hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I think we are better taking a cautious and gradual approach. Some people might think we have to go for immediate promotion Kets, but we know that time is on our side. So cautious and gradualist have we been that we are left in the abject position described above. How much more cautious can you get than thirteen consecutive seasons in the third division? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTLEY Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 It's all down to money though, we don't have a lot, the owners(in football terms)do not have a lot and the clubs income is reducing by 20% YOY. So do we risk bankrupting the club by investing more than we need to on the new stadium or do we give ourselves scope to develop as the tide changes in terms of income/running costs? Do we hang onto BP in the hope that the value of the land will start to increase and maybe the original plan can be realised(though personally I am not entirley positive that this could be revived even if we wanted it to)? Do we try and run BP on a shoestring and invest as far as possible in the first team to go for imediate success to bring more through the gate? Do we explore other avenues of income generation bearing in mind all of these require investment and have risk attached to them? I don't know the answer to any of this and without knowing the facts privvy inside the boardroom can't make a decison either way. We are where we are, we need to arrest the revenue decline and start moving forward or else the club will become unsustainable. I do see a time of a regional 3 and 4 th tier of the pro game so agree we need to act now. How we do it though is the issue, what have Burnley, Preston, Blackpool etc done that we haven't or is it the initial wealth of their investors that have allowed progression(and maybe loyalty from their town). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) I feel like a bit of a bully, given the abuse that these posts usually get, but I can't help but disagree here I'm afraid Corp. Not against your doom and gloom in general, but that comment above is a bit cheap and far too easy. You say that our constant "seasons of progression" have brought the club down, but how can going into administration and nearly out of business be seriously considered progress? I'd suggest that Latics have actually been in a cycle of boom and bust, and that there's been no consolidation or building year on year. Just look at the player turn over that we've had over the last 4 seasons - it has been ridiculous. We've got a good youth system, and a bit of money to spend so if we took a 2 or 3 year stance and decided to assemble a team organically then there is no reason that we shouldn't see success. Too many instances of 8 or 9 changes a summer is the problem in my eyes. I don't think they've been seasons of progression-that's a term used by others (interchangeably with 'season of consolidation') as a euphemism for 'going nowhere and we know it.' What the last fifteen years have really been is seasons of stagnation or, perhaps, seasons of degeneration. What you say in your second paragraph seems halfway plausible until you consider how many years we've been repeating this or similar. Edited August 6, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 So cautious and gradualist have we been that we are left in the abject position described above. How much more cautious can you get than thirteen consecutive seasons in the third division? But is 13 consecutive years in this division as a result of being overly cautious? Or a string of what effectively proved to be poor decisions in hindsight by the powers that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Well lets have it right, we dont exactly have the means for a 'quick promotion' without throwing the club into even more of a financial black hole. Bingo! And that's why the club is preparing for a permanent lower division existence with the proposed little lower division stadium. Look north to Rochdale or west towards Bury and see our future. Sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razza699 Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Im just glad to have a club to support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Don't be so stupid. [/quot The power of abuse is overrated Corp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) How we do it though is the issue, what have Burnley, Preston, Blackpool etc done that we haven't or is it the initial wealth of their investors that have allowed progression(and maybe loyalty from their town). As pointed out in a post on a different thread yesterday, the fans of these clubs are no more loyal than Latics fans when the going gets rough. Look at the gates they, as well Bolton and Blackburn, got when they were struggling at the bottom of this division or in the basement league. Edited August 6, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Bingo! And that's why the club is preparing for a permanent lower division existence with the proposed little lower division stadium. Look north to Rochdale or west towards Bury and see our future. Sad. Well I think that would depend on the facililities included which will make the club self sustainable. By all means correct me if im wrong but the only income Rochdale and Bury have coming in is matchday income, plus renting out their stadiums to FC Utd/Hornets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 The power of abuse is overrated Corp. It wasn't abuse. Did I say anywhere that I was presenting the statement as fact as opposed to opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Well I think that would depend on the facililities included which will make the club self sustainable. By all means correct me if im wrong but the only income Rochdale and Bury have coming in is matchday income, plus renting out their stadiums to FC Utd/Hornets? The aim is (and this is mere opinion and not fact, but we shall see) clearly to try to make the club self sustainable as a lower division outfit. Hence a size of stadium where games against few big clubs are anticipated. It isn't rocket science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 But is 13 consecutive years in this division as a result of being overly cautious? Or a string of what effectively proved to be poor decisions in hindsight by the powers that be? Both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 So cautious and gradualist have we been that we are left in the abject position described above. How much more cautious can you get than thirteen consecutive seasons in the third division? We have not had a cautious budget for the past two seasons, as the signings of Windass, Kabba, Crossley etc proved. We gave it one almighty push, it did not work. That did show ambition, Sheridan was backed. It just did not work out for a variety of reasons, that are easy to see iwth the benefit of hindsight. If the TTA have only the money to rebuild to what we have got now, then that is our lot. But £10m is not overly catious. Chris Moore was not overly cautious, he seriously checked money at it . So a more steady approach is the right one. Joe Royle (the first time) did not throw caution to the wimd, he cautiosuly changed things. I am afraid you seem guilty of rewriting history to back up your argument Corp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 It wasn't abuse. Did I say anywhere that I was presenting the statement as fact as opposed to opinion? Let me get this straight. When you said: QUOTE (Corporal_Jones @ Aug 6 2009, 10:42 AM) many hard core fans have come to see the likes of Blackpool and Barnsley as clubs we can't really hope to compete with that wasn't presented as a fact?!!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 The last 13 years have been a mixed bag. Some years circumstances dictated that we were just happy to stay in the division, but at other times there have been realistic efforts to gain promotion ... unfortunately, each change of manager takes that progress back a couple of years while he gets his own team together and tries to do it his way. It has to be said that TTA's track record of signing managers has been generally worse than those managers' track records of signing players... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTLEY Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 As pointed out in a post on a different thread yesterday, the fans of these clubs are no more loyal than Latics fans when the going gets rough. Look at the gates they, as well Bolton and Blackburn, got when they were struggling at the bottom of this division or in the basement league. I haven't seen that thread so apologies therefore cannot quote on its validity, Its not the fans that go week in week out. I don't think the town is enthused or sees the club as something that they should be involved in or loyal to, which is maybe different than i other such towns. Maybe new facilities will help get the people of oldham more enthused and feeling part of the club rather than it just exiting in parallel to the town and its every day existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 So cautious and gradualist have we been that we are left in the abject position described above. How much more cautious can you get than thirteen consecutive seasons in the third division? You might attempt to turn your home into a huge castle overnight but overreach yourself and end up burning down the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 We have not had a cautious budget for the past two seasons, as the signings of Windass, Kabba, Crossley etc proved. We gave it one almighty push, it did not work. That did show ambition, Sheridan was backed. It just did not work out for a variety of reasons, that are easy to see iwth the benefit of hindsight. If the TTA have only the money to rebuild to what we have got now, then that is our lot. But £10m is not overly catious. Chris Moore was not overly cautious, he seriously checked money at it . So a more steady approach is the right one. Joe Royle (the first time) did not throw caution to the wimd, he cautiosuly changed things. I am afraid you seem guilty of rewriting history to back up your argument Corp. Ah, let's trot out the Joe Royle argument again. One that belongs in an entirely different era, full of feats it's increasingly impossible to repeat. Was money really thrown at promotion in recent seasons? As was argued over many times last season, one moment we're told that we have a large playing budget, the next it's 'the fouth smallest in the division' or some such. Then it supposedly goes up a few notches with the arrival of a few has-beens and rejects (er, I mean loan signings.) The argument changes with the wind. Personally, I always thought playing budgets were set at the beginning of a season, not altered up or downwards as the season progresses, depending on what suits the prevailing reality. '£10 million (where's this figure come from?) is not overly cautious'? It depends what you're talking about. It seems that this (abitrary) sum is to be spent on a small stadium with lower division football in mind. That's caution, whichever way you look at it. The tragedy of the Chris Moore period is that he didn't see the job through (and that he wasn't worth £400 million as opposed to £40m). His time represented, with hindsight, the last chance to get out of this division and consolidate a poistion in the Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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