Football Club finances

[Takemeanywhere]

I very much doubt that any club from the top of the Premiership to the bottom of the Conference North is truly self-sustaining, if you actually examine the full extent of their accounts.

 

Hereford. And their accounts bear it out.

 

If only we could become self-sustaining, then we could be the next Hereford.

 

I sit somewhere in between Zorro's 'all or bust' and this idea of being self-sustaining. A football club needs to be backed by an individual/individuals who are willing to cover losses large enough to give the team a chance. I'm not yet convinced that TTA have ceased to be just that.

 

[garcon]

Hereford. And their accounts bear it out.

And look where it's got them.

 

Besides, I doubt even Hereford would still be around if Graham Turner hadn't bailed them out, so are they really self-sustaining?

[latic12345]

You big chicken.

 

I would get to act like a giant cock and be paid in chickens...

[Takemeanywhere]

I would get to act like a giant chicken and be paid in cocks...

 

Fixed for you.

 

[Corporal_Jones]

There is a report on the BBC about David Sullivan looking at the state of footballs finances. He is looking to buy another club, so will undoubtedly have access to some clubs budgets with a view to buy.

Clubs are borrowing against future gate AND TV money.

He predicts some clubs will go bust, and he is in a better porositon that you or I.

 

I know the old adage was you have to speculate to accumulate, but that was pre the mess Gordon Brown created, which is ironic considering his prudent and sensible approach in the early days as Chancellor.

 

We simply have to be self sustaining, and not be borrowing left right and centre.

Debt is debt and has to be paid back at some point.

 

In my view, it hammers home (pardon the pun) the need to run a club prudently, and we are lucky to have the TTA, and why I support the move to Failsworth despite concerns and reservations about the location, and making sure expansion is possible. if the need arises.

 

Clubs will go under

 

 

There was never any prudent ands sensible approach from Brown. The debt-based economy began when the Thatcher governments deregulated the financial markets and began to dismantle Britain's industrial base-an approach continued in its entirety by New Labour. What was going on was in large part masked by the illusion of an economic boom based on oil revenues which are now disappearing. Once the industrial economy was replaced (in terms of the numbers employed) by the low wage McJob and call centre economy, with an ever-expanding layer of fee-paying students, the debt timebomb was bound to start ticking.

 

I don't recall anybody on here seriously advocating that the club starts to 'borrow left, right and centre', but let us be under no illusions about what 'running the club prudently' means for the permanently lower division outfit it has been allowed to become over the past decade-and-a-half. It means survival at this level (at best), a bottomed-out fanbase and, of course, no chance of competing with clubs with larger fanbases and wealthier owners.

 

 

[Stitch_KTF]

What is 'self-sustainable' anyway? This buzz term means all without something to put it into context.

 

Assuming income is fixed it is the wage bill which governs a football club's ability to break even. If we released our 4/5 top earners that would be probably make us 'self-sustainable' overnight (for now). Selling Taylor could see us paying a dividend. So, is the aim to be 'self-sustainable' merely an attempt to maintain the current wage bill without owner subsidy? Or are we aiming to have one of the best playing budgets in Division 3 without owner subsidy?

 

Hopefully the club will offer some clarity on the 'self-sustainable' goal when the plans are released.

[Corporal_Jones]

Bet they are pissing their pants at Notts County and Portsmouth.

 

 

 

They won't be. But why emulate them as opposed to those clubs who have manged to attain some success without nearly going bust?

 

The choice presented by the Nodding Dogs of permanent mediocrity or bankcruptcy doesn't doesn'twash.

[Corporal_Jones]

How would we be quids in? There isn’t some promised land where you are suddenly financially sorted and funded to stay at that level, when teams at all levels are bankrupting themselves to stay competitive we would have to do the same if we want to have the same level of funding as them. This is where the Corp misses the point, a mega-rich owner might buy promotion (or he might spend it and fail) but it doesn’t mean anything unless he is prepared to continue the spending, Championship money doesn’t make you competitive against other teams that have the same and also higher gates etc. The only way to get success and keep it is off-field income, punching above your weight and generalised good luck.

 

 

 

I'm under no such illusions, actually.

 

This is the reality: without wealthy owners prepared to spend we will never again establish ourselves in the second-tier. A club established in the Championship stands more chance (although there are no guarantees) of attracting continued investment than a club merely trying to keep its head above water in the third or fourth division. Even attempts at sustainability (whatever that means in footballing terms) will stand more chance of succeeding at a club ensconced at a higher level.

 

It hardly takes a genius to work any of this out. It's all hypothetical, however, as no serious investor would give a second glance to a club that screams lack of ambition so loudly that it has begun to shed its hardcore fanbase.

[Corporal_Jones]

I want to watch Oldham Athletic for more than 3 more years though and I wouldn't want to watch the fall out from that as we fly down the leagues into getting pasted in league 2.

 

 

 

I guarantee you that this is what will happen under the club's current 'plan.'

 

[Corporal_Jones]

I could underatand your view if you were owner of the club, but you want the excitement at someone else's expense.

 

After supporting Latics for nearly sixty years, I can count exciting seasons on one hand, but I still look forward to having the Club to support.

 

 

 

So previous success was at our own expense, was it?

 

The current club 'plan' will doubtless guarantee that you continue to have a club to support, but for a town like Oldham (as opposed to, say, a little rural market or commuter town), permanent lower division mediocrity is pointless-and in the long term ensures the loss of full-time professional football in the town.

 

[Corporal_Jones]

we really need to get stable and soon, our situation is poor and while there are a lot of clubs in the fire t the moment were just simmering on the outside of it, it is around about the make or break period for a lot of clubs including us, we either do something that gets us stable, take risks but not too much of one (which is what i think the new stadium is doing for us) or we end up in the fire like the rest of them

 

i remember reading about scunthorpe and how they are one of only a few clubs who are currently financially stable in the top 2 divisions and i think that is mainly down to new stadium, think if we get this new stadium we should be ok, looking at colchester aswell they seem to be stable at the moment aswell thanks hugely to the income of the new stadium.

 

infact if you look at all clubs who have received new stadiums they seem to be doing alright,whereas those riding on the finances from players are facing huge problems

 

 

 

 

Colchester cannot be stable (if, indeed, they really are) due to a stadium they only recently moved into. Do you have any evidence that Scunthorpe are (so it's said) stable because of their ground? (In five or so years both clubs will be back in the fourth division anyway.)

 

It seems that it's only because TTA have always talked about the stadium being the key to future viability that so many people think the Failsworth project is going to deliver some sort of miracle. Who would have thought back in 2004 that dwindling band of hardcore supporters would be reduced to placing blind faith in an hypothetical and ever-shrinking stadium?

 

By the way, it was only relatively recently that those cheering loudest for Failsworth were claiming that TTA had brought us stability. Funny how the mantra has changed to one that says that only a downscaling of the club can make us stable. And all without a change of ventriloquist.

[Corporal_Jones]

And look where it's got them.

 

Besides, I doubt even Hereford would still be around if Graham Turner hadn't bailed them out, so are they really self-sustaining?

 

 

 

Hereford is a small market town in rural surroundings. It is nothing like Oldham and has an entirely different kind of history.

 

Success for them is death for Latics.

[garcon]

Their is nothing glorious about watching your team getting absolutely wacked by crapper teams than we are playing now and having an even less talented squad lets put ourselves in that position of having an even smaller group of players on 2-300 pound a week and then we will see if the grass really is greener on the other side.

There is no other side for the grass to be greener on - what you describe is where we're headed anyway. The only difference is the route we take.

 

Colchester cannot be stable (if, indeed, they really are) due to a stadium they only recently moved into. Do you have any evidence that Scunthorpe are (so it's said) stable because of their ground? (In five or so years both clubs will be back in the fourth division anyway.)

 

It seems that it's only because TTA have always talked about the stadium being the key to future viability that so many people think the Failsworth project is going to deliver some sort of miracle. Who would have thought back in 2004 that dwindling band of hardcore supporters would be reduced to placing blind faith in an hypothetical and ever-shrinking stadium?

 

By the way, it was only relatively recently that those cheering loudest for Failsworth were claiming that TTA had brought us stability. Funny how the mantra has changed to one that says that only a downscaling of the club can make us stable. And all without a change of ventriloquist.

I am similarly confused as to how spending £20M+ to build a new ground somehow provides an immediate cure to all our financial woes. If nothing else changes, logic suggests it simply makes our financial position £20M (or what ever the net expense would be) worse.

 

You have to wonder at how easily some fans have bought the mantra of downscaling, especially when I hear that there are more than a few mutterings of concern in the corridors of power at Oldham Civic Centre about the Failsworth scheme (and I don't mean Jim McMahon and his NIMBYites, I mean in the context of the long term interests of the club - and therefore the town).

 

(Edit) And another thing. Who's to say that by the time Failsworth is built (2012/13 season at best) the general economic climate won't have improved enough to make a redevelopment of BP viable once more?

Edited January 12, 2010 by garcon

[Diego_Sideburns]

So previous success was at our own expense, was it?

 

I was referring to Zorro's wish for excitement even if it meant the club going out of business, which seems to be the attitude of many would-be football club owners. David Gold said today that, in spite of the recklessness of football clubs borrowing against the prospects of future success, and his experiences in running other businesses, there is nothing like the excitement of being involved in the running of a football club.

 

The current club 'plan' will doubtless guarantee that you continue to have a club to support, but for a town like Oldham (as opposed to, say, a little rural market or commuter town), permanent lower division mediocrity is pointless-and in the long term ensures the loss of full-time professional football in the town.

 

We know. You tell us on a daily basis. I'm waiting patiently to see what the 'plan' is.

[oafc0000]

The ideal of self-sustained stability was a noble one, but it is time to accept it as nowt but an impossible myth.

 

I very much doubt that any club from the top of the Premiership to the bottom of the Conference North is truly self-sustaining, if you actually examine the full extent of their accounts.

 

If you accept that then what, ultimately, is there to lose by spending millions you haven't got on a bid for glory? Quite frankly I'd rather see the club do that and go out of business than continue suffering the long and painful death by cancer that has currently set in.

 

Oh, and this idea that going out of business would be some kind of permanent end is nonsense. If OAFC (2004) Ltd does end up in liquidation and Oldham Athletic AFC are expelled from the Football League, then I have no doubt that Pine Villa FC will rise from the ashes and be found playing in the second division of the Manchester League in front of a small band of die hard latics fans.

 

[oafc0000]

We know. You tell us on a daily basis. I'm waiting patiently to see what the 'plan' is.

 

Looks like you are in for a long wait... I wonder what else will get knocked down / built on in the mean time.

[GlossopLatic]

What is 'self-sustainable' anyway? This buzz term means all without something to put it into context.

 

Assuming income is fixed it is the wage bill which governs a football club's ability to break even. If we released our 4/5 top earners that would be probably make us 'self-sustainable' overnight (for now). Selling Taylor could see us paying a dividend. So, is the aim to be 'self-sustainable' merely an attempt to maintain the current wage bill without owner subsidy? Or are we aiming to have one of the best playing budgets in Division 3 without owner subsidy?

 

Hopefully the club will offer some clarity on the 'self-sustainable' goal when the plans are released.

 

Football clubs have been spending their 100 year plus existance based on people bailing them out as is currently happening right up and down the country. They are not profitable and their are other industries with alot less hassle and and have bigger profit margins which people can get into. A few years ago Phillip Green after making over £1billion was asked if he fancied investing in his boyhood team Tottenham, he said no as it wasn't profitable and due to demanding fans wishing to see success who would not understand the cost involved of being more successful it wasn't worth it. Alan Sugar also said something similar.

 

The self sustainable idea comes so that they don't have to be bailed out by these rich men and can fund themselves. At Latics we can't becom,e self sufficent on football business activities alone players wages are too high and the added revenue doesn't cover the cost of investing in a team competing at the very top (See Chris Moore era) So to stop us having to go cap in hand to some rich man we can fund our own squad through activities which aren't dependendent on the success of the team. Thats what the Oldham Arena idea was all about, thats what we believe the move to failsworth is about although we can't say as we haven't seen the plans for the project and how anyonelse can make a call if it is right or wrong is beyond me. So it basically means we will be able to pay for our own squad. Give a man a fish you will feed him for a day, teach him how to fish you will feed him for a lifetime.

 

 

[oafc0000]

There is no other side for the grass to be greener on - what you describe is where we're headed anyway. The only difference is the route we take.

 

 

I am similarly confused as to how spending £20M+ to build a new ground somehow provides an immediate cure to all our financial woes. If nothing else changes, logic suggests it simply makes our financial position £20M (or what ever the net expense would be) worse.

 

You have to wonder at how easily some fans have bought the mantra of downscaling, especially when I hear that there are more than a few mutterings of concern in the corridors of power at Oldham Civic Centre about the Failsworth scheme (and I don't mean Jim McMahon and his NIMBYites, I mean in the context of the long term interests of the club - and therefore the town).

 

(Edit) And another thing. Who's to say that by the time Failsworth is built (2012/13 season at best) the general economic climate won't have improved enough to make a redevelopment of BP viable once more?

 

again....

 

 

[Zorrro]

So it basically means we will be able to pay for our own squad. Give a man a fish you will feed him for a day, teach him how to fish you will feed him for a lifetime.

 

It makes you wonder why no one else has done it before, doesn't it?

 

I suspect it's because self-sustainability simply won't work in football.

[GlossopLatic]

There is no other side for the grass to be greener on - what you describe is where we're headed anyway. The only difference is the route we take.

 

Exactly it will be a different route the one your suggesting which ineviatbly leads us to administration has no turn offs as we won't even be able to bring in anyone a crap team and having a transfer embargo starting on -10 points really isn't worth it. The way we are going at the moment does leave us with a number of side roads where we can turn off onto another road if we pull our finger out we can easily avoid relegation certainly this season and go forwardif we are prudent with our resources and maximise them.

[Corporal_Jones]

There is no other side for the grass to be greener on - what you describe is where we're headed anyway. The only difference is the route we take.

 

 

I am similarly confused as to how spending £20M+ to build a new ground somehow provides an immediate cure to all our financial woes. If nothing else changes, logic suggests it simply makes our financial position £20M (or what ever the net expense would be) worse.

 

You have to wonder at how easily some fans have bought the mantra of downscaling, especially when I hear that there are more than a few mutterings of concern in the corridors of power at Oldham Civic Centre about the Failsworth scheme (and I don't mean Jim McMahon and his NIMBYites, I mean in the context of the long term interests of the club - and therefore the town).

 

(Edit) And another thing. Who's to say that by the time Failsworth is built (2012/13 season at best) the general economic climate won't have improved enough to make a redevelopment of BP viable once more?

 

 

 

 

This is just it. To a large extent, the football boom coincided with the economic boom. Clubs that rode that boom to advance their status and build their fanbases seem, on the whole, to be in better shape (although not without problems) than those that chose to shrink away in the corner. I suspect that sooner or later will will see the inflation of another economic boom. If we are one of the clubs that manages to ride it, we may emerge stronger. I doubt if we'd end up weaker than at present. The boom may well turn out to be artificial (in fact it most certainly will be), but then again, so was the last one and the one before that. It didn't, as I say, prevent some clubs, with astute management at boardroom level, from emerging stronger.

[Diego_Sideburns]

Looks like you are in for a long wait... I wonder what else will get knocked down / built on in the mean time.

 

Why? What have you heard about the timetable?

[Corporal_Jones]

We know. You tell us on a daily basis. I'm waiting patiently to see what the 'plan' is.

 

 

 

And you tend to tell me that I've told you on an almost daily basis, which makes me wonder why you wish to silence those who don't swallow whole everything the club tells them.

 

You might think you're waiting for the club to announce it's plan, but to all intents and purposes it's done so already.

[garcon]

Exactly it will be a different route the one your suggesting which ineviatbly leads us to administration has no turn offs as we won't even be able to bring in anyone a crap team and having a transfer embargo starting on -10 points really isn't worth it. The way we are going at the moment does leave us with a number of side roads where we can turn off onto another road if we pull our finger out we can easily avoid relegation certainly this season and go forwardif we are prudent with our resources and maximise them.

What side roads would they be then?

 

We're on the verge of turning into one - and it's a pretty steep cul-de-sac in Failsworth.

[Corporal_Jones]

The self sustainable idea comes so that they don't have to be bailed out by these rich men and can fund themselves. At Latics we can't becom,e self sufficent on football business activities alone players wages are too high and the added revenue doesn't cover the cost of investing in a team competing at the very top (See Chris Moore era) So to stop us having to go cap in hand to some rich man we can fund our own squad through activities which aren't dependendent on the success of the team. Thats what the Oldham Arena idea was all about, thats what we believe the move to failsworth is about although we can't say as we haven't seen the plans for the project and how anyonelse can make a call if it is right or wrong is beyond me. So it basically means we will be able to pay for our own squad. Give a man a fish you will feed him for a day, teach him how to fish you will feed him for a lifetime.

 

 

 

But the Failsworth project is very much a downscaled version of the (ahem) arena.

 

Even if it were to somehow succeed in acheiving 'self-sustainability' , we will not be able to compete with any but the smaller of clubs in the FL.