Election 2010 - Post Campaign Vote

[leeslover]

That is actually a decent point... But I don't think the government did that...

 

It is true that if you got to University you are statistically more likely to earn more / hold higher positions... Its bloody obvious that if you do a degree in Media Studies your options are going to be limited...

 

If people went into such degrees thinking they would be the next CEO of BA then I don't think the blame lies with the Government there...

That stands to reason, given that every lawyer, doctor, actuary, accountant etc went to Uni, and the people who go there are on average* those who achieved better in school, they would be expected to average higher wages. It's not to say that there aren't a lot of graduates who earn not one penny more on account of having studied, in fact some might have done better to go out and start work earlier and get ahead in a trade or getting professional skills in the workplace.

 

 

*asterix because I know that not everyone wants to go to Uni and there are plenty of people for who school wasn't their thing but are a long way from thick and do very well for themselves etc

[garcon]

I know a couple of fairly senior accountants who didn't go to Uni, but your main point stands.

[oafc0000]

I know a couple of fairly senior accountants who didn't go to Uni, but your main point stands.

 

While you still haven't backed up yours...

[leeslover]

I know a couple of fairly senior accountants who didn't go to Uni, but your main point stands.

This is true actually, and shows that even when I'm wrong, I'm right I made a brief foray into the profession after graduating (and I mean brief), there was a lad there who had joined them at 16 as an office junior, I think he was about 20 by the time I was there and he had enough industry qualifications to go straight onto starting his Chartered Accountancy qualifications, plus he knew the job like the back of his hand already. Bet he's earning more than most of us (OK, not Garcon ) these days, and he was a rough scrote from Bermondsey

[oafc0000]

That stands to reason, given that every lawyer, doctor, actuary, accountant etc went to Uni, and the people who go there are on average* those who achieved better in school, they would be expected to average higher wages. It's not to say that there aren't a lot of graduates who earn not one penny more on account of having studied, in fact some might have done better to go out and start work earlier and get ahead in a trade or getting professional skills in the workplace.

 

 

*asterix because I know that not everyone wants to go to Uni and there are plenty of people for who school wasn't their thing but are a long way from thick and do very well for themselves etc

 

There are tons of jobs which pay more than I currently earn which are more hands on and would not have required me to go University...

 

But I like the job I do, its the job I wanted to do, it pretty much did require a degree (imo) and I glad I did it... The four years having fun at Uni was worth it alone

 

Its not all about end salary...

Edited May 19, 2010 by oafc0000

[garcon]

While you still haven't backed up yours...

That the government were guilty of falsely boosting the hopes of all those students they ushered into higher education?

 

I believe they did, by overestimating and overstating the demand for the kind of professional roles many of those students envisaged going into. But I'm not going to start trawling for quotes to back that up, it was a central theme in the government's higher education and employment policy.

 

One of the side effects of this push for so many students to go into degree courses has been an inflation in basic qualification requirements to enter certain industries. Most IT recruiters these days will demand either a degree or something like 10 years experience. With over 20 years experience I don't need a degree to progress, but if I was starting afresh now I would.

 

I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or not. I get the feeling that the emphasis on academic further education has been too great, to the demise of old fashioned practical 'tech courses and learning on the job from 18.

 

 

[garcon]

By the way, re the government element of that - I'm not banging a party line here, I think all of them have been guilty of this to some extent.

[oafc0000]

I don't think its ever a problem to educate our society...

 

I would scrap tuition fees overnight if I ran the world and keep grants... and to fund it I would stop traitor tax dodgers like Leeslovers from coming back to use our health service

Edited May 19, 2010 by oafc0000

[garcon]

I don't think its ever a problem to educate our society...

...whether they like it or not?

 

How terribly authoritarian!

[oafc0000]

...whether they like it or not?

 

How terribly authoritarian!

 

I don't think anyone forced anyone to go to University

[garcon]

By limiting the alternatives?

 

Seriously, that is an area of policy that needs sensible review, to work out the good and bad in terms of policy over the last decade or two and trying to resolve the problems. There are still far too many 16-24 year olds who are NEETS (not in employment, education or training).

[oafc0000]

By limiting the alternatives?

 

Seriously, that is an area of policy that needs sensible review, to work out the good and bad in terms of policy over the last decade or two and trying to resolve the problems. There are still far too many 16-24 year olds who are NEETS (not in employment, education or training).

 

You put them into anything other than jobs and people say you are trying to mask the unemployment numbers... Damed if you do dammed if you don't...

[leeslover]

I don't think its ever a problem to educate our society...

 

I would scrap tuition fees overnight if I ran the world and keep grants... and to fund it I would stop traitor tax dodgers like Leeslovers from coming back to use our health service

Why would I go from somewhere with good and efficient health care which I have insurance for go to to a place where health is one of the worst managed sections of the whole economy? Oh, and as I told you, I do pay full UK tax and I'm only scheduled to be out here for 6 months so no guarantees of becoming tax free. But you know what, if I can I will do it like a shot, and I won;t feel one bit bad about it. Incidentally, as you don;t want too many working class people to become middle class, aren't you concerned about too many of them getting an education?

[oafc0000]

Why would I go from somewhere with good and efficient health care which I have insurance for go to to a place where health is one of the worst managed sections of the whole economy? Oh, and as I told you, I do pay full UK tax and I'm only scheduled to be out here for 6 months so no guarantees of becoming tax free. But you know what, if I can I will do it like a shot, and I won;t feel one bit bad about it. Incidentally, as you don;t want too many working class people to become middle class, aren't you concerned about too many of them getting an education?

 

The bit about taxes was a joke fella...

 

As for not wanting people to middle class... I never said that... I said the aim should be to make being working class a better life in itself silly

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

The bit about taxes was a joke fella...

 

LL never jokes about such things - he goes postal every time you say "taxpayers' money", as if every pound of it is his. And woe betide those who venture into the realms of "Government spending".

[latic12345]

LL never jokes about such things - he goes postal every time you say "taxpayers' money", as if every pound of it is his. And woe betide those who venture into the realms of "Government spending".

 

I thought you'd finished on this thread ;)

 

Regarding Education, I am afraid this is one area I am particularly elitist. I do not believe in the extension of University Education to all. Education is a pyramid for 2 reasons:

 

1. Not everybody is good at the academic stuff

2. Not everybody wants to do the academic stuff

 

Some people are just not suited to University. They are much better off getting vocational training or getting a trade under their belts. Unfortunately, the policy of openeing it up made everyone think it is a good idea for them. Frankly it isn't and it took a strong personality to say anything to the contrary, particularly where I was educated. This has resulted in lots of people leaving university and hating work as they are doing jobs they considered "beneath them". It's not a great situation. Labour, ironically, neglected the alternatives and believed everyone would benefit from degrees. A lot of those created in recent times are frankly useless. It's not the content I worry about more the rigour of research. This is not even restricted to "New" Universities. I was reviewing a Economic Competition Theory paper for a friend studying an MBA at Said Business School, Oxford last year. I remember thinking, whilst reading it, that I wrote something similar for my Economics A Level. She got a distinction with the paper that was virtually unaltered. I couldn't believe.

 

Education for the sake of it is not always a good thing. It shifts people expectations when sometimes that person is frankly not suited. We need a wide ranging education system that suits the need of the individual. We do not need a University focussed education system.

 

One thing I will caveat this with is that it is very easy for me to say before people pick holes. I was privileged enough to be educated at one of the best institutions in the world for one year. It was an amazing experience and I was challenged in ways I never thought academia could. I learnt more about myself that year and my first year of work than I ever have.

 

Anyway rant over... I'm sure people will bite but it is my opinion on the whole system for what it is worth.

Edited May 19, 2010 by latic12345

[leeslover]

LL never jokes about such things - he goes postal every time you say "taxpayers' money", as if every pound of it is his. And woe betide those who venture into the realms of "Government spending".

Well, as you know I am no fan of other people spending my money - I think I can spend it in ways that please me more myself (insert (possibly true) slanderous material here). It does add insult to injury when they take it off me to spend on screwing other people's lives up as well. If that was my objective then likewise I could use my earnings to promote evil far better than any bureaucracy, so I just don't see the point.

 

Oh hang on, I couldn;t with the last bit, if I just wanted to gradually introduce a strata of hopeless none-working people whose kids have no future. I'd need over a decade of legistative authority to do that.

[Stitch_KTF]

But I like the job I do, its the job I wanted to do, it pretty much did require a degree (imo) and I glad I did it... The four years having fun at Uni was worth it alone

 

 

Considering the thousands of pigeon English forum posts I suppose it had to be computers at a former polytechnic for young Zero's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bless.

[Stitch_KTF]

I think I can spend it in ways that please me more myself (insert (possibly true) slanderous material here).

 

I hear you tipped a prostitute to piss on you?

[oafc0000]

Considering the thousands of pigeon English forum posts I suppose it had to be computers at a former polytechnic for young Zero's.

Bless.

 

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Considering the thousands of pigeon English forum posts I suppose it had to be computers at a former polytechnic for young Zero's.

 

 

The word you're looking for is "pidgin".

 

Oh dear.

[Stitch_KTF]

 

The word you're looking for is "pidgin".

 

Oh dear.

 

 

I actually considered that and, given the context, thought it wise to check and thus pre-empt your post.

 

Pigeon English

 

 

No flies on me Mr Tulsehill.

[garcon]

[oafc0000]

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I actually considered that and, given the context, thought it wise to check and thus pre-empt your post.

 

Pigeon English

 

 

No flies on me Mr Tulsehill.

 

Very good. There are flies on you, but that's because you smell, and not wholly because your English is questionable.

 

The OED has this to say on the subject. It seems that some obscure and outright bad writers have indeed got the phrase "pigeon English" into print.

 

Chambers, which is a terrible dictionary, is, if anything, even more in your favour, elevating "pigeon" to almost equal status with "pidgin". Even more in your favour is that the word is in any case a corruption of a Chinese word meaning "business".

 

pidgin n a Chinese corruption of business (also pidg'eon or pig'eon); affair, concern (also pidg'eon or pig'eon) inf; any combination and distortion of two languages as a means of communication.

 

pidgin English n a jargon, mainly English in vocabulary with Chinese arrangement, used in communication between Chinese and foreigners; any lingua franca consisting of English and another language.

 

Under "pigeon", Chambers even advises those who can't afford a Concise OED to see "pidgin" (sense 2).

 

But of course you knew that, and foxed me good and proper. Like I say, I'm done with this godforsaken thread.