Capital Punishment

[help_shiny]

I'm with Silent Bob on this one. The American justice system is horiffically racist from the studies I've read.

 

I'd agree with that but think that's little to do with capital punishment in this country. Also, think there's been confusing overlap between this thread and the Tottenham riot thread.

[Ackey]

It's to do with this as it shows how a system can be corrupted.

 

I'd also beg of anyone willing to support the death penalty to go here:

 

And watch the videos.

[Crusoe]

and on another note - if anyone fancies setting up a London Freikorps to cleanse the streets of our fair capital of riotous youth give me a shout.

To arms!

 

Haha, I assume a deliberately provocative choice of phrase there? Freikorps indeed...

[help_shiny]

Haha, I assume a deliberately provocative choice of phrase there? Freikorps indeed...

 

guilty as charged ;-)

[Crusoe]

Heh.

[leeslover]

I hugely admired the korean shopkeepers who went out and shot at the LA rioters who were threatening their businesses. That's the Big Society in action.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I hugely admired the korean shopkeepers who went out and shot at the LA rioters who were threatening their businesses. That's the Big Society in action.

 

Why is this in the capital punishment thread?

 

Anyway - Ackey and I are saying that the capital punishment regime and criminal justice system have become the tools of American racism. Who would it be in this country? The Irish? The mentally ill? Anyone else?

[Ackey]

Anyway - Ackey and I are saying that the capital punishment regime and criminal justice system have become the tools of American racism. Who would it be in this country? The Irish? The mentally ill? Anyone else?

Exactly.

 

Case example

 

 

 

We should also consider the countries which have the death penalty and note that most - I accept not all - are countries to which we attribute poor Human Rights records.

 

 

Finally an article on the Race aspect: http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-race

 

An image from that article:

 

[BlueJazzer]

Well I'm gOnna be unpopular then because I'm for it.

 

Ian huntley murders 2 kids and gets a cushy jail sentence with a tv in his cell and moans about his civil rights? Is that acceptable?

If u don't want to kill him then chain him to a wall for 23 hours a day.

[Ackey]

Well I'm gOnna be unpopular then because I'm for it.

 

Ian huntley murders 2 kids and gets a cushy jail sentence with a tv in his cell and moans about his civil rights? Is that acceptable?

If u don't want to kill him then chain him to a wall for 23 hours a day.

False dichotomy though - just because our criminal justice system isn't providing the answers we want doesn't mean we should kill people.

[leeslover]

Give us the true dicotomy then? I think it's terrible solution to again someone to a wall. What would you do? I'm not into revenge myself, i believe that wherever possible the criminal should repay the victim or their family, i just dont see the point of keeping them hanging around (unintended pun) forever at huge cost and no good to anyone.

[Ackey]

There doesn't need to be one Andy! This shouldn't be a "cushy hotel like cell" or "death" dichotomy.

 

It should be - like you say - a sliding scale based I agree about what's best for the victims and society as a whole.

 

The death penalty is as you say just a vicious and barbaric form of revenge and nothing more. It's not even cheaper as some would say, as the US shows.

[leeslover]

But i dont advocate using the death penalty in an angry mob fuelled rage. There's no need for the appeal process to go on forever - and how do you justify keeping someone in jail forever for them to die of old age after costing us millions? I dont see who really benefits if we are assuming that their prison time isnt enjoyable.

[Ackey]

But i dont advocate using the death penalty in an angry mob fuelled rage. There's no need for the appeal process to go on forever - and how do you justify keeping someone in jail forever for them to die of old age after costing us millions? I dont see who really benefits if we are assuming that their prison time isnt enjoyable.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know killing people isn't one of them - for me.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

But i dont advocate using the death penalty in an angry mob fuelled rage. There's no need for the appeal process to go on forever - and how do you justify keeping someone in jail forever for them to die of old age after costing us millions? I dont see who really benefits if we are assuming that their prison time isnt enjoyable.

 

What on earth does the cost have to do with anything? In this case, you decide what you want for other reasons, then worry about the cost later. It's been decided that we don't want the death penalty, so we pay for whole life tariffs and certain standards of humanity in our housing of prisoners.

 

In your world, it wouldn't be long before people started to chisel away at the executioner's pay and conditions.

[BlueJazzer]

how could ian huntley ever possibly even begin to repay the victims parents? To think that any sum of money or or community type service could make up for what he did is frankly ridiculous.

 

Im not saying that capital punishment is the answer. I don't really know what is. Let the victim choose the punishment? I reckon if jessica chapmans parents had been handed a shotgun in court huntley would be dead by now. And really would you blame them if that was the action they took?

 

As long as the government, (and that not a dig at the tories, i mean whoever is in power) allow brussells to poke their nose in our affairs, allow murderers the right to tv's and play stations when they should be being punished for their crimes, allow judges to pass weak sentences and parole prisoners for good behaviour......

 

Show me the alternative, because the system we have at the moment certainly doesn't work. The amount of youths being stabbed to death by other youths shows what a disregard for our justice system they have. Its my first offence, i'll be out in 3 or 4 years.

 

Convince me that its wrong, because all i've read in the thread so far isn't doing it.

Edited August 8, 2011 by BlueJazzer

[Ackey]

Show me the alternative

That's the right attitude. Why should we be satisfied with barbaric methods? Why should we legitimise his horrific actions by taking the same ones - killing someone.

 

It's just wrong.

 

 

[BlueJazzer]

That's the right attitude. Why should we be satisfied with barbaric methods? Why should we legitimise his horrific actions by taking the same ones - killing someone.

 

It's just wrong.

 

Like i said, convince me, but what i will say is if it was your daughter he had killed would you still be prepared to shake his hand and say 'never mind Ian, i know you have a troubled mind. I'll forgive you as long as you promise to spend the rest of your days watching tv and moaning that you can't get your favourite chocolate bars'.

 

I think its easy for people, including myself, to say 'oh well, its a damn shame' when its something we watch on the news. Thing is, if it were my daughter, i know i wouldn't rest till he was in the ground. Call it bravado, call it stupidity. It would probably drag me down to his level, and no doubt i'd be punished for it - hell, i might even have the murderers relations wanting to do the same to me?! But given the opportunity would i do it?

 

In a heartbeat.

[Ackey]

Like i said, convince me, but what i will say is if it was your daughter he had killed would you still be prepared to shake his hand and say 'never mind Ian, i know you have a troubled mind. I'll forgive you as long as you promise to spend the rest of your days watching tv and moaning that you can't get your favourite chocolate bars'.

 

I think its easy for people, including myself, to say 'oh well, its a damn shame' when its something we watch on the news. Thing is, if it were my daughter, i know i wouldn't rest till he was in the ground. Call it bravado, call it stupidity. It would probably drag me down to his level, and no doubt i'd be punished for it - hell, i might even have the murderers relations wanting to do the same to me?! But given the opportunity would i do it?

 

In a heartbeat.

I'm not going to go into specifics and it is most certainly not anything like as bad as what those poor, poor people had to go through.

 

However I have been through something which could be considered comparable, to a much lesser extent, and whilst I originally had to be physically restrained from taking an Ice Hockey stick to the :censored: head I did over time come to realise that would have been a regrettable action to take.

 

Would I happily shake that person's hand? :censored: no! But it doesn't mean they should be killed.

 

Like I say, there's a middle ground and I personally would never support a death penalty.

[Crusoe]

I think its easy for people, including myself, to say 'oh well, its a damn shame' when its something we watch on the news. Thing is, if it were my daughter, i know i wouldn't rest till he was in the ground. Call it bravado, call it stupidity. It would probably drag me down to his level, and no doubt i'd be punished for it - hell, i might even have the murderers relations wanting to do the same to me?! But given the opportunity would i do it?

I can understand the gut reaction. But you sound as though you know it's not a great idea at the same time. So would you want it to be legally condoned? Would you want everyone else to be able to do the same thing?

 

 

Sort of a rhetorical question. This is one of those subjects where opinion is pretty polarised and I doubt this thread will change minds.

[BlueJazzer]

I can understand the gut reaction. But you sound as though you know it's not a great idea at the same time. So would you want it to be legally condoned? Would you want everyone else to be able to do the same thing?

 

 

Sort of a rhetorical question. This is one of those subjects where opinion is pretty polarised and I doubt this thread will change minds.

 

 

I think everyone of us is capable of snapping and committing murder. The way i see it is the thing that separates normal people from psychopaths is we (yes, i'm putting myself in the normal camp!) know when to stop. Psycho's - not particularly pc but anyway - just don't. In a pressure situation however, like grieving the death of a murdered daughter, i reckon i might just overstep the mark, and live to regret it.

 

Heres a spin on it..... Lets say I, fro the sake of argument, shot my daughters killer live on tv as he was led into court. Would you expect there to be a public outcry and calls for my head or would I be held up as a talisman? Not sure how i would call that one, maybe the newspapers would be cautious about turning a Charles Bronson type into a hero but i expect public opinion - social networking sites for instance - would have me down as the second coming.....

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Like i said, convince me, but what i will say is if it was your daughter he had killed would you still be prepared to shake his hand and say 'never mind Ian, i know you have a troubled mind. I'll forgive you as long as you promise to spend the rest of your days watching tv and moaning that you can't get your favourite chocolate bars'.

 

I think its easy for people, including myself, to say 'oh well, its a damn shame' when its something we watch on the news. Thing is, if it were my daughter, i know i wouldn't rest till he was in the ground. Call it bravado, call it stupidity. It would probably drag me down to his level, and no doubt i'd be punished for it - hell, i might even have the murderers relations wanting to do the same to me?! But given the opportunity would i do it?

 

In a heartbeat.

 

It's just better if the victims of crime don't decide the punishment - for all of those reasons.

[Ackey]

I think everyone of us is capable of snapping and committing murder. The way i see it is the thing that separates normal people from psychopaths is we (yes, i'm putting myself in the normal camp!) know when to stop. Psycho's - not particularly pc but anyway - just don't. In a pressure situation however, like grieving the death of a murdered daughter, i reckon i might just overstep the mark, and live to regret it.

 

Heres a spin on it..... Lets say I, fro the sake of argument, shot my daughters killer live on tv as he was led into court. Would you expect there to be a public outcry and calls for my head or would I be held up as a talisman? Not sure how i would call that one, maybe the newspapers would be cautious about turning a Charles Bronson type into a hero but i expect public opinion - social networking sites for instance - would have me down as the second coming.....

But under your rules would you not, as a murder, be subject to the death penalty in your example?

 

Equally - and I'm not trying to be arsey about the use of the word or owt - how do you deal with psychos? I mean people with a genuine mental illness which has compelled them to do something they regret?

 

I don't have the patience to find it, but somewhere there is an article about a man in the US who is on death row despite being the mental age of seven (7!). How can you say that's just?

[Ackey]

I don't have the patience to find it

:censored: it, I went and got it:

 

 

http://www.reprieve.org.uk/blog/2009_01_25_supreme_court_upholds_death/

 

 

In a majority vote of 7-2 the US Supreme Court sitting in Washington last week upheld the death sentence handed down against Holly Wood - a man with the IQ of a seven-year-old child.

Wood was convicted of murdering his former girlfriend, Ruby Lois Gosha, by a court in Alabama in 1993. He was represented during his murder trial by three court-appointed attorneys, including one fresh out of law school and with no experience on a capital case. The fledgling lawyer took charge of the case at the sentencing phase after Wood had been found guilty and jurors were deciding if he would get life in jail or the death penalty.

 

The majority decision handed down on 20 January 2010 was written by Sonia Sotomayor, who was appointed by President Barack Obama. Sotomayor and six other judges concluded that Wood’s attorney has not erred in failing to tell a jury that his client had an IQ of between 59 and 64, despite the fact that this would indicate significant mental retardation.

 

The Supreme Court found that the attorney had deliberately chosen not to present a psychiatric report about Wood's mental profile for fear it would hurt him and went on to describe the decision as “strategic” and “not unreasonable”.

 

Justices Anthony Kennedy and John Paul Stevens dissenting described the decision to withhold the report as “the antithesis of a 'strategic' choice”. Justice Stevens proceeded to elucidate that:

 

"There is a world of difference between a decision not to introduce evidence at the guilt phase of a trial and a failure to investigate mitigating evidence that might be admissible at the penalty phase… the only reasonable factual conclusion I can draw from this record is that counsel’s decision to do so was the result of inattention and neglect."

 

In 2002 the Supreme Court barred the execution of those with an IQ under 70. However, because Wood’s appeal to dismiss his death sentence was grounded on the basis of his attorney's alleged incompetence, rather than his mental disability, his appeal was dismissed.

 

One might expand on the observations of Justice John Paul Stevens and conclude that upholding the death sentence against a man with a mental age of seven on such a technicality is indeed the antithesis of strategic choice, reason and most importantly justice.

 

 

[leeslover]

This is where it fails sometimes as an intelligent debate. The case in favour doesnt have to be all daily have mail. I can be as much of a tree hugger as the next man but there is a sensible intellectual case to be made for this. I was against it when i was an apprentice academic covering these areas but i've changed my mind since. What else is my question?