This Scottish referendum

[opinions4u]

Does this mean Rod Stewart has to piss off to where he never came from?

[Zorrro]

 

And how would he differentiate between Scottish nationals, and people born in Corby, Bedfordshire?

 

'Papers please'

 

Glory to Arstotzka!

[Guest Scratch2000uk]

 

And how would he differentiate between Scottish nationals, and people born in Corby, Bedfordshire?

 

'Papers please'

 

 

They'd be ginger and have big noses

 

 

 

.

[Matt]

 

Glory to Arstotzka!

 

FOREIGNER!

[leeslover]

Random thought for the morning... Where do you stand on Scottish workers should they vote yes? Should we deport them?

Never mind the workers, how about the ones on cider and heroin in our once pleasant Lancashire seaside?

[joe_lead]

You're obviously giving it serious thought though Stevie which is what has been so refreshing about this referendum.

 

I became a YES voter after a few months of personal research. I eventually came to realise that after years of distrust we had the potential to create a society and political system that reflected the make-up of the population. I looked back at what had happened over my lifetime, industries and communities destroyed, illegal wars, MPs expenses 'row', a banking crisis the solution to which was to create austerity for the working class so banks could be recapitalised and bankers maintain bonuses, seriously disabled people made to justify they are not able to work in order to receive support. I remembered how the right to demonstrate was made so difficult so the ruling class could not be threatened. We are ruled by those who understand that if you are silenced enough times you grow weary of defending your rights and accept that you are inferior. A compliant media has helped turn the working class against itself (divide and conquer): scroungers, immigrants, work shy, single mums, the list of stereotypes is endless. We have been left with a moral hierarchy where people with money are considered better than those on benefits. The result is an ever widening gap between the workers and those who we work for.

 

When I thought of social injustice and then which way I would vote I knew a NO vote would result in status quo and whilst a vote YES wouldn't guarantee a better society at least there would be an opportunity to change.

 

What's been good about the YES campaign is the growth from grassroots level, and its been done by talking, social media, public meetings to create a vision. Compare that with the NO campaign this week and the outrageous reporting by BBC. If you've read 1984 this week has been classic Doublethink whereby the BBC knew the truth but had continuously reported lies.

 

Scotland is a resource rich country, the untapped oil is vastly bigger than is being reported, believe me when I say that an oilfield far bigger than anything in the North Sea lies west of Lewis. But its not just oil, we have highly respected research capabilities in key fields, food and drink exports far greater than UK average per head. To think that Scotland with its wealth of resources cannot make it alone beggers belief. There are economic reasons why Cameron doesn't want to lose Scotland as well as reasons of embarrassment. No longer would we have the ludicrous situation of the Scottish Fisheries MInister not being allowed to discus Fishing in Brussels when have the biggest stocks of key species in the EU, we can argue for what's best for Scotland. We can do better if we go it alone.

 

 

For me The referendum is not about identity, it's not about economics it's about a once in a lifetime chance to create a fairer society for Scotland. Yes there will be difficulties ahead, yes it will be hard initially and I may have less money initially but know the longterm the benefits would be worth it for my kids.

[leeslover]

It's interesting that the debate has largely been based on an assumption that politics will go a certain way after independence rather than making the case for independence first then sort it out. Basically you can only vote yes if you agree with the SNP's policy agenda. It alienates people who support independence but would make a case for (just examples) working with r UK to retain the Trident facility or trying to make Scotland a Hong Kong style free trading business friendly growth area.

 

Fair play to Joe for accepting that there might be initial pain, I think it will be very hard to maintain enthusiasm for the project when their self-elected left wing government shows them what real austerity looks like.

[opinions4u]

The rules of the SNP used to state the party would be wound up if independence was achieved.

 

Is this still the case?

[leeslover]

The rules of the SNP used to state the party would be wound up if independence was achieved.

 

Is this still the case?

Interesting question, but they would have set all of the ground rules in terms of currency choice, debt and oil settlement, division of other assets. They would also presumably set planned budgets for the coming several years, so they will set the agenda for the first 5 or so crucial years. How much of it comes to pass remains to be seen.

[jimsleftfoot]

Independence would be from March 2016. Elections May 2016, negotiations completed by time of independence.

 

Scottish government to undertake negotiations but with input of other parties and other members of civic society.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

It's interesting that the debate has largely been based on an assumption that politics will go a certain way after independence rather than making the case for independence first then sort it out. Basically you can only vote yes if you agree with the SNP's policy agenda. It alienates people who support independence but would make a case for (just examples) working with r UK to retain the Trident facility or trying to make Scotland a Hong Kong style free trading business friendly growth area.

 

Fair play to Joe for accepting that there might be initial pain, I think it will be very hard to maintain enthusiasm for the project when their self-elected left wing government shows them what real austerity looks like.

The Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish are all considerably more left wing than the English. The Tories should've and could've seen that problem coming but chose not too. It's as if every policy decision they made for the past four and a half years was designed to alienate the Scots. Labour, which needs English votes, isn't a much better prospect if you're Scottish.

 

I honestly don't know that the Scots will be worse off financially. The divorce settlement is the key, and neither side has laid out a strategy for it.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

There is panic for sure, but I don't understand why you don't get that English electors aren't going to have legislators from what is going to be a foreign country votinrg on their :censored:

I take it all back. Senior Tories including John Redwood and Kenneth Baker are demanding action on the West Lothian question.

[leeslover]

I honestly don't know that the Scots will be worse off financially. The divorce settlement is the key, and neither side has laid out a strategy for it.

That's pretty straightforward. Roughly 50% of English people get their living from the government. In Scotland it's about 60%. That means that the ratio of net tax contributors to receivers is 1:1 in England and 1:1.5 in Scotland. Despite this Scotland receives 25% more per head for health and education. As M Hollande found out and Brown and Balls knew raising taxes will reduce income and they won't be able to continue the borrowing that is paying for an awful lot of current UK spending.

 

Obviously this is the sort of argument that the No campaign are deploying to try and scare them into staying, whereas it's precisely why I want them to leave.

Edited September 15, 2014 by leeslover

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Those are fundamental truths of the marriage, not the divorce.

 

The same is true in Northern Ireland. They're only loyal (as in Loyal) because it pays to be so. They're all for the Dublin Exchequer's approach to, for instance, air passenger duty, but they hate Dublin's approach to health care provision.

[leeslover]

Those are fundamental truths of the marriage, not the divorce.

 

The same is true in Northern Ireland. They're only loyal (as in Loyal) because it pays to be so. They're all for the Dublin Exchequer's approach to, for instance, air passenger duty, but they hate Dublin's approach to health care provision.

If you divorce a wealthy partner with no alimony and you have to cut your credit card up, your plans to work less and spend more won't work out too well.

 

Largely true about Northern Ireland. When my uncle would vote for union you know they can see where their bread is buttered.

[rudemedic]

I take it all back. Senior Tories including John Redwood and Kenneth Baker are demanding action on the West Lothian question.

I thought it was the Blackburn question?

Nah it is the West Lothian question but it is the West Lothian question as it refers to speech that referenced Blackburn, West Lothian.

Edited September 15, 2014 by rudemedic

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Bob Geldof, Eddie Izzard and Dan Snow (posho TV "historian") prominent at the Trafalgar Square NO! rally tonight. It's in the bag.

 

It'd be worth a yes vote just to see Cameron's face. Sadly I won't be there because I'm off on holiday. I have seen that face before though - during and after the Syria votes last year. Absolute disaster for the lad. Absolute gold for everyone else.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

This is quite interesting, if flawed. The data say not much would have been different had Scottish MPs not voted. The truth is massively otherwise.

 

https://www.mysociety.org/2014/09/10/parliament-without-scottish-mps-how-would-it-have-looked-different-since-1997/

Edited September 16, 2014 by 24hoursfromtulsehill

[leeslover]

This is quite interesting, if flawed. The data say not much would have been different had Scottish MPs not voted. The truth is massively otherwise.

 

https://www.mysociety.org/2014/09/10/parliament-without-scottish-mps-how-would-it-have-looked-different-since-1997/

Interesting that they have poor form in the civil liberties field. It will be argued that this was them following the, "Westminster," line but that doesn't get them off the hook for the Blair/Brown era.

[leeslover]

I see also that the pledge from Dave, Ed and Cleggy promises both Devon Max and continuing to send carts of gold North so that the Scottish government can spend more money on Scottish kids and sick people than English get. Way to build a backlash.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Interesting that they have poor form in the civil liberties field. It will be argued that this was them following the, "Westminster," line but that doesn't get them off the hook for the Blair/Brown era.

 

Off the hook for what? Most Governments, this one included, toe the line of the security services and the police when it comes to civil liberties, at the additional behest of the tabloid press. It's conventional wisdom to do so.

 

The bigger fact is that the Tories have one Scottish MP and the Lib Dems have 10. That's 11 out of 59. If you're Scottish, you've got to be looking at that thinking, "No one here voted for you, yet you are the Government." I think that's been true throughout the Thatcher, Major and Cameron eras. That's 20 years of recent history when Scotland has overwhelmingly rejected the party or parties that govern from Westminster. It includes the Tories choosing Scotland as the pilot area for the community charge, among other things. They've also got cause to believe that the Labour party (and their own Scottish Labour MPs) moved away from them during the Blair / Brown era, partly because of the need to win seats in places such as Peterborough and Thurrock.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I see also that the pledge from Dave, Ed and Cleggy promises both Devon Max and continuing to send carts of gold North so that the Scottish government can spend more money on Scottish kids and sick people than English get. Way to build a backlash.

 

Yes, the backlash is building momentum. Redwood and Baker are leading the charge. Surely it's only a matter of time before Lords Lamont, Lawson and Carrington get on the boat.

[leeslover]

 

Yes, the backlash is building momentum. Redwood and Baker are leading the charge. Surely it's only a matter of time before Lords Lamont, Lawson and Carrington get on the boat.

So long as you're sure it won't be a problem. Maybe we can just add the costs to the overseas aid fund.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

So long as you're sure it won't be a problem. Maybe we can just add the costs to the overseas aid fund.

 

There'll be an acrimonious divorce, but there's no saying Scotland won't do very, very well out of it, whatever the leading lights of Thatcherism would like or not like. It's probably not the time for people to be coming out saying "You can go but we'll make sure you're :censored:ing dirt poor when you do." That's for next week.

 

It depends on your understanding of the union. Some say Scotland has 25% rights to ALL UK assets. The SNP have argued for years that windfall taxes, for instance, should be split four ways, between England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, regardless of who pays the taxes. They also argue that Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England should each have a quarter of all UK MPs.

Edited September 16, 2014 by 24hoursfromtulsehill

[leeslover]

 

There'll be an acrimonious divorce, but there's no saying Scotland won't do very, very well out of it, whatever the leading lights of Thatcherism would like or not like. It's probably not the time for people to be coming out saying "You can go but we'll make sure you're :censored:ing dirt poor when you do." That's for next week.

 

It depends on your understanding of the union. Some say Scotland has 25% rights to ALL UK assets. The SNP have argued for years that windfall taxes, for instance, should be split four ways, between England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, regardless of who pays the taxes. They also argue that Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England should each have a quarter of all UK MPs.

Assets have nothing to do with it. They can't spend far more on themselves than England does with a far lower level of income unless we keep on sending them money.