LaticsPete Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I'm glad somebody can see it. There's one thing guaranteed to get you the same result every time, and that's doing the same thing every time. In fact, it's one definiton of madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie_Dugger Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Are you thinking what I'm thinking Pete? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Quite so. The memory of how Joe Royle took 5 seasons to get into the play offs in 1987 seems to be lost. He'd have been consigned to the scrap heap now. Different era, different kind of player, higher division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 But I'm not looking to achieve anything by trying to tell some of you what's in front of your noses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Are you thinking what I'm thinking Pete? I'm thinking that if Bertie Dugger's as confident as he makes out about eveything being rosy at the club, he'd have taken up that offer I made to him (several times) yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Are you thinking what I'm thinking Pete? Oh yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie_Dugger Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I'm thinking that if Bertie Dugger's as confident as he makes out about eveything being rosy at the club, he'd have taken up that offer I made to him (several times) yesterday. Must have missed that one. I have never said anything of the sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 So, Corp, are you suggesting that it would be perfectly reasonable to expect a new manager with practically an entire new squad to achieve promotion in their first year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Must have missed that one. I have never said anything of the sort. Course you haven't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) So, Corp, are you suggesting that it would be perfectly reasonable to expect a new manager with practically an entire new squad to achieve promotion in their first year? I think in some conditions it would be reasonable to expect..... Remember when Keegan was at Fullham... new owner...new manager...new players...alot of money spent... Was reasonable to expect them to go up... Edited August 12, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 So, Corp, are you suggesting that it would be perfectly reasonable to expect a new manager with practically an entire new squad to achieve promotion in their first year? After year upon year of cack and false hope, I'd expect success to be regarded as something better than mid-table (again...) People seem to think that a mid-table finish means that you somehow automatically 'kick-on' the following season. Well usually we don't. Do we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Whitehall Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Quite so. The memory of how Joe Royle took 5 seasons to get into the play offs in 1987 seems to be lost. He'd have been consigned to the scrap heap now. Nobody gets five years nowadays, it's a different era and times have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Nobody gets five years nowadays, it's a different era and times have changed. I fully agree with you there corp. It's the now! now! now! world we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 So that's a yes then. Ta very much. Of course I hope this team gels quickly, our concerns about firepower and defensive lapses are cast aside and Penney's team goes on to secure glorious promotion at the first time of asking. But I know enough about football not to expect that. One of the biggest diseases in today's game (and one of the biggest changes since the early Royle era) is the absolute demand from boards and fans alike for instant success beyond all reasonable expectation. It's also one of the key factors in our long term demise since 1994. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 So that's a yes then. Ta very much. Of course I hope this team gels quickly, our concerns about firepower and defensive lapses are cast aside and Penney's team goes on to secure glorious promotion at the first time of asking. But I know enough about football not to expect that. One of the biggest diseases in today's game (and one of the biggest changes since the early Royle era) is the absolute demand from boards and fans alike for instant success beyond all reasonable expectation. It's also one of the key factors in our long term demise since 1994. But expectiations are a weird thing... Going off what you say should we expect to stay up ? Should we expect anything ? You have to base everything of the situation... I expect us to hit mid table... I think that is a reasonable expectation for this season... I think to show progress we need to hit top 10/12 this term, top 6 next term...a real promotion challenge by the third term... That would be steady progress... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Whitehall Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 But expectiations are a weird thing... Going off what you say should we expect to stay up ? Should we expect anything ? You have to base everything of the situation... I expect us to hit mid table... I think that is a reasonable expectation for this season... I think to show progress we need to hit top 10/12 this term, top 6 next term...a real promotion challenge by the third term... That would be steady progress... I don't want steady progress - I want the League wrapped up by Christmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The worrying thing for me is the manager has all the pre season to sign players on a permanent basis in the positions most needed, an additional centre back, a creative midfielder and a goalpoacher, yet none have arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I fully agree with you there corp. It's the now! now! now! world we live in. That's our former ace striker Stevie Whitehall you're talking to there, not me. And he's right. Managers are seldom given five years these days, and nor are playing squads built over such long periods, due to the way the game has changed, especially at this level. Latcis fans can hardly be accused of a 'now, now, now,' mentality after patiently enduring fifteen years of decline. Can they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 So that's a yes then. Ta very much. Of course I hope this team gels quickly, our concerns about firepower and defensive lapses are cast aside and Penney's team goes on to secure glorious promotion at the first time of asking. But I know enough about football not to expect that. One of the biggest diseases in today's game (and one of the biggest changes since the early Royle era) is the absolute demand from boards and fans alike for instant success beyond all reasonable expectation. It's also one of the key factors in our long term demise since 1994. Do you live in a parallel universe? There has been no demand for 'instant success' at this club since 1994. The vast majority who still attend BP have patiently endured the mostly sub-standard fare served up with admirable patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 But expectiations are a weird thing... Going off what you say should we expect to stay up ? Should we expect anything ? You have to base everything of the situation... I expect us to hit mid table... I think that is a reasonable expectation for this season... I think to show progress we need to hit top 10/12 this term, top 6 next term...a real promotion challenge by the third term... That would be steady progress... There's a pattern developing regarding the way it works at this club. A new manager is appointed; he forms a new playing squad and (reasonably enough in the abstract) everybody appeals for him to be given time; a mid-table finish is regarded as success with tentative talk of the play-offs the following year; the following year the play-offs either fail to materialise or are scraped into after a season in which automatic could have been comfortably achieved and are approached in a half-hearted way; the manager departs, either during the close season or some time during the next one; the palying squad is ripped apart and a new one assembled; the cycle begins again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) Nobody gets five years nowadays, it's a different era and times have changed. Can't disagree. The point is that even talented, ultimately succesful managers , can need time to become that. And sometimes we need to remember that - even if the times are different it doesn't make them better. Edited August 12, 2009 by LaticsPete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 When TTA arrived they had a five year plan to consolidate in the Championship (i.e. go up and stay up). However, one of the unfortunate but eternal truths in football is that if you decide your manager isn't going to meet that five year plan and get rid, you end up starting all over again from year 1 with a new manager. So, we're back to year 1 again.... I was happy with the five year plan, as it was stated, though the last few years would suggest both poor selection in terms of managers and perhaps an over eagerness to start again. We are where we are. New manager, new squad. Frankly I'll be happy with consolidation in this league this season; play-offs would be a bonus, relegation a disaster. Year 2, I expect play-offs and a promotion challenge. Year 3, promotion if we didn't go up in year 2, avoid relegation if we did. I say that because the truth is a five year plan won't be allowed to complete; if we're not up by the end of Penney's third season, rightly or wrongly he'll be out. (And I suspect it'll take some strong leadership from the board in the face of unrest from some sections of fans to keep him for the third year if we don't go up next year... ) Corp is right that we never seem to have kicked on in the second season after a first of 'consolidation'. But if you look at our recent history, it's only really Sheridan that has been given the chance to do that - and his second year was hampered by a thin, injury hit squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Do you live in a parallel universe? To you, yes. There has been no demand for 'instant success' at this club since 1994. The vast majority who still attend BP have patiently endured the mostly sub-standard fare served up with admirable patience. So how come Ronnie was sacked then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Going off what you say should we expect to stay up ? Should we expect anything ? As also seems to be indicated by the enthusiasm on here for the small, lower division stadium we're being offered, a substantial section of the most committed Latics support no longer expects (or even wants?) anything much anymore, it seems. The simple continued existence of the club, at whatever low level, seems to be enough. Going off personal experience, a disturbing number of long-term Latics fans with a sense of expectation or ambition are rarely, if ever, seen at BP anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) So are all the doom and gloomers who come on here after every defeat in a parallel universe too? (Or is that just my wishful thinking...?) Edited August 12, 2009 by garcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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