mikejh45 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Show me. What's your explanation? Why would you want fewer police, fewer people in jail and lighter sentences if you wanted to tackle crime? http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...f/112/11205.htm I don't want less police. I don't want useless pcso's. I want tougher sentencing allied to a harsher prison regime in a society where the elderly should be treated better than prisoners. I want prisons to be a place where ex-cons are scared to go back to. I want police to be on the street and not filling out 18 sheets of crap because they have to cover their back. I want police to be able to tap a drunk on the head with a truncheon to 'smarten them up a bit'. I don't want an elderly couple who turned away a gay, militant couple to be visited by police and treated like hardened criminals for simply holding up their beliefs. In other words, it ain't a priority. I want to see police walking around Fitton Hill, Coldhurst, Glodwick and Limeside at midnight. I'll stop now....but there's more!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I don't want an elderly couple who turned away a gay, militant couple to be visited by police and treated like hardened criminals for simply holding up their beliefs. In other words, it ain't a priority. Just out of interest, which story are you referring to here? How was this couple militant and what did their militancy have to do with them being gay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Just out of interest, which story are you referring to here? How was this couple militant and what did their militancy have to do with them being gay? Why pick out this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Why pick out this point? I'm curious as to what the story you are referring to is. I don't know whether i've heard of it or not. FYI political correctness and forcing non discrimination (no matter how insane the bigotry) on individuals or private businesses are pet peeves of mine. Edited January 13, 2011 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm curious as to what the story you are referring to is. I don't know whether i've heard of it or not. FYI political correctness and forcing non discrimination (no matter how insane the bigotry) on individuals or private businesses are pet peeves of mine. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/2...oom?INTCMP=SRCH I read it in the Guardian a while ago (in the doctor's surgery waiting room) and it annoyed me somewhat. A gay couple who live next door to my ex felt some embarrassed at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/2...oom?INTCMP=SRCH I read it in the Guardian a while ago (in the doctor's surgery waiting room) and it annoyed me somewhat. A gay couple who live next door to my ex felt some embarrassed at the time. Ok 1) The B&B owners are quite bigotted, and the kind of people I would avoid at all costs 2) Having said that I fully support their right to admit or refuse to admit whoever they choose for whatever idiotic reason they choose (even if it had been a hotel) 3) But here's where I lose sympathy with them: She said to them that if they'd "told her in advance she would have told them not to come" This is ass backwards If there is a certain group of people that you disapprove of for no other reason than your quirky beliefs, and therefore you will refuse to serve them, then it is up you to make this apparant to ANYONE who hires your services in advance. You do not wait for a couple to travel 50 miles before turning them away. It is not for them to advertise to complete strangers (over the phone or via a website/email) about their sexual preferences (as if they are supposed to expect it to be relevant). On a side note, I still am confused as to why you referred to them as militant. Even if by "militant" you mean "outspoken" or "opinionated" and you are choosing your words poorly (just like many religionists love to do with atheists like Dawkins or Hitchens), I do not see anything to suggest this gay couple is any different from your average couple (except that they have their faces in the paper, which hardly qualifies) Edited January 13, 2011 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 If there is a certain group of people that you disapprove of for no other reason than your quirky beliefs, and therefore you will refuse to serve them, then it is up you to make this apparant to ANYONE who hires your services in advance. Yeah - by, for instance, putting up a sign in the window saying, "No dogs, no Irish, no Blacks. And definitely no MILITANT GAYS". Are they normally peaceable urban gays who wanted to spend a weekend in the countryside causing trouble, or were they seeking quiet time away from urban-based gay militancy? I read that crime stuff from the not-often-cited Home Affairs Committee. The best thing in your favour is the TARN figures, which show a significant increase in knife injuries as a proportion of all serious injuries, meaning that the explanation could be a decline in other types of injury as a proportion of all serious injuries. Big deal, but nice try. Did I hear that the Tories announced today that they're closing three massive prisons? How's that going to help to beat the gay militants and their filthy knife-toting ilk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Yeah - by, for instance, putting up a sign in the window saying, "No dogs, no Irish, no Blacks. And definitely no MILITANT GAYS". Are they normally peaceable urban gays who wanted to spend a weekend in the countryside causing trouble, or were they seeking quiet time away from urban-based gay militancy? I read that crime stuff from the not-often-cited Home Affairs Committee. The best thing in your favour is the TARN figures, which show a significant increase in knife injuries as a proportion of all serious injuries, meaning that the explanation could be a decline in other types of injury as a proportion of all serious injuries. Big deal, but nice try. Did I hear that the Tories announced today that they're closing three massive prisons? How's that going to help to beat the gay militants and their filthy knife-toting ilk? That was cuddly Uncle Ken Clark (the Tories equivalent of Father Jack)........not sure whether he'll get this one past Cameron. Bluddy hell, I hope not...........after the f--k up at Ford Open prison, there's an argument for more prisons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ok 1) The B&B owners are quite bigotted, and the kind of people I would avoid at all costs 2) Having said that I fully support their right to admit or refuse to admit whoever they choose for whatever idiotic reason they choose (even if it had been a hotel) 3) But here's where I lose sympathy with them: She said to them that if they'd "told her in advance she would have told them not to come" This is ass backwards If there is a certain group of people that you disapprove of for no other reason than your quirky beliefs, and therefore you will refuse to serve them, then it is up you to make this apparant to ANYONE who hires your services in advance. You do not wait for a couple to travel 50 miles before turning them away. It is not for them to advertise to complete strangers (over the phone or via a website/email) about their sexual preferences (as if they are supposed to expect it to be relevant). On a side note, I still am confused as to why you referred to them as militant. Even if by "militant" you mean "outspoken" or "opinionated" and you are choosing your words poorly (just like many religionists love to do with atheists like Dawkins or Hitchens), I do not see anything to suggest this gay couple is any different from your average couple (except that they have their faces in the paper, which hardly qualifies) How does one legally tell a gay couple in advance that you won't give them a room.......not sure how you get round that one? The "militant" comment was about the alledged bombarding of their phone which will have taken place before the newspapers got hold of the story, if it actually happened. Also, if you were visiting friends, wouldn't you ask where to stay.............or would you just take a chance? I'll take a not so wild guess and go for the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ask friends whether there are any homophobic guest house owners? And if so, what's the number so I can book a room in which to cause gay trouble? Flippin' 'eck. The owners were in the wrong, not the militant gays. They don't have to run a B&B. Just like racists don't have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ask friends whether there are any homophobic guest house owners? And if so, what's the number so I can book a room in which to cause gay trouble? Flippin' 'eck. The owners were in the wrong, not the militant gays. They don't have to run a B&B. Just like racists don't have to. Come on........you ask friends where to stay....end of!!! You want to know that you are staying in some place clean and not liable to be a home for fleas. Or do you NEVER ask friends and just take a chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Come on........you ask friends where to stay....end of!!! You want to know that you are staying in some place clean and not liable to be a home for fleas. Or do you NEVER ask friends and just take a chance? The missus won't stay anywhere unless it's on the Alistair Sawday website. Unfortunately the pubs and B&Bs and so on are not rated on tolerance of the norm or ability to cope with things the owners don't like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The missus won't stay anywhere unless it's on the Alistair Sawday website. Unfortunately the pubs and B&Bs and so on are not rated on tolerance of the norm or ability to cope with things the owners don't like. Again I ask (but in a different way).....you have friends in Auchtermuchty (for example) and you want to stay over and there isn't anything on the Alistair Sawday website.....do you take a chance or ask your friends? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Take a chance? The chance of any of my friends having been to Auchter...whatever, are extremely slim, therefore it would be a waste of my time and theirs. Do you think black people who fancy a weekend away ask their friends whether the owners of an establishment that takes their fancy might be racist? The gay militants had a right to expect a bed. The supposedly uber Christians have a right to move somewhere less tolerant of homosexuality, such as Mogadishu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Take a chance? The chance of any of my friends having been to Auchter...whatever, are extremely slim, therefore it would be a waste of my time and theirs. Do you think black people who fancy a weekend away ask their friends whether the owners of an establishment that takes their fancy might be racist? You are being deliberately obtuse here......the question you would ask of a friend is whether they know of somewhere to stay where they can be made welcome and comfortable. Who the hell has ever asked a friend to recommend a place that would deliberately exclude them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 You are being deliberately obtuse here......the question you would ask of a friend is whether they know of somewhere to stay where they can be made welcome and comfortable. Who the hell has ever asked a friend to recommend a place that would deliberately exclude them? Yeah but... Look: if you're gay and so is your boyfriend, why can't you just expect to be able to stay wherever you like, and expect the proprietors to keep their opinions about your life choices to themselves, just like me and the girlfriend can? I can't believe your sticking up for attitudes that belong in a bygone, cruel and mean age. Makes my blood boil. Makes me weep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The gay militants had a right to expect a bed. The supposedly uber Christians have a right to move somewhere less tolerant of homosexuality, such as Mogadishu. You are half right, which I think can only be lauded as tremendous progress. The gay couple (I think you got confused who you were attacking over the, "militancy," by the way) did have a right to expect a bed. They had concluded a legal contract to that effect. The law is wrong in that it makes it impossible for the hoteliers to advertise in advance that they have religious beliefs that make it uncomfortable for them to have guests who will be having a same-sex clinch. One can for example advertise a preference for sexuality when advertising for a flatmate, B & B guests are essentially making you a short term guest in their house. From experience I doubt that many B & B owners or staff would feel the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You are half right, which I think can only be lauded as tremendous progress. The gay couple (I think you got confused who you were attacking over the, "militancy," by the way) did have a right to expect a bed. They had concluded a legal contract to that effect. The law is wrong in that it makes it impossible for the hoteliers to advertise in advance that they have religious beliefs that make it uncomfortable for them to have guests who will be having a same-sex clinch. One can for example advertise a preference for sexuality when advertising for a flatmate, B & B guests are essentially making you a short term guest in their house. From experience I doubt that many B & B owners or staff would feel the same way. You're right. They should be allowed by right the opportunity of putting up a sign saying, "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish and NO GAYS!" Society would be the better for it, clearly. Things were really great for minorities when upstanding hoteliers could single them out like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) How does one legally tell a gay couple in advance that you won't give them a room.......not sure how you get round that one? Is it any less legal than telling them on the day they arrive after they have driven 50 miles? However, I'm saying that you would tell everyone in advance, either on the internet booking form or over the phone. Much like you would surely have to tell everyone in advance if your religion forbids you to allow mobile phones on the premises. It is not for a guest to psychically predict weird things that the owners might be prejudice against and then declare that he/she is going to be falling foul of those prejudices. For the owners to wait till they get there to tell them is a dick move to say the least. The "militant" comment was about the alledged bombarding of their phone which will have taken place before the newspapers got hold of the story, if it actually happened. Well that's stalker like behaviour for sure. But that wouldn't make them a militant anything, let alone a gay militant (as if the term makes any sense). Plus, to say that the owners turned away gay militants is a bit of an overstatement when the behaviour you are crediting as being militant had yet to take place and therefore could not have factored in their decision. I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on you, but I do see that word thrown about far to easily to describe persons or groups of people who don't remotely fit the description (eg Atheists or gays). I guess its just one of those daft things that makes my blood boil. Then on the other side of the coin, quite ironically, you have religiously motivated Conservative Politicians and Media People in the USA making highly militant speaches in an effort to motivate people towards their agenda. Then when someone is killed they claim that it was all meant as metaphors and they are really just fluffy little bunnies who wouldn't want to hurt a fly. Also, if you were visiting friends, wouldn't you ask where to stay.............or would you just take a chance? I'll take a not so wild guess and go for the former. Not sure what this has to do with anything i've said. It's not as if your friends are certain to know that the B&B doesn't like a bit of sticky male bonding. Edited January 14, 2011 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You're right. They should be allowed by right the opportunity of putting up a sign saying, "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish and NO GAYS!" Society would be the better for it, clearly. Things were really great for minorities when upstanding hoteliers could single them out like that. The world, and certainly the UK, is a big enough place to survive the odd oddball landlord who think a couple of people who might want to get jiggy in a way that is prohibited in Leviticus don't have the wit to push a couple of single beds together. Stop being such a bloody drama queen. A couple of Puritans in some backwater does not herald a return to 1950's race hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You're right. They should be allowed by right the opportunity of putting up a sign saying, "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish and NO GAYS!" Society would be the better for it, clearly. Things were really great for minorities when upstanding hoteliers could single them out like that. I sense you a being sarcastic, and yet what you have written is quite close to the truth as I see it. If the owners have problem with a certain minority, then they can make sure that anyone who could potentially be that minority is aware of it when booking. If they don't, then they'd better have a f-ing good reason for turning them away later on. This only enables clarity of the situation. It enables minorities to know where not stay (and who would want to stay at a place where the owner disapproves of you) and enables people like you or I who do not fit into any such minority group (but nonetheless hate bigotry against those who do) to know which places to avoid. Everyone's a winner. The private business owners are not having their rights trampled on, and the rest of us have more information to help us choose who to give our money to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Those couple of puritans should move to somewhere more puritanical, like Kabul. Phil: what about black people? Should you be able to put a sign up saying no black people? I think some of yous just don't realise that social legislation stops people being mean and insulting to people, which is a good thing. The problem for the puritans is that they lost. They should suck it up and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I sense you a being sarcastic, and yet what you have written is quite close to the truth as I see it. If the owners have problem with a certain minority, then they can make sure that anyone who could potentially be that minority is aware of it when booking. If they don't, then they'd better have a f-ing good reason for turning them away later on. This only enables clarity of the situation. It enables minorities to know where not stay (and who would want to stay at a place where the owner disapproves of you) and enables people like you or I who do not fit into any such minority group (but nonetheless hate bigotry against those who do) to know which places to avoid. Everyone's a winner. The private business owners are not having their rights trampled on, and the rest of us have more information to help us choose who to give our money to. Indeed, although I disagree with you in some other matters, I think you spell out my own views very clearly here. It would actually be the sign of a brave liberal society to stop feeling the need to stop everyone being nasty by law. For God's sake, we all live/work/shop/travel with people who are different in every single way, and by and large, although not so easily in a minority of places in the country, we just get on with it. I nearly booked myself into a lezzie only place when I was booking at short notice on a trip to York last year. WHOOPS! Sorry, must read more carefully next time. No offence taken. If I was booking into a place with a lass where the owners required us to be married, I would find it an inconvenience, but would respect it. If they said no Irish, I would stay there and leave some horrific memory of my presence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Phil: what about black people? Should you be able to put a sign up saying no black people? Yes! If they want. It doesn't matter what group of people or what individiuals you want to pick. My stance is consistent. But remember, I am only talking about preventing people booking in advance a service and then finding out on the day that the business owner won't serve them for whatever bull:censored: subjective reason. Putting a sign outside your business address isn't really needed for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Yes! If they want. It doesn't matter what group of people or what individiuals you want to pick. My stance is consistent. But remember, I am only talking about preventing people booking in advance a service and then finding out on the day that the business owner won't serve them for whatever bull:censored: subjective reason. Putting a sign outside your business address isn't really needed for that. Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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