Student Demo in London Against Tuition Fees Increase

[latic12345]

I totally agree with Hallam Man. The more vocational a course, the more likely it is to produce graduates with specific professional skills.

 

I don't disagree with this either. However, back in the day that vocational courses were joinery, electricians etc, these were done as an apprentice, not by going to University. My point is that going to University to study golf studies is a little bit silly. My point before about innovation is really clear here. If the golf industry, for example, wants to have an academic sheen then the major players and businesses within it can partner with universities and perhaps help along the way. Universities that offer such courses do not need to pass the funding gap on to students (the reason for increased fees) they can innovate and partner with the industries with which they wish to serve. It is an old and archaic view that the funding for teaching in universities needs to come from either Government or students.

[Stitch_KTF]

I wish university fees had been "up to £9000 a year" back when I went, as I wouldn't have bothered.

 

That said, they wouldn't have been as it's government money gifted to non-worthwhile students (under some sort ill conceived, do-gooder, everybody deserves to be middle-class banner), which is exactly what bids prices up in the first place.

 

Free/heavily subsidised tuition benefits universites first and foremost (which is what allows them to become bloated and inefficient). Removing their guaranteed custom puts the onus on them to provide a good value service.

 

P.S Sure, it's a :censored:ter for those who perhaps would make a good fist of a university education but simply can't, or don't dare, afford it. But they're relatively few and far between. Government policies have to be tailored toward the majority - it's their job to look after society not individuals.

 

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I don't disagree with this either. However, back in the day that vocational courses were joinery, electricians etc, these were done as an apprentice, not by going to University. My point is that going to University to study golf studies is a little bit silly. My point before about innovation is really clear here. If the golf industry, for example, wants to have an academic sheen then the major players and businesses within it can partner with universities and perhaps help along the way. Universities that offer such courses do not need to pass the funding gap on to students (the reason for increased fees) they can innovate and partner with the industries with which they wish to serve. It is an old and archaic view that the funding for teaching in universities needs to come from either Government or students.

 

Totally agree. You shouldn't go for golf studies just because it's the last turkey in the shop in clearing and the nightlife in wherever is good. You should study it because it will help you professionally with your profession as a golf swing doctor, an equipment designer, a greenkeeper or a golf-related business person.

 

I wish university fees had been "up to £9000 a year" back when I went, as I wouldn't have bothered.

 

That said, they wouldn't have been as it's government money gifted to non-worthwhile students (under some sort ill conceived, do-gooder, everybody deserves to be middle-class banner), which is exactly what bids prices up in the first place.

 

Free/heavily subsidised tuition benefits universites first and foremost (which is what allows them to become bloated and inefficient). Removing their guaranteed custom puts the onus on them to provide a good value service.

 

P.S Sure, it's a :censored:ter for those who perhaps would make a good fist of a university education but simply can't, or don't dare, afford it. But they're relatively few and far between. Government policies have to be tailored toward the majority - it's their job to look after society not individuals.

 

You're experience of uni sounds like mine. No way was it worth £9,000 a year. It wasn't worth half that. Or any of that. The only good university experience I had was as a postgrad at Birkbeck - where you pay for the course yourself and you work while you study. The universities have a lot to answer for (for instance, where does the money go?), but all they do is moan and hark back to the good old days when they got given money no questions asked.

 

[Ackey]

One thing I would say that the American system has over the UK system is that their first year is a year in which they can take a host of courses before they specialise. I did more growing up in my first year at Uni than I did in the rest of my teens and early 20's combined. Having that option here might be benefitial to students who don't know what to do with their lives - offer them an 'out' into a vocational course if that's required.

[Roger Ritchie]

Time for the Lib Dems to show some backbone. Wasn't this one of their promises?

 

Reminds me of Paris.

[beag_teeets]

One thing I would say that the American system has over the UK system is that their first year is a year in which they can take a host of courses before they specialise. I did more growing up in my first year at Uni than I did in the rest of my teens and early 20's combined. Having that option here might be benefitial to students who don't know what to do with their lives - offer them an 'out' into a vocational course if that's required.

 

 

Another thing to note about the US system is that whilst the individual student can be charged a hell of a lot more than the £9000 currently mooted, the US government pays more towards the student than our government currently does.

[Stitch_KTF]

Another thing to note about the US system is that whilst the individual student can be charged a hell of a lot more than the £9000 currently mooted, the US government pays more towards the student than our government currently does.

 

Good for the university!

[beag_teeets]

Good for the university!

 

Which is one way of looking at it.

 

Another way would be to see it as modelling our higher education system on the US one as a means of reducing governmental contributions is flawed logic.

 

Just throwing this out there too, a certain University not to far from our football club is trying to get into the top 25 ranked universities in the world. The majority of the top ranked universities is currently American who receive far more funding than ours do. I wonder if there is a direct correlation here?

 

[OldhamSheridan]

I think we've missed the big point in all this conversation.

 

One of them managed to get interviewed on the News at 6 with ':censored: OFF' written across his face.

[beag_teeets]

My wife saw that and said that he had rubbed the K off but it was still visible.

 

Now, if I was going to appear on the popular teatime news show and wished to be less offensive I would have rubbed the F out as the presence of the C still makes the word offensive whereas UCK never hurt not no one.

[oafc0000]

I find it hard to accept the majority of student at Uni today are on nothing courses... Granted there will be a minority and that minority is probably a big number when you count it...and its not ok and needs changing... but I think there are some myths developing here just like the myths surrounding benefit claimants and such like.

 

One thing I do find shocking though is just how many people say Uni did nothing for them etc. And this comes out of people I speak to who went to red brick Unis doing "proper" courses etc... Uni change me in so many ways and is the single most valuable thing I ever done (not counting the conception of my baby girl of course ) Its hard to relate when it made you who you are today...

[garcon]

One of them managed to get interviewed on the News at 6 with ':censored: OFF' written across his face.

Brilliant!

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I find it hard to accept the majority of student at Uni today are on nothing courses... Granted there will be a minority and that minority is probably a big number when you count it...and its not ok and needs changing... but I think there are some myths developing here just like the myths surrounding benefit claimants and such like.

 

One thing I do find shocking though is just how many people say Uni did nothing for them etc. And this comes out of people I speak to who went to red brick Unis doing "proper" courses etc... Uni change me in so many ways and is the single most valuable thing I ever done (not counting the conception of my baby girl of course ) Its hard to relate when it made you who you are today...

 

It did not much for me. Not £9,000 a year worth - no way, no day. If I were paying £9,000 a year, I would demand lecturers who could play more than one tune, seminars at the appointed time with the appointed tutor, more than 5 hours' tuition a week, the odd computer around the campus, better accommodation (I'd have been better off in Walton than in halls). I'd want a little bit more employer engagement - I'd want my uni out there finding work placements and organising an exchange and so on. Maybe that happens now, but it didn't then. I hope you get that for your £9,000 these days - at the very least.

 

I got introduced the Kant and Nietzsche and Plato and various historical topics that I wouldn't otherwise have bothered with and a different look at various aspects of politics. To be fair though, to the university and me, it needn't have taken three years. Two years, full time all the time (minimal holidays) would have been just fine. If I were really on my game, I might venture that I could have got what I got in one and a half.

[oafc0000]

I was thinking today is the VERY "thin blue line" the police offers was done on purpose as a warning to Cameron about police cuts...

 

Thatcher gave the police a very hansom pay deal in the 80's to get the police onside as her own private army. Cameron is doing quite the opposite with the cuts being implemented.

 

Can't help but feel someone was shooting someone a warning...

[oafc0000]

It did not much for me. Not £9,000 a year worth - no way, no day. If I were paying £9,000 a year, I would demand lecturers who could play more than one tune, seminars at the appointed time with the appointed tutor, more than 5 hours' tuition a week, the odd computer around the campus, better accommodation (I'd have been better off in Walton than in halls). I'd want a little bit more employer engagement - I'd want my uni out there finding work placements and organising an exchange and so on. Maybe that happens now, but it didn't then. I hope you get that for your £9,000 these days - at the very least.

 

I got introduced the Kant and Nietzsche and Plato and various historical topics that I wouldn't otherwise have bothered with and a different look at various aspects of politics. To be fair though, to the university and me, it needn't have taken three years. Two years, full time all the time (minimal holidays) would have been just fine. If I were really on my game, I might venture that I could have got what I got in one and a half.

 

I wasn't talking from a £9k a year prospective though...

 

But I would still say it was worth it myself...

[rudemedic]

I was thinking today is the VERY "thin blue line" the police offers was done on purpose as a warning to Cameron about police cuts...

 

Thatcher gave the police a very hansom pay deal in the 80's to get the police onside as her own private army. Cameron is doing quite the opposite with the cuts being implemented.

 

Can't help but feel someone was shooting someone a warning...

 

Having heard from someone who was there (today), they had 4 cops (none of whom were in riot gear) outside Tory headquarters, and it took the cops a while to get people in riot gear there. The cops were told to expect 20,000 students but said that NUS couldn't muster that many and so were very underprepared for the 50,000 that turned up. (Considering a % of the students that were there, were 6th formers this is a bit poor). Apparently for the 50,000 people (49800 of whom were peaceful) the cops had under 300 cops there (I've seen more than that at football games with Oldham).

 

Incidentally, it cost my mate a fiver to get there and back on a coach, not exactly a rip off or outside budget (I would have paid more than that for 2 pints watching the Derby).

 

[garcon]

I was thinking today is the VERY "thin blue line" the police offers was done on purpose as a warning to Cameron about police cuts...

 

Thatcher gave the police a very hansom pay deal in the 80's to get the police onside as her own private army. Cameron is doing quite the opposite with the cuts being implemented.

 

Can't help but feel someone was shooting someone a warning...

I suspect it was merely a case of not having any intel to the effect that things might get testy.

 

The coalition would have to go an awful long way to upset the police as much as Liebour (and Jaqui Smith in particular) did. Announcing cuts is one thing, reneging on agreed pay rises is something entirely different.

[oafc0000]

I suspect it was merely a case of not having any intel to the effect that things might get testy.

 

The coalition would have to go an awful long way to upset the police as much as Liebour (and Jaqui Smith in particular) did. Announcing cuts is one thing, reneging on agreed pay rises is something entirely different.

 

Stop making everything a labour vs tory kick off

[garcon]

You started it!

 

Besides, I know enough coppers to know it is fact. It will be a very long time before they forgive Labour for stealing their pay rise.

[oafc0000]

You started it!

 

Besides, I know enough coppers to know it is fact. It will be a very long time before they forgive Labour for stealing their pay rise.

 

Ah stuff the coppers... Over paid bullies... I would just replace them with a web service... Drop down to select crime, enter address and it gives you a crime number... Easier than the current system

[jimsleftfoot]

The fact Huddersfield has a university shows there is room for cuts ;)

 

This amazes me.

 

The students can afford to attend the protest.

The lecturers will be next in line to demand pay rises and boycot exams to the detriment of the education they are today trying to protect.

 

It amazes me the reaction to this somehow. Universities are allowed to increase tuition fees. They are not mandated to. Yet university staff are protesting against it. If they don't like it, don't do it. Innovate, partner with business, improve your research, stop offering tinpot degrees at tinpot universities and encourage people to get the right training in a job they can be prosperous in. I'm sorry but a degree in Media Studies from the University of Bolton is worthless. It's not worth £27k. Hopefully the good thing that will come of this is that these degrees will die....

 

Sorry. I went off a bit there.

 

My final solution is to take the cost of the damage, divide it by the number of students and add it to the cap for every single one of them...

 

Its not that the government are allowing Tuition Fee Increases, its that they will be cutting the Teaching Grant by about 80% to Unis and then they have to make it up through the Tuition Fee.

[jimsleftfoot]

It did not much for me. Not £9,000 a year worth - no way, no day. If I were paying £9,000 a year, I would demand lecturers who could play more than one tune, seminars at the appointed time with the appointed tutor, more than 5 hours' tuition a week, the odd computer around the campus, better accommodation (I'd have been better off in Walton than in halls). I'd want a little bit more employer engagement - I'd want my uni out there finding work placements and organising an exchange and so on. Maybe that happens now, but it didn't then. I hope you get that for your £9,000 these days - at the very least.

 

I got introduced the Kant and Nietzsche and Plato and various historical topics that I wouldn't otherwise have bothered with and a different look at various aspects of politics. To be fair though, to the university and me, it needn't have taken three years. Two years, full time all the time (minimal holidays) would have been just fine. If I were really on my game, I might venture that I could have got what I got in one and a half.

 

I work at a Uni and on the whole the game has improved somewhat since when I left in 2002. Most Universities have spent a lot of money on capital building programmes investing in new buildings, facilities, accomodation, computers and IT services, and employability. Classroom hours haven't gone up too much but then degrees are supposed to be about self learning, especially if you do an arts subject.

[latic12345]

Its not that the government are allowing Tuition Fee Increases, its that they will be cutting the Teaching Grant by about 80% to Unis and then they have to make it up through the Tuition Fee.

 

My broader point further down the thread is that this is completely unnecessary. They dont have to make it up through tuition fees, they choose to. They could be more innovative. They choose to take the easy

[beag_teeets]

Cameron has learnt nothing from Thatcher. She gave the instruments of state oppression juicy fat payrises before taking on her "undesirables", the Met let this happen as they too will face Dave's cuts. It was only when the bad PR started to counteract the trashing of Milbank did they step in.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I work at a Uni and on the whole the game has improved somewhat since when I left in 2002. Most Universities have spent a lot of money on capital building programmes investing in new buildings, facilities, accomodation, computers and IT services, and employability. Classroom hours haven't gone up too much but then degrees are supposed to be about self learning, especially if you do an arts subject.

 

Glad to hear it.

 

I honestly think people should self-learn the arts in their spare time. Even if you go to a good university, it's still sort of a waste of time. A friend of mine's brother has just started at UCL. His course is called European studies, but it's European politics and philosophy in all but name. You have to learn a language to go with it and you're advised to go work in the European Parliament for some of the time, which counts as research time. That's way better than writing essays about Beyond Good and Evil. Maybe the dusty old clowns are developing their offering after all.

 

Spotted on the march: a placard reading, "Lib Dems put the N in CUTS".

 

Not bad for a stoodent.