PITCH ENCROACHMENT AND DAMAGE- Part 2

[Barryowen]

I have started a new thread because the main topic now contain many diverse topics.

 

I have little doubt that I will be rebuked for rising to the bait but at times I really do need to come back at some posters to put matters into context.

 

I notice from the thread a number of comments from Prozac and let me say from the outset that my replies are not meant to be personal. Indeed without partronising him I have to say that I admire his forthright and intelligent arguments. I respect his views although on many occasion they conflict with mine.

 

I am partuclarly interested Prozac in your comments that "club officals" have encouraged you in the past to have a more hands on approach. I am interested to learn more from you because as you know you have been invited on numerous occasions to be a part of the Trust and/or Playershare. As with others, this invitation has been extended to any form of help that can be given without individuals commiting to a formal position on these bodies.

 

It is very easy for people to say that will not work with the organisation because the, "do not agree with the model". In that case why not join to change or influence change.

 

Whilst inflating ones own importance it is far too easy to criticise the Trust and its workers. They do a fine job and in the past ten years they have done more than do a odd couple of "do's".

 

In their period of existence the Trust has been responsible for "aiding" the club with finance in excess of £100.000. The seat on the Board has allowed us to have an indepth working knowledge of football and who knows when that knowledge may be called upon.

 

Rather than people crticise, any of you join us and help the cause.

 

The question of Playershare was my idea and I submitted a report to the Trust some 8 years ago to form such an organisation. Over a period of time it became obvious that the scheme was too insular and needed greater representation from fans who were willing to give some time to this kind of work. Believe me I was delighted for this to occur and I am both proud of the scheme and those who work with us.

 

In respect of my own role I have offered on numerous occasions to meet fans, attend meetings and address anyone who want to know of the working of the Trust or my position as a Director. People like to talk but never attend the meetings.

 

Whilst due publcity has not been given yet, in the near future the constitution regarding membership of the Trust is to change. Membership will become open to fans who register their membership via e mail and only donations will be sought. Voting rights will not rely on payment.

 

I am hopeful that this will encourage a wider membership and a greater willingness to work with the Trust. Yes, the Trust can be cricitised for many things and has learnt along the way but I would merely point out that its Directors and helpers are voulnteeers and do not get paid for their work.

 

I would also like to add that the whole perception of the Trust differs from one fan to another. In a technical sense we are what it says on the label. We are Trustees who main task should be to overlook the interests of the club. It is not really within their remit to take over the responsiblities of the "Supporters Association" who should be fullfuling tasks in ther own role whilst raising money. By default these tasks have fallen on the Trust.

 

I hope this help to clarfiy a few points.

 

Before finishing I would also like to point out that at no stage duting my tenure as a Director have I receive money for any work I have done even when helping to fill the gap after Alan Hardy left.

 

Those who fancy a crack at the job, become a Trust Director and stake your claim against the rest. Just one warning , make sure you have enough time to do the job properly.

 

Regards

 

Barry

[Lee Sinnott]

 

Those who fancy a crack at the job, become a Trust Director and stake your claim against the rest. Just one warning , make sure you have enough time to do the job properly.

 

Regards

 

Barry

 

But, Barry, if they did that, then they wouldn't be able to sit at their laptops all day slagging the club off on here...

[Matt]

I think a better thread title would have been "Barry Owen: I did it my way"

[oafcprozac]

I have started a new thread because the main topic now contain many diverse topics.

 

I have little doubt that I will be rebuked for rising to the bait but at times I really do need to come back at some posters to put matters into context.

 

I notice from the thread a number of comments from Prozac and let me say from the outset that my replies are not meant to be personal. Indeed without partronising him I have to say that I admire his forthright and intelligent arguments. I respect his views although on many occasion they conflict with mine.

 

I am partuclarly interested Prozac in your comments that "club officals" have encouraged you in the past to have a more hands on approach. I am interested to learn more from you because as you know you have been invited on numerous occasions to be a part of the Trust and/or Playershare. As with others, this invitation has been extended to any form of help that can be given without individuals commiting to a formal position on these bodies.

 

It is very easy for people to say that will not work with the organisation because the, "do not agree with the model". In that case why not join to change or influence change.

 

Whilst inflating ones own importance it is far too easy to criticise the Trust and its workers. They do a fine job and in the past ten years they have done more than do a odd couple of "do's".

 

In their period of existence the Trust has been responsible for "aiding" the club with finance in excess of £100.000. The seat on the Board has allowed us to have an indepth working knowledge of football and who knows when that knowledge may be called upon.

 

Rather than people crticise, any of you join us and help the cause.

 

The question of Playershare was my idea and I submitted a report to the Trust some 8 years ago to form such an organisation. Over a period of time it became obvious that the scheme was too insular and needed greater representation from fans who were willing to give some time to this kind of work. Believe me I was delighted for this to occur and I am both proud of the scheme and those who work with us.

 

In respect of my own role I have offered on numerous occasions to meet fans, attend meetings and address anyone who want to know of the working of the Trust or my position as a Director. People like to talk but never attend the meetings.

 

Whilst due publcity has not been given yet, in the near future the constitution regarding membership of the Trust is to change. Membership will become open to fans who register their membership via e mail and only donations will be sought. Voting rights will not rely on payment.

 

I am hopeful that this will encourage a wider membership and a greater willingness to work with the Trust. Yes, the Trust can be cricitised for many things and has learnt along the way but I would merely point out that its Directors and helpers are voulnteeers and do not get paid for their work.

 

I would also like to add that the whole perception of the Trust differs from one fan to another. In a technical sense we are what it says on the label. We are Trustees who main task should be to overlook the interests of the club. It is not really within their remit to take over the responsiblities of the "Supporters Association" who should be fullfuling tasks in ther own role whilst raising money. By default these tasks have fallen on the Trust.

 

I hope this help to clarfiy a few points.

 

Before finishing I would also like to point out that at no stage duting my tenure as a Director have I receive money for any work I have done even when helping to fill the gap after Alan Hardy left.

 

Those who fancy a crack at the job, become a Trust Director and stake your claim against the rest. Just one warning , make sure you have enough time to do the job properly.

 

Regards

 

Barry

 

Barry,

 

Simon Corney suggested to me that I and others should become more involved with the trust to give it a greater voice amongst the 'normal' fanbase. I may not be an ex-High Ranking Police Officer, and therefore may not have your authoritarian tone (not a criticism) and your experience of high level meetings and committees but I do understand the concerns of the normal 'man in the street' Latics fan. Thus my suggestion to Simon through a third party of a fans' liaison officer that would pro-actively seek out supporters' concerns and misgivings.

 

I know you and Rick have invited me on several occasions to become more involved, but as I have consistently been one of Trust's most vocal critics it would be hypocritical for me to serve an organisation I see as a 'lame duck'. The post of fans' representative on the board is one that has not existed for some time, you are the Chairman of Trust Oldham, and also a Director of Oldham Athletic, however your role now has become much more than what it should have been initially. You have become the mouth-piece for Oldham Athletic and rightly or wrongly (and I know how hard you work for the club) the role of fans' representative has fallen by the wayside and did some time ago. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as i'm not so sure we need a 'fan' on the board just a place to voice concerns and given the right reassurance that their issue will be dealt with in the correct and professional manner. The fans feel undervalued and taken for granted, the club should have made some sort of statement over the change of heart re: Season Tickets, why two more kits are to be launched etc, etc. Personally, i'm not too fussed either way but I know fans that felt alienated and let down by the change of heart. A simple statement may not have appeased everyone but at least some insight into the thinking behind the change of heart would have been welcomed by many.

 

I know that the club would not entertain a different fan on the board, so the solution for me would be to resign from the Trust, continue with your directorship of Oldham Athletic (i'm sure even your most vocal critic will not argue that you serve and represent the club well) and allow the Trust to rebuild under greater autonomy from the club. Only then I feel will the fans take it seriously as an alternative to step in should the problems of 2003 return. The Trust in its present guise is failing.

 

Hope You are Well

 

Paul

Edited May 23, 2013 by oafcprozac

[jsslatic]

I agree with much of what Prozac says above. To me, the purpose of having a fan on the board is threefold and in no particular order:

 

1. To look out for fans' interests when suggestions for future actions are being made by the board;

2. To raise issues that are affecting the fans when the board meets; and

3. To act as a watchful eye for the fans to ensure that there isn't a repeat of 2003 without anybody knowing about it.

 

As far as I am concerned, and from my PMs with you the other week Barry, number 1 is not being carried out (or at least certainly wasn't with regards to the new shirts). With regards to 2, Prozac suggested, to paraphrase, that there should be a representative who is in the pubs before a game so fans can approach them. Whilst I don't think you, or anyone else who were to fulfil the role in the future, needs to be boozing for a few hours before the game in order to do your job, some other form of direct contact/drop in session would be useful - rather than having to PM and email and then if invited attend a particular meeting, why not just be readily more accessible. On a matchday there's between 2-6k Latics fans coming through the doors, perhaps it would be an idea to go to a different stand each game for half an hour before kick off. Just an idea.

 

The long and short of it is that, especially in the light of Alan Hardy's retirement and his excellence at responding to fans' queries, the fans rep should be there as the direct point of contact. My feeling, and without wanting to speak for others I get the impression it is replicated elsewhere, is that the impression you now give is that you are the direct point of contact for the club when they want to send a message to the fans, but not the other way round. That is not how it should be. If you're anybody's mouthpiece you should be ours.

Edited May 23, 2013 by jsslatic

[oafcprozac]

The issue is though JSS if you are a Director of the Club first and foremost and let's be honest that's what Barry is, then he is required to be schmoozing with VIP matchday guests. I wouldn't expect him to be 'getting down with the fans' he's a Director of The Club and needs to serve that purpose - that's why as we have said a Dedicated Fans' Liaison Officer would be so valuable to the club. As you and I say, Alan Hardy was a one stop shop for any concerns the fans may have had. Now any issues are dealt with abruptly, ineffectively or even ignored - no other organisation could survive by delivering such a poor service to its core customers, like it or lump it that's what we are.

 

And as we know many Latics fans can't be arsed seeking club reps out, they want a visual presence that they can approach at their convenience. Sean Jarvis was excellent at projecting an empathetic approach, he listened to the fans and articulated the reasons why decisions were taken. The club has been worse off ever since he wasn't 'effectively' replaced. I know the club has financial constraints and I know the staff there work bloody hard, but too many of the staff to me are 'Jack of All Trades', 'Masters of None' and areas do get seriously overlooked due to clear understaffing in comparison to similar sized clubs….

Edited May 23, 2013 by oafcprozac

[jsslatic]

The issue is though JSS if you are a Director of the Club first and foremost and let's be honest that's what Barry is, then he is required to be schmoozing with VIP matchday guests. I wouldn't expect him to be 'getting down with the fans' he's a Director of The Club and needs to serve that purpose - that's why as we have said a Dedicated Fans' Liaison Officer would be so valuable to the club. As you and I say, Alan Hardy was a one stop shop for any concerns the fans may have had. Now any issues are dealt with abruptly, ineffectively or even ignored - no other organisation could survive by delivering such a poor service to its core customers, like it or lump it that's what we are.

 

I agree with you. My thoughts are that if there were to be an additional appointment as fans' representative then great, but if the system is to stay as it is then the 'fans representative' side of the job should be more important than the 'on the board' side.

[oafcprozac]

I agree with you. My thoughts are that if there were to be an additional appointment as fans' representative then great, but if the system is to stay as it is then the 'fans representative' side of the job should be more important than the 'on the board' side.

 

That's not going to happen though given the amount of time Barry can give to being a Director of The Football Club, as I said the role of fans rep, went by the wayside imo a good few years ago, particularly given the fact we have such a small board and the Chairman being at the club so irregularly, I think it's fair to say as well as Neil Joy, Barry assists with the day to day running of the club.

[Barryowen]

Strange as it might sound Paul I agree with a lot you are saying (not everything). I am going out to a meeting and will come back to you later.

 

Barry

[oafc0000]

To me, the purpose of having a fan on the board is threefold and in no particular order:

 

1. To look out for fans' interests when suggestions for future actions are being made by the board;

2. To raise issues that are affecting the fans when the board meets; and

3. To act as a watchful eye for the fans to ensure that there isn't a repeat of 2003 without anybody knowing about it.

 

 

Totally agree with this... and it has not been the case in my opinion with Barry. That is not being personal... Its no more personal than not liking my current MP.

 

It is positive news that the Trust have now realised they have got the issue of membership wrong. No doubt the lack of support they have from the fan base has finally sunk home and they are ready to make changes now.

 

It was OUR money that created the trust and bought the shares. For the door to be slammed in many faces over the years because they weren't "members" was wrong and counter productive. It create a us and them mentality. It was OUR money that created the trust and we should have all been members by default. Having blue running in your blood should be the only membership card you need. Including the recently slagged off youngsters. You would of found a much bigger buy in from the start if this was the case.

 

This combined with the role of "fan on the board" being a none democratic appointment was really the undoing of the trust. I mean seriously Barry, as much as it might shock you, as an ageing ex-copper, you couldn't be further from being what many of us would see as a representative... Now if you was put in your position with a whopping election win then it would of been bareable. But that has never been the case. I understand you are appointed by the other trust directors, and rightly or wrongly that doesn't sit well with many of us. If you are not elected directly by the fan base you carry no mandate.

 

The trust need to open up membership to all fans in the first instance. In the second instance they need to make the role of who sits on the board an issue for all the fans and not a select few.

 

Its never too late to right the wrongs.

 

I think going forward it would seem that you (Barry) are needed by the club. No none is going to doubt the efforts you have put in or that you have brought value to the Board (more for the club owners prospective it seems to me than the fans). Maybe you could discuss continuing being on the baord while freeing up your trust position and opening it for someone else.

 

I doubt the idea no one else could do the role for many reasons. An idea that has been pushed by some.

Edited May 23, 2013 by oafc0000

[c.hill12]

Maybe certain positions within the trust maybe an option. I would be willing to meet with barry and the other trust directors to discuss my ideas?

[Barryowen]

oafc. You make a lot of valid points other than your reference to an ageing ex- copper. To be perfectly frank with you that is damn right rude. Nothing shocks me and I get on with all age groups surprising as it might seem to you.

 

When the stick comes out and I can't hack it I will let you know.

 

Barry

[oafc0000]

oafc. You make a lot of valid points other than your reference to an ageing ex- copper. To be perfectly frank with you that is damn right rude.

 

How is it rude ?

 

In politics and life in general people look to people representing them as being people who are from a similar walk of life to them. In general those people have walked the same path as you, have similar thoughts and feelings and understandings as yourself and you turn to those people to represent you. I am willing to bet we aren't cut from the same cloth in that way.

 

Its nothing personal, nothing personal at all... Its purely looking at you and making some assumptions about you going off what little I know. And as I said, I would need some convincing that an older man... and an ex-copper... is the sort of person is who is likely to fit that bill for me...

 

Going further with this... The attutidues you have shown recently regarding babysitting youths and so on, and many many many times over the years on various issues are so opposite to what I think, only goes to show what I said above is right regarding who I want as a representative.

 

You shouldn't take it to heart that your not my type of person... I very much doubt I am yours...

 

Its no more rude than me not wanting David Bullingdon Club Cameron from being my representative. Tony Blair always appealed to me because he was a younger person for example with similar ideas and values (minus blowing kids up in Iraq). Its natural to be attracted to people close to where you are in life...

 

Granted... My opinion may change if you actually subjected your position to the vote of the fans and I had time to read a manifesto you put forward why you was right for the job etc. But instead I am just life with some of the generalisations (prejudices even) I have formed about you based on what I know about you (granted very little - I haven't had the most positive of experiences with the police and I think you cop for that sometimes) and your previous comments on issues regarding the club.

Edited May 23, 2013 by oafc0000

[opinions4u]

How is it rude ?

 

The reference to age was unnecessary and you know it.

 

Going further with this... The attutidues you have shown recently regarding babysitting youths and so on, and many many many times over the years on various issues are so opposite to what I think, only goes to show what I said above is right regarding who I want as a representative.

 

I'm not exactly a "down with the kids" kinda bloke though I like the efforts they make to create atmosphere in the RRE. But I've witnessed some pretty idiotic behaviours too. It all culminated in a silly pitch invasion where 90 seconds after it started people, from nothing, get up, run down steps and leap over hoardings to get on the pitch. The initial act of mass joy, followed by rapid exit from the pitch would have been tolerable. Staying put while more decide to come on - bonkers. I know blaming "the kids" as a collective is a sweeping generalisation but accepting some of the things that have happened in the stands this season isn't an option for the club.

Edited May 24, 2013 by opinions4u

[oafc0000]

The reference to age was unnecessary and you know it.

 

Was it ? I think age is certainly a factor when selecting a leader. Its why the Tories, Liberals and Labour all have much younger leaders than in the past.

 

Its probably uncomfortable reality given the reaction from yourself and Barry... Are you saying its wrong for someone to feel more comfortable with someone closer to their age, background and opinions ?

 

I would imagine that if a 18 year old stood to be the fans representative on the board some people would say they where too young for their liking for many reasons.

[Barryowen]

I don't know if you were around at the time that fans had the opportunity to vote for people they wanted to make up the Trust. We were all required to put a past history together on which people could vote. It was on that basis that the orginial 12 people were democratically elected by the fans.

 

I doubt you know me properly and I also doubt if we have met. Perhaps those that have met me will have formed different views for good or for bad. I get on with most people and have little time to decide if a person is my type.

 

On the basis of the kids you seem to have made judgement out of ignorance. I have worked hard for the Matchday Club and always support the Boundary Blues, although I am bound to say perhaps more could be done.

 

The decisions made after the encroachment were made by the Board of Directors and not me personally, so why make a personal assessment.

 

I mention the word ignorance because you seem not to want to understand the consquences for the club of not doing anything. The FA and Football League, like it or not place stringent rules on clubs regarding their fans conduct.

 

Heavy fines and sanctions can be imposed whether we agree or not . It matters not whether we think they are being kill-joys or small minded, we have to show we are prepared to act positively..

 

Talk of more stewarding or polcinig mean money and its money we aint got believe me

 

The kids that have been identified will not be banned. They will be advised accordingly regarding conduct overall within the ground. The adults concerned because of their history are a different matter and suitable sanction will occur..

 

These are the sanctions we have promised the FA with the likelihood of a big fine if we had not treated the matter seriously. Call me what you want, but I would rather take proper action and have some money to spend on players rather than fines.

 

OAFC, it you would like to meet up for a pint before a game sometime give me a shout. It would be a pleasure to exchange views.

 

Barry

[oafc0000]

I'm not exactly a "down with the kids" kinda bloke though I like the efforts they make to create atmosphere in the RRE. But I've witnessed some pretty idiotic behaviours too. It all culminated in a silly pitch invasion where 90 seconds after it started people, from nothing, get up, in down steps and leap over hoardings to get on the pitch. The initial act of mass joy, followed by rapid exit from the pitch would have been tolerable. Staying put while more decide to come on - bonkers. I know blaming "the kids" as a collective is a sweeping generalisation but accepting some of the things that have happened in the stands this season isn't an option for the club.

 

It was a sweeping generational so I won't be held to account to harshly on brining age into a debate :P Specially considering I have given more than a justification why age is very much an issue when talking about elected representatives..

Edited May 23, 2013 by oafc0000

[Lukers1]

How is it rude ?

 

In politics and life in general people look to people representing them as being people who are from a similar walk of life to them. In general those people have walked the same path as you, have similar thoughts and feelings and understandings as yourself and you turn to those people to represent you. I am willing to bet we aren't cut from the same cloth in that way.

 

Its nothing personal, nothing personal at all... Its purely looking at you and making some assumptions about you going off what little I know. And as I said, I would need some convincing that an older man... and an ex-copper... is the sort of person is who is likely to fit that bill for me...

 

Going further with this... The attutidues you have shown recently regarding babysitting youths and so on, and many many many times over the years on various issues are so opposite to what I think, only goes to show what I said above is right regarding who I want as a representative.

 

You shouldn't take it to heart that your not my type of person... I very much doubt I am yours...

 

Its no more rude than me not wanting David Bullingdon Club Cameron from being my representative. Tony Blair always appealed to me because he was a younger person for example with similar ideas and values (minus blowing kids up in Iraq). Its natural to be attracted to people close to where you are in life...

 

Granted... My opinion may change if you actually subjected your position to the vote of the fans and I had time to read a manifesto you put forward why you was right for the job etc. But instead I am just life with some of the generalisations (prejudices even) I have formed about you based on what I know about you (granted very little - I haven't had the most positive of experiences with the police and I think you cop for that sometimes) and your previous comments on issues regarding the club.

I have no idea why you brought the age card out, totally inappropriate and had no relevance in the thread.

[oafc0000]

I don't know if you were around at the time that fans had the opportunity to vote for people they wanted to make up the Trust. We were all required to put a past history together on which people could vote. It was on that basis that the orginial 12 people were democratically elected by the fans.

 

I doubt you know me properly and I also doubt if we have met. Perhaps those that have met me will have formed different views for good or for bad. I get on with most people and have little time to decide if a person is my type.

 

On the basis of the kids you seem to have made judgement out of ignorance. I have worked hard for the Matchday Club and always support the Boundary Blues, although I am bound to say perhaps more could be done.

 

The decisions made after the encroachment were made by the Board of Directors and not me personally, so why make a personal assessment.

 

I mention the word ignorance because you seem not to want to understand the consquences for the club of not doing anything. The FA and Football League, like it or not place stringent rules on clubs regarding their fans conduct.

 

Heavy fines and sanctions can be imposed whether we agree or not . It matters not whether we think they are being kill-joys or small minded, we have to show we are prepared to act positively..

 

Talk of more stewarding or polcinig mean money and its money we aint got believe me

 

The kids that have been identified will not be banned. They will be advised accordingly regarding conduct overall within the ground. The adults concerned because of their history are a different matter and suitable sanction will occur..

 

These are the sanctions we have promised the FA with the likelihood of a big fine if we had not treated the matter seriously. Call me what you want, but I would rather take proper action and have some money to spend on players rather than fines.

 

OAFC, it you would like to meet up for a pint before a game sometime give me a shout. It would be a pleasure to exchange views.

 

Barry

 

You taken some leaps there... I think as a director of the club you had to handle things the way you did... but also exposes some of the conflicts of interests of also being a fans representatives. But that's already been discussed so no need to tred old ground. Plus I offered support of the contribution you have made at board level for the good of the club.

Edited May 23, 2013 by oafc0000

[oafc0000]

I have no idea why you brought the age card out, totally inappropriate and had no relevance in the thread.

 

Well it was one word in huge mass of other words so lets no overstate it all at the same time. Plus I offered a further reasoning to explain my thought process on it. If you don't agree fine but do let the major polical parties know that its of no significant.

 

And I was talking about what I personally want from a representative... So it was of relevance.

Edited May 23, 2013 by oafc0000

[youngen]

You're all old bastards, get in a ring and have a zimmer off

Edited May 23, 2013 by youngen

[Lukers1]

Well it was one word in huge mass of other words so lets no overstate it all at the same time. Plus I offered a further reasoning to explain my thought process on it. If you don't agree fine but do let the major polical parties know that its of no significant.

 

And I was talking about what I personally want from a representative... So it was of relevance.

Sorry, doesn't wash with me, wasn't relevant no matter how you jazz is it up.

[Barryowen]

Paul I promised I would get back to you. as I said I do agree with many points you make. I really do beleive in the principle that any organisation benefits from differenmt outlooks and views and indeed varying age group.

 

I think you do yourself a bit of a dis-servfice because I know weher your heart is and I would encourage you to re-think your views on the Trust. Whatever the model is, it is there to be moulded and developed and you have the ability to be part of that.

 

The issue of being a Director and Fan Representative can be very difficult and there are clashes, but overall the knowledge of how a football club works cannot be understated.. The Trust Directors are volunteers at the end of the day and have a limited time available.

 

I have never liked or been a "yes" man and respect those with different views to myself.

 

Thanks for enquiring how I am. Great. !!!!!!!!!. Just lookig forward to a new season and getting some new faces into the place.

 

We need to have a long chat sometime.

 

Barry

[Barryowen]

Sorry re the mistakes, pressed the button before I corrected.

[oafc0000]

Sorry, doesn't wash with me, wasn't relevant no matter how you jazz is it up.

 

meh... I am not trying to jazz or spin anything. I have pretty clearly spelt out what I was getting at. Take it or leave it.