Lee Sinnott Posted December 15, 2013 Author Share Posted December 15, 2013 We don't know what the issue is. But when I had depression it was an effort to get dressed, let alone do my job. Mind you, I managed to. Just. Well why did he play in the first place? Seems there is an issue, and I do sympathise, but I find it very poor that a footballer I pay to watch cannot run... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) Well why did he play in the first place? Seems there is an issue, and I do sympathise, but I find it very poor that a footballer I pay to watch cannot run... Reiterating that there's a massive leap being taken from incident to cause but ... 1) He's been concealing it, coping with it and hit the wall at 3.19pm yesterday. 2) He doesn't really know what "it" is. He just feels wrong. 3) The club are aware and felt getting game time would be positive, not negative. If it is something psychological the best we can do as supporters is to see it as an injury. If he'd played on a tight hamstring and torn it yesterday causing a substitution we'd want him to get it sorted an get fit. This should be no different. Edited December 15, 2013 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStationLatic Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 As a fan, I've felt ashamed reading this thread. I wish some people would just shut up, stop pretending they know things from people who know them - believe me you don't - and leave LJ to get on with it. Criticism fair enough, but not a witch hunt. Only played 19min yesterday yet has a thread named after him. What is it about these kids. One of the most laughable, idiotic comments I've ever seen was on here with people saying Winchester didn't mean that cross against Liverpool because he wasn't looking. Laughable. You try and kick a moving ball and come back to me.... There were tales of one main stand moaner not even celebrating Winchester's goal versus Swindon. In a meek team display, he was superb away at Wolves in the league. No praise. People are quick to forget the integral role Mellor played in keeping us up at the end of last season, likewise with Miller. That was arguably all the more impressive after their treatment under Dickov. They are still playing catch up. They are not immune to criticism, but no-one can say they don't get over-the-odds treatment with clear malice. Yet the likes of Croft and M'Voto are seemingly loved. Do you honestly think these guys aren't trying, aren't wanting to improve and forge a career in the game? Right, so lay-off the abuse. If they don't follow in Tarky's footsteps, shame - but they've not done it out of spite to annoy 'supporters'. So give them a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStationLatic Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 "Heard they are both wankers off the pitch as well" Ffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 "Heard they are both wankers off the pitch as well" Ffs What a pathetic childish statement, you should be ashamed of yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullet Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 As a fan, I've felt ashamed reading this thread. I wish some people would just shut up, stop pretending they know things from people who know them - believe me you don't - and leave LJ to get on with it. Criticism fair enough, but not a witch hunt. Only played 19min yesterday yet has a thread named after him. What is it about these kids. One of the most laughable, idiotic comments I've ever seen was on here with people saying Winchester didn't mean that cross against Liverpool because he wasn't looking. Laughable. You try and kick a moving ball and come back to me.... There were tales of one main stand moaner not even celebrating Winchester's goal versus Swindon. In a meek team display, he was superb away at Wolves in the league. No praise. People are quick to forget the integral role Mellor played in keeping us up at the end of last season, likewise with Miller. That was arguably all the more impressive after their treatment under Dickov. They are still playing catch up. They are not immune to criticism, but no-one can say they don't get over-the-odds treatment with clear malice. Yet the likes of Croft and M'Voto are seemingly loved. Do you honestly think these guys aren't trying, aren't wanting to improve and forge a career in the game? Right, so lay-off the abuse. If they don't follow in Tarky's footsteps, shame - but they've not done it out of spite to annoy 'supporters'. So give them a break. This looks like it's partially a pop at me. What I've said: Both have lots of talent. Mellor has been poor all season, but if there's something mentally wrong he shouldn't be playing and I hope he recovers. Winchester has improved a lot, but still looks to be inconsistent and has yet to address some glaring physical issues. From observing on the pitch, the psychological problems that some suggest they're suffering from manifests itself as looking like, to the fan, they're not working hard enough. The 'wankers' comment was stupid in hindsight. It was said before anyone suggested mental problems though. There's nothing more pleasing than your own players doing well, which is why we're probably overcritical of them. I'm desperate for them to do well and I'll continue to support them when they're playing, unlike some stubborn mainstanders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 How long do you want to give them though? Winchester - 35 appearances sinceNovember 2010 Mellor - 46 appearances since August 2011 Millar - 38 appearances since March 2010 Forget all this bollocks about positions etc, if they were good enough then they would have nailed down a first team place by now, not as if we've been blessed with loads of quality in that time. Winchester 26 (10) - Debut 6th December 2010 Aged 17 - three seasons - Now 20 Mellor 35 (11) - Debut 9th August 2011 Aged 18 - two and a half seasons - Now 20 Millar 8 (30) - Debut 13th March 2010 -Aged 18 - Call it three and a half seasons - Now 21 Must admit I'm surprised that there are not more substitute appearances between Winchester and Mellor, but you can't expect kids to go from youth team to playing 46 games a season in two years. Personally I expect this season to be Millar's make or break season and next year to be Winchester or Mellor. Just to put a little bit of perspective what I said above (and I agree with this stance taken by the club) about players that I think we all can agree never even looked like making it, let alone showing promise ala Mellor or Winchester. Matty Wolfenden 10 (37) - Debut 15th November 2003 Aged 16 - Released 2nd May 2009 Aged 22- Call it five and a half seasons. Kelvin Lomax 74 (20) - Debut 8th May 2004 Aged 17 - Released 1 February 2011 Aged 24 - Seven seasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_ktf Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Winchester 26 (10) - Debut 6th December 2010 Aged 17 - three seasons - Now 20 Mellor 35 (11) - Debut 9th August 2011 Aged 18 - two and a half seasons - Now 20 Millar 8 (30) - Debut 13th March 2010 -Aged 18 - Call it three and a half seasons - Now 21 Must admit I'm surprised that there are not more substitute appearances between Winchester and Mellor, but you can't expect kids to go from youth team to playing 46 games a season in two years. Personally I expect this season to be Millar's make or break season and next year to be Winchester or Mellor. Just to put a little bit of perspective what I said above (and I agree with this stance taken by the club) about players that I think we all can agree never even looked like making it, let alone showing promise ala Mellor or Winchester. Matty Wolfenden 10 (37) - Debut 15th November 2003 Aged 16 - Released 2nd May 2009 Aged 22- Call it five and a half seasons. Kelvin Lomax 74 (20) - Debut 8th May 2004 Aged 17 - Released 1 February 2011 Aged 24 - Seven seasons Tarky wasn't far off. Debut season in an out. Last season played a hell of a lot wiv mvoto. Undroppable this season. Generally if there good enough they do break through- certainly by the end of their second season. Kirk. Good impact player. Bury away last season he won us the game with his assist for smith. When he starts he's disappointing, never really affects the game in the same way as he does from the bench; a la Sid. I wouldn't keep. Mellor. IMO has had opportunities, but from the outside looking in, it's seems like a lot of varying issues. One step forward, two back. Strange one. Worth persevering. Winchester- great squad player. Lovely touch. For me he has broken through. Or is very close. Definitely keep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 How long do you want to give them though? Winchester - 35 appearances sinceNovember 2010 Mellor - 46 appearances since August 2011 Millar - 38 appearances since March 2010 Forget all this bollocks about positions etc, if they were good enough then they would have nailed down a first team place by now, not as if we've been blessed with loads of quality in that time. 35 regular appearances with runs of games can produce vastly different players than the scraps these lads have had over 3 or 4 years though. There are plenty of ex Oldham players in the Championship that are testament to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disjointed Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 What a pathetic childish statement, you should be ashamed of yourself. I think Ice station latic was quoting a previous post, the ffs gives it away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 James Tarkowski 68 (10) - Debut 22 January 2011 Aged 18 - two seasons - now 20. Incidentally, we've lost both games Tarky hasn't played this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) 35 regular appearances with runs of games can produce vastly different players than the scraps these lads have had over 3 or 4 years though. There are plenty of ex Oldham players in the Championship that are testament to that I did play with putting Tierney in there... Massive mistake that one. Edited December 15, 2013 by blueatheart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_ktf Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 35 regular appearances with runs of games can produce vastly different players than the scraps these lads have had over 3 or 4 years though. There are plenty of ex Oldham players in the Championship that are testament to that Tarky is testament to that. His development has been quality. The question is why haven't they had a decent run. Bad luck, poor form, not quite ready? If I take my rose tinted specs off, maybe they aren't as good as we think or hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) Any advances on psychological problem, ":censored:", depression or undiagnosed heart condition? JFC Edited December 15, 2013 by HarryBosch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 35 regular appearances with runs of games can produce vastly different players than the scraps these lads have had over 3 or 4 years though. There are plenty of ex Oldham players in the Championship that are testament to that Of course, but do you really see scope for vast improvement with these lads even given another 30-40 games? More faith than me if you do to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Of course, but do you really see scope for vast improvement with these lads even given another 30-40 games? More faith than me if you do to be honest. I do with Winchester and it only took a run of several games at left back for talk about a bid for Mellor from Fulham surfaced. I said earlier it's make or break for Millar but a string of 20 games will see whether these lads are up to it. They just are not going to get that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Of course, but do you really see scope for vast improvement with these lads even given another 30-40 games? More faith than me if you do to be honest. Absolutely. Mellor especially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_ragg1984 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 So what we can gather is that 40 off games in 3 years isn't that much at all. And if they play the same rate of games for the next 2 seasons they won't progress enough at all. They need a good run of 15-20 games which would do them no end of good. But the problem we have with that is we don't actually know if they will be good enough to do that. Johnson could pick them with the plan of giving them a good run, and if after 3 games we have lost all 3 everyone will want them dropped and the manager might have to take them out if the team. Winchester obviously has talent, but he looks poor so often. Think it was summed up last year when he was brilliant against Liverpool, and then garbage against Walsall a week later. He's just really hit and miss at the moment. Mellor is quite similar. Sometimes he looks really good, other times not quite so good. He's clearly got something wrong which none of us know about, so we don't know if that's the reason he often looks bad, or if it's just that he's not that good/lacking experience. Hopefully he will get over whatever the issue is and we will find out if he's got a future here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_ragg1984 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Absolutely. Mellor especially. Not if the next 30-40 games takes another 3 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBlue Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 If LJ signs some reinforcement in January, I'd like to see Mellor and Winchester loaned to League 2/Conference clubs. Dave made the point that it's fine to be getting 40 appearances, but when they're sporadic in several alternative, foreign positions they will struggle to develop. They're frustratingly on the fringe of the side, both with at least 3 players ahead in the pecking order. Get them playing in their respective positions, get them playing there week-in week-out, get them confidence and we'll see these lads become the players they always promised. Look at Matt Smith after going to Macclesfield on loan. Getting that run of games made a huge, huge difference. Even Mellor and Millar having finished their loan at Chorley came back to us and had their best form we've seen of them, at the end of last season. If LJ can get it right with these, then he can learn for the likes of Gosset and Truelove, who both look like cracking youth players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Feel for young David IF he is ill but the lad looks as if a good meal would kill him, picks up injuries quicker than A&E and really dont think the club should be saying "he couldn't run!" he is a pro athlete....????? It might well be true but a statement of "David has an underlying fitness issue we are working hard to get to the bottom of." gives him a chance. Can see next game idiots shouting. "Pick your legs up lad and run with em!" "Oi Bolt RUN!!!!!" Seen him a few times away from club and he always looks tired. B&Q last time with his partner he actually dropped what he had in hand and didnt notice just walked on. My wife said "Hes a dozy booger" not knowing who he was. Hope he gets sorted and back on track for club and family. He clearly wouldnt have these problems if he used TESCO.... That enhanced my feeling that there may be something undiagnosed underlying Mellor's "inability to run". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs synic Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 So what we can gather is that 40 off games in 3 years isn't that much at all. And if they play the same rate of games for the next 2 seasons they won't progress enough at all. They need a good run of 15-20 games which would do them no end of good. But the problem we have with that is we don't actually know if they will be good enough to do that. Johnson could pick them with the plan of giving them a good run, and if after 3 games we have lost all 3 everyone will want them dropped and the manager might have to take them out if the team. Winchester obviously has talent, but he looks poor so often. Think it was summed up last year when he was brilliant against Liverpool, and then garbage against Walsall a week later. He's just really hit and miss at the moment. Mellor is quite similar. Sometimes he looks really good, other times not quite so good. He's clearly got something wrong which none of us know about, so we don't know if that's the reason he often looks bad, or if it's just that he's not that good/lacking experience. Hopefully he will get over whatever the issue is and we will find out if he's got a future here. we only seem interested in giving loanees game time, we would be able to judge our players if we gave them 8 game on the trot, christ we even dropped lanzoni to fit in plummer, how mad is that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Ward Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 was at the game yesterday , and yes he dident play well but the way he treated the fans when he came out after half-time was way out of order he walked past the latics fans who clapped him and gave him encouragement ,the look he gave us as if we were a pile of dog -:censored: and couldent be arsed to even give a half-hearted clap back . sorry we pay our hard earned money that plays your wages and had traveled down to london to support you and the team, and if you think thats the way to treat people who were giving you support ,grow up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBL Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 As mentioned above, can we risk giving Mellor or Winchester the run of games they need, in their best positions? Mellor in centre-mid ahead of Smith or Wes, Winchester at right-back ahead of Kusunga or Lanzoni (or even Brown)? I'm not even sure what Winchester's best position is, some good touches but also lacks pace and still too lightweight for me - remember him getting bullied out of it against Stevenage a couple of years ago and doesn't look any stronger now. Frustrating as they've both got some talent, especially Mellor but it's such a physical league unless you're a world-beater you need mental and physical strength and total commitment (which is why Wes makes a difference, despite not being the best on the ball) and I'm still not convinced by either - loaning them out seems the better option, short-term anyway, to see if they've got it. Be nice to have a few more players coming through the youths - LJ not as bad as Dickov for loans, but agree we shouldn't be putting unproven lads like Petrasso & Plummer ahead of our own, unless they're going to improve the team a lot more than those two have - City must have some decent youth players but we haven't seen them yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOAFC Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 christ we even dropped lanzoni to fit in plummer, how mad is that ? Dropped Lanzoni to keep Grounds at CB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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