Harry Dowds Green Shirt

Yes

Quite an interesting debate here. One thing the league started to bring in only a few years back was a form of salary cap. Whilst this has worked well in other sports and other countries, our own league has failed to continue with its implementation. The reality of this is that football will continue to go backwards in terms of its financial management until such time as the FA/Football league enforce a properly structured salary cap. Leeslover makes the point about Sky money being filtered down and inevitably ending up in players and agents pockets. Whilst I agree with him that this would certainly be the end result with the present setup, a properly structured cap would prevent that happening. Taking league 1 and indeed ourselves as an example, where the current annual spend is say £3million, a salary and agents fee cap of 60% i.e. £1.8million would stop any of the extra money filtering through to players and agents. If for example an extra £0.5 million then filtered down this would help clubs manage their finances more successfully as long as the % figure of the salary cap was adjusted to take the additional money into account. Taking our current position an extra half million a year would leave us at around a break even situation. If clubs like ourselves were then to receive transfer fees ala Trotman from Preston this could be re-invested as it would count as income. It would also encourage clubs to invest properly, as we do, in the youth system. The alternative is to put a salary cap figure in place for all teams depending which league they are in. i.e. League 1 might have a cap of £2million per team. (I must say that this would not be my preference but it has worked in other sports such as rugby league) There are a number of other issues that would need to be addressed to make this work, but I am sure that with sufficient thought it could be set up. As examples, transfer fees and unscroupulous owners/directors. In terms of transfers, you may have a situation where a club does not break the salary cap but ends up losing money by paying transfer fees thus giving it a playing advantage over its near rivals, but putting it in financial trouble. It would require a ruling that clubs must show at least a breakeven figure over say a three year period so that it could only spend money it has in its coffers on transfer fees. At the same time, the ruling would need to include provision that you could not report a loss in any of these financial years unless you had reported at least an equivalent profit in previous year/s to offset. In other words you make a profit before spending it. The point raised about owners and directors could be more troublesome to enforce. In the old days of the maximum wage, owners and directors would pay players "extra wages" via their own companies. Whilst there would be nothing to stop this practice, it would certainly stop the Chris Moore scenario. By this I mean CM put money into the club as a loan and this therefore showed on the balance sheet as such. (not that we ever saw any balance sheets publicly whilst he was here.) When he decided to go, the club were faced with a loan of over £4million which they had no chance of repaying. By the money being paid from outside it would in effect be a type of sponsorship (not shown in accounts) but it would stop the owners directors claiming the money back when they left leaving clubs with debts they can't pay and putting them into administration/receivership. I do believe that there is a way for the Sky money to be distributed better and for it to filter down the leagues and not just end up in players/agents pockets. What it needs is for the FA/Football League to get a grip and come up with a workable solution to make it happen. But don't hold your breath Cheers Harry. P.S. I'm still haunted from seeing Ronnie Moore in Tenerife last month

Dont think that would work at midnight, although I could claim that he was staying at the Med Palace and that I was going to search him out to ask him to explain why she had a stiff neck from watching tics under his reign. I might get away with that one with some fabricated story in the morning

Greetings to all fellow tics from here in Sunny Tenerife. I was walking down the street last night just outside Playa De Las Americas, casually minding my own business wearing one of my latics casual shirts and who did I see walking past me with his wag and child? None other than Ronnie Bloody Moore. I know Ronnie recognised me and he must have seen the shirt, but he didnt let on and neither did I. I didn´t remind him that he was a football genius either. However I did look up in the air as I walked past Just thought I would let those still obsessed by Ronnie know that he is unlikely to be in the papers this week announcing any new signings for the 3rd year of his 2 year plan. Cheers, Harry.

Not really took any flights to watch the mighty blues. However I did have a rather strange way of getting to the England v France game at The Stadium of light in Benfica for Euro 2004. Having managed to get my hands on a pair of tickets for the game I then set about trying to sort out flights and accommodation for the 2 nights in Lisbon. As usual both flights and hotel rooms were in short supply. There were no direct flights to Lisbon and despite days of searching the net no rooms either. I did have the chance of flights direct to Faro, but that was 200 + miles to Lisbon so I ruled that out. In the end, getting desparate I booked a flight from Manchester to Madrid for a connecting flight to Lisbon on the Saturday morning with a return jouney via the same route on the Monday. I gambled that if I couldnt get a hotel room then I could get on a camp site. How wrong I was. Two weeks before hand I was struggling badly, tickets were in hand, flights booked but no room or camp site. Then purely by chance I was talking to Frank Bunns Chin and he had a couple of mates who were staying in a villa just outside Faro and who had 2 spare beds. A couple of phone calls later and I met up with .............Alan Groves Perm .........and things were sorted. Howver, although beds were now sorted, I had flights to Lisbon having ruled out direct flights to Faro earlier. What was to follow was an experience to say the least Saturday morning 8.00 am Manchester airport for Flight to Madrid. 12.30 pm local time Madrid Airport for connecting flight to Lisbon. 2.00 pm arrive Lisbon collect hire car for Faro. 3.30 pm collect fine on Toll road for not collecting ticket at appropriate Barrier. 4.30 pm hire car engine blows up on Motorway in the middle of nowhere 5.00 pm tow truck arrives, tows broken down hire car to Faro airport to collect replacement vehicle. 7.30 pm depart Faro airport to villa. 8.00pm arrive at Villa, park car and walk down to Bar/Restaurant to meet 9 other fellows including Alan Groves Perm, Andy Ritchies Hair Gel and Neil Adams Headband. In total 8 tics, 1 Bolton Fan, 1 Trafford Borough fanatic and a half tic half scummer. The lads said they had had a 4 pm start as they were having an early night as we had to be up at 5 am on the Sunday to catch the train upto Lisbon. 1.00 am Sunday morning leave the bar for our "early night" Not a bad night either meals and all the drink for 140 odd euros unbelieveable. 5.00 am get up 6.30 am arrive Faro train station and realise that I had left my passport at the Villa and I needed to take the passport to the train station ticket office to collect the train tickets that I had booked direct on the net. 6.59 am Pathetic ticket office barsteward finally gives in and lets me use my credit card as proof of identity to collect train tickets. 7.00 am Get on train and depart to Lisbon. Midday arrive in Lisbon for an afternoon of trying to set a world record with 50,000 other England fans of trying to empty every bar, off licence and supermarket in and around Rossio square of Alcohol and judging by the supermarket we went back into around 5.30 pm we probably succeeded. 6.00 pm arrive Benfica Stadium - Stadium of Light, fretting as to if we would get in. Were our tickets forgeries? Would we get throgh the alleged 3 security checks as the names printed on the tickets were not ours. 7.00 pm Get in ground YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. 8.00 pm Kick off. 9.45 pm England 1-0 up and with the game approaching injury time we were looking forward to a couple of hours celebrating in Lisbon before heading back to Faro. 9.50pm Game over. England Lose 2-1. Bloody David James and Bloody Henry. Bloody Silvestre (he should have walked) and Bloody Beckham. Midnight. catch train back from Lisbon to Faro. Absolute Nightmare. I cant remember if we caught our designated train or the next one as the station was packed with England fans returning to the Algarve. Oh and we had consumed 1 or 2 beveridges. 5.30 am arrive back in Faro. Massive line of people waiting for taxi. So decide to drive back in the hire car I left on a back street near the station, with Alan Groves Perm giving directions - Yes we got lost of course. 6.00 am arrive back at Villa 10.00 am get up, have breakfast with the lads and pack case. 11.45 am. set off back to Lisbon. 3.15 pm arrive at Lisbon airport and drop off hire car. Trying to explain to the dib dob on the desk that the original hire car had blown up and was at Faro airport was a nightmare but eventually we were free to go. 6.30 pm arrive at Madrid airport for connecting flight to Manchester 9.45 pm Arrive at Manchester airport. 10.30 arrive home. Heck of a journey, but what a fantastic weekend with several fellow ticks. Needless to say when going to Germany in 2006 we drove. Its far easier than flying.

It all depends what terms of reference you use. At the end of last season I had been on either the old or new ground of 89 teams including of course Boundary Park. That will drop this season by 2 to 87 as We lose Mansfield & Wrexham gaining Aldershot and Exeter. There again you could say that I have done 100 grounds of the current 92 for season 2008/09. That's 87 teams plus 13 teams old grounds. But then again that could be 110 with ex league teams now in the conference pyramid i.e. MANSFIELD, WREXHAM, CAMBRIDGE UNITED, TORQUAY, OXFORD UTD, YORK, HALIFAX SOUTHPORT, WIMBLEDON, RUSHDEN & DIAMONDS (Do they count as two teams/grounds ) Then theres non league teams we have played in the cup. i.e Burton Albion and Chasetown and Formby from the 1973/74 promotion and cup run season. Thats 113. And finally, I think. St. Mirren in the Anglo Scottish cup on the Col Shaw booze cruise (Beardy eat your heart out) I do believe thats 114 that I can remember off the top of my head. And and thats all seeing Tics play. There are of course other non league grounds that I have been on to see Latics play friendlies such as Stalybrdige, and I could add to that other grounds I have been just to to watch a non latics game, such as the Council House (Manchester City) Wembley, Millenium Stadium Cardiff, Nou Camp Barcelona, Stadium of Light Benfica. So really we have had this discussion a number of times over the last year or so and if we are going to have it again maybe we need an OWTB rule as to how you class trying to visit the 92. I propose that it should be 1) It has to be a ground you have seen the tics on and 2) It can be either the old or present ground of 1 of the 92 Cheers, Harry.

Well the good news is that it looks like 2 sections of the Roccy look set to be packed. The bad news is that you are not season ticket holder number 4861. (we wish) The club have a number of season tocket books pre printed and the numbers given out are random (You will notice your book is for the Roccy Road end and that stand doesn't hold 4,861.) This is similar to the match number you have to give in each match i.e. 1st home game vouucher 12, 2nd home game voucher 21 etc. This was apparently dreamt up by a brilliant criminologist who decided if you didnt know what match voucher would be demanded on the turnstile, you would have to bring your whole book and thus defeat touts etc. ha ha ha Of course there are enough seats in the small section of the RRE. 1608 to be exact in 2 sections. The large section holds 2993 in 4 sections They are not exactly equal in numbers but similar and season tickets are only being sold in 2 sections. Therefore season ticket holders will be relocated to the small section of the rre and pay on the day customers to the Chaddy or main stand. Simple really.

I couldn't possibly comment on such frivolous accusations IC. Having said that I do believe that certian figures (20% of £20 Million English pounds) have been stored in certain peoples brains and brought to the front of their thoughts each & every day since City approached them with a package to buy out the sell on clause. Now who would be stupid enough to take that proposal on? They really should have appraoched us with this in the summer of 2003.

Right taking the topic back on track. If the Richards deal does happen, and it can be anywhere between £18 & £24 million depending on whose source you believe plus any add ons, the payment situation between 2 Enlglish League clubs is this, as a worst situation, to comply with league & FA rules IIRC. 1) 50% of the initial Fee (£18-£24 million) upfront ie between £9-£12 Million. We take our 20% share of that i.e. £1.8-£2.4 Million. 2) The balance is payable either by monthly, quarterly or annual installments over the next 1 (one) year. we take our 20% cut out of each installment. 3) Add ons i.e for winning a trophy or a set number of caps, or a set number of appearances for the new club etc are payable in full upon the event happening. Therefore we get our 20% cut at that point. Therefore, we would receive 50% of our cut on completion of the transfer and the balance within the following 12 months except for the add on element, which can come during or after the 12 month period. One of the reasons why some transfers have the add ons, is that it enables clubs to spread the transfer fee over a longer period than would otherwise be allowed. The situation of payments between English and foreign clubs is different in that payment of transfer fees can be spread over longer periods, Hope this helps. Cheers, Harry.

Went to the game today and thoroughly enjoyed it. Thought that Dale were the better team. My 1st reaction was that it was a penalty to Darlo, but having seen it again on TV it clearly wasn't. Still it made up for the 1 they didn't get later when Jones had a Ferdinand moment. The referee. Well those who went to Vale last season won't forget Bibby will they. He sent Shez to the stands and Poggi off. On todays performance he clearly has not improved at all. How the hell do the FA have assessors at matches and sessions with the refs and yet they cannot improve their basic standards is beyond me. I can't agree that Bibby was against Dale he is just a crap ref. Always has been and it looks like he always will be. An appeal on the red card could go ether way. I hope it is overturned, because their were worse incidents in the match and Ravenhill should have walked during the Perkins incident as he should at least have had a yellow card and having already been booked for diving he would have gone as well. The stamp on the Dale player in the top corner looks like it was missed by the ref, although how intentional it was is debateable. Any way good look to Dale at Wembley. I hope they win. I also hope Stockport win this afternoon to set up the all North West (Lancashire- Cheshire) final so that at least we are guaranteed a derby next season. I know that the play offs dont always give a true picture of how good a team is and they tend to be tense affairs, but on todays showing, I don't think Dale will be a force in League 1 next season. Cheers, Harry

As a team with ambitions to go into the Premier league, I pose the question "would you really want to?" I pose the question as a Latics fan and after yet another quetionable perforamce by a "Premier League" referee, which poses the question is the Premier League fixed? The blatant penalty denied to Wigan and the failure to send off Scholes has surely handed the title to Taggart. Would you want us to be part of such a league or would you rather see the honest endeavour of players at Championship, League 1 & League 2 levels, with officials who are basically honest even if they are inept?

You don't have to renew on line. Its just ONE of the options available. If you are that bothered why not just go down to the ground and pay by cash or cheque or alternatively send your cheque in the post. The club make an extra option open this year and all you can do is moan FFS. Some people want to pay on their credit card and the club have been unable to offer this facility since being in administration because the Banks dont want to be caught out by a club who in effect are a new entity with no track record going bust. (They are only protecting their shareholders at the end of the day) The online facilty sidesteps this for a small fee as it is not the club who are the online ticketing provider. There are also people with other reasons for choosing the online option i.e. exiles who prefer the convenience. We have around 3.000 season ticket holders and the club are providing different options for different situations. If you are renewing or having a season ticket for the 1st time, just choose the option that suits you best. Not sure if the club have some kind of "customer service policy" but they are not as you say "taking the piss."

Have you heard Taggart's new rules for awarding a penalty against the red sox, as made up, sorry clearly outlined after Saturdays ridiculous award against his divine righters. It goes like this: - 1) It can only be a penalty if your hand is above your head (only applies if younited are defending - see Gallas of Arsenal 2 weeks earlier) 2) It cannot be a penalty if the ball is going direct to a United player (In this case it was Ferdinand or Brown - depending on whether the interview he gave was with the written press or Sky TV) 3) The linesman cannot give a penalty, it has to be the referee. So according to Taggart, the divine righters are hard done to by referees. pmsl Nine penalties awarded to them this season and Saturday was the 1st against them. Remember also the one given to them at OT this season in Grants 1st game in charge. What were those rules? If your foot is within 6 inches of Rooney / Greasy winker / dummy sucker it is a clear indisputable spot kick. And what has happened to the charges against Taggart and Queeroz. No fast tracking that one then. Hmm Is it any wonder they are not liked? So yes I am quite clearly an ABU. Forca Barca, come on you scoucers or if all else fails Come on you blues. Cheers, Harry

The "Best Seats" have already been reserved. ps. You had better put the spell check on before pressing the post button or THEIR will be lets of wong lords Cheers, Harry. pps. Thought I'd post on this thread as I didn't want to get involved in yet another Corporal highjacked thread.

So what you are saying is my original reply to Lags was right.

I know you always want to have the last word in these debates corporal and I really dont want to be going on any further about this so I will make this my last post on the topic and give you a chance to post last as usual You say "I don't see that the point about home support in relation to prices etc etc is all that relevant when, as already observed, crowds in general were lower." well price does have a bearing on home support. I refer in my earlier post to our 1st season in tier 2 in 1974/75 when the average home attendance was around the 10K and it cost 40 pence to go in the Chaddy and that the following season attendances dropped to about £8K. Well one of the main reasons for that drop was pricing. Prices went up to 65 pence and the 1st home game saw an attendance of around 6,500 including away fans. So yes it is relevant. You say "When debating the meaning of crowd figures, what you say here is the only thing that really counts: 'That season Royle invigorated the team he had inherited and got us challenging and lo & behold attendances rose. No different to any other scenario over the last 20 years or so. The team struggles or fails to make progress, attendances go down. The team is successful or challenging, attendances go up.' Nice to see we agree on something then

Ok then 3,920 ish times better if you want to be pedantic and take out of context what I was saying

I think it has something to do with the accreditation. The club has had a problem with credit card companies since being in administration, but I think thay have a partner for the online sales, that overcomes that particular problem. Hope this helps lags. Harry.

Yep, your right crowds were higher. We had just retured to the 2nd tier of English football after a 20 year absence, the team under Jimmy Frizz were playing cracking football with 2 wingers, McVitie & Groves, had gone on a run winning 10 consecutive league matches, had a good cup run culminating in a 4th round game at BP against top tier (I think) Burnley and were coming up against what at the time were massive teams only recently out of the top tier and with great recent traditions, the llikes of your Sheffield Wednesdays and Sunderlands etc who brought with them followings of 4,000. Yet despite all that success including the 2 promotions in 1970 & 1974, the flair football and the "fantasy" opposition we still only averaged 10K home supporters that season at a time when the admission to the Chaddy end was 40p (yes thats forty pence for you young uns) The following season we averaged less than 8k home fans with crowds dropping season on season until Frizz was replaced with Royle in 1982. That last season of Sir Jimmy saw crowds drop off drastically in the 2nd half of the season after such a promising start was dreadfully affected by the untimely death of our then England coach Bill Taylor. Whilst 2,800 was not the norm for the season, it certainly was at the seasons end when without the away support when we played Derby, our home crowds were down at that level. Im sure if you get the records out you will find I am correct. What changed the alarming drop in attendances was the change of manager and style of football allied to the short term success that brought before finances came to bite us on the bum. That season Royle invigorated the team he had inherited and got us challenging and lo & behold attendances rose. No different to any other scenario over the last 20 years or so. The team struggles or fails to make progress, attendances go down. The team is successful or challenging, attendances go up. One final point. You state "In the earlier part of our long period in the second tier crowds were considerably higher than at present-and this at a time when attendances were still quite a bit lower than they've been in the top two divisions since the early-mid 1990s." Well (1) We were in a bloody higher division and (2) away followings were quite often brilliant creating an improved and enjoyable atmosphere in the ground. So Sunderland (4,000 fans in the uncovered Rocky) was 5 million times better than Bournemouth (80 odd in the accoustically improved covered Rocky) (3) How many of those seasons "In the earlier part of our long period in the second tier" were actually higher in terms of home support than they are now and in relation to cost then and now, how much cheaper was it to attend games then, allowing for inflation and quoting like for like? (4) What were average home attendances in years 5-11 of that "long period in the second tier" compared to years 5-11 in this period in the third tier? Cheers, Harry

Bloody Hell - Coco loco back in happy clappy mode

Actually manure had a gate of around 27,000 for a midweek league game against the wombles in the late 1980's :grin: and we had a home gate of 2,800 for a then division 2 game against Charlton in Jimmy Frizz's last season. So Corporal does that mean that our gates have gone up or down or, making allowances for the fact that "Everybody's crowds were lower during the 1980s" and the fact we were in 1 league higher at the time, we have stayed the same? Just wondering like.

PMSL :grin: :grin: Next it will be a prescription of bromide for prozac

Talk about a thread going off topic. What was the topic?

Of the current 92 league teams I have been to either the old or new grounds (in some cases both) of 89 of the teams all watching Latics. The 3 missing are Barnet, Dagenham & Redbridge (Is that 2?) and Morecambe. Add on ex league teams now in the conference & conference North & South, and I have also been to the following grounds to watch Latics when they were still in the league: - Torquay Oxford Halifax Rushden & Diamonds Cambridge Southport Oh and of course Wembley more than once. Cheers, Harry

talking of which........................................................................... ............................. try this You are driving at constant speed, on your left is a sheer drop, on your right is a fire engine, travelling the same speed as you. In front of you is a galloing pig, the same size as your car and you cannot overtake it. Behind you is a helicopter flying at ground level also travelling at the same speed. What must you do to safely get out of this highly dangerous situation?................................................................................ .......................................................... Get the off the kiddies merry go round you pissed up sod. :grin: P.S. Apologies for the swearing which is in the joke. lol