24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 the thing is that the hamas use the kids as sheilds and keep them near the rocket launchers knowing the idf will attack them It's obvious that you're more than okay with the idea of the IDF taking out women and children in a UN school in the name of self-defence, but what do you think about the strategic merits of this latest abomination? Sure some Israeli politicians are set fair for the forthcoming elections (which I'm sure have nothing at all to do with this mess), but do you think the rockets are going to stop? Do you think the ground invasion has eased or exacerbated tensions in the area? Oh yeah: who did start this? Adam and Eve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Sure some Israeli politicians are set fair for the forthcoming elections (which I'm sure have nothing at all to do with this mess), but do you think the rockets are going to stop? Do you think the ground invasion has eased or exacerbated tensions in the area? The fairly predictable outcome will be a strengthening of Hamas relative to Fatah. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hamas taking power in the West Bank sooner or later. Look at the boost in prestige Hezbollah got in the region after going toe to toe with the IDF the other year. It’s rather ironical that the Israelis previously sought to boost Hamas against the (then at least) anti-Islamic Fatah back in the day when Arab nationalism was the stronger anti-Israel force in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 It's obvious that you're more than okay with the idea of the IDF taking out women and children in a UN school in the name of self-defence, but what do you think about the strategic merits of this latest abomination? Sure some Israeli politicians are set fair for the forthcoming elections (which I'm sure have nothing at all to do with this mess), but do you think the rockets are going to stop? Do you think the ground invasion has eased or exacerbated tensions in the area? I'd expect they will stop after a ceasefire is negotiated for a bit, and then when they do start again (which they will), at least their capabilities will be lower. Israel went into this war to protect its citizens from rocket fire. Whilst not eliminating the threat completely, they should have dramatically reduced it. Tension will always be high, even if/when a Palestinian State is formally created. Israel is just concerned with trying to stop this tension from manifesting itself in attacks on its people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 It is rather ironical that the Israelis previously sought to boost Hamas against the (then at least) anti-Islamic Fatah back in the day when Arab nationalism was the stronger anti-Israel force in the world. Agreed, but also expected. Do not forget of course that Israel was boosting Fatah last year in the Hamas-Fatah War which drove the latter out of Gaza. Israel will always try and support whoever the lesser threat is. No good can come to either side if Hamas take control of the West Bank. At least in Gaza, the only major city that can be hit by rockets is Be'ersheba. If an Iranian/Syrian funded Hamas are able to fire into Jerusalem, it will kick off big time. And to be honest, for all their rhetoric and what have you...I don't think any of the Arab nations particularly want an all-out Arab-Israeli War, which I fear would be the only possible consequence of rocket attacks on Jerusalem. Still, hypothetical situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I did find this picture on the BBC site amusing. Clearly the Iranians were touched by the recent C4 documentary on his rehabilitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7819371.stm ...eyewitnesses have told the UN that about 30 Palestinians died earlier this week as Israeli forces shelled a house in Gaza City into which Israeli soldiers had previously moved about 100 people, half of them children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7819371.stm And Amnesty International have reported that Israeli troops are occupying postions in Palestinian houses, making the inhabitants go upstairs. I suppose they must be good spots to take out those terrorists who hide behind human shields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 the thing is that the hamas use the kids as sheilds and keep them near the rocket launchers knowing the idf will attack them Even the meatheads in the IDF must have realised that taking out a UN school would be controversial. Here is the Israeli version of proportionality: Flags, banners, marches: small arms fire, sometimes into the crowd, sometimes not. Stone throwing: tank batteries. Blockade, punitive sanctions. No medical supplies to the area from which stones are launched. Two-bit, inaccurate rockets: airstrikes, invasion. Straight-faced discussion of nuclear option. Every child a target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 What's really sad is the inevitability that having mentioned the "war crimes" phrase in relation to the most recent atrocity, the UN will almost certainly not have the will to go ahead and charge Israel. I feel genuinely very sorry for Bob and every other ordinary Israeli citizen. But Bob, at least your family isn't under immediate threat of annihilation by a highly developed military machine. That's the current position for every single inhabitant of the Gaza Strip. Innocent people just like you. I cannot support what the Israeli government is doing to protect itself. And no, I don't believe it is effective, and I don't believe that even in the short to medium term it will actually have seriously reduced the Hamas threat. The tragedy is that a viable, sustainable solution seems just as far away now as it ever was. I just hope that if the conflict widens it does so slowly. We need that dangerous fundamentalist out of office (that would be Bush, by the way) so he doesn't use it as an excuse to annihilate Iran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I think it's relevant to point out that, like most Israelis, Bob is an army reservist and was called up to serve in a tank unit the last time they invaded Lebanon. That's why I've hoped to get him to consider the moral questions about when to open fire and when not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Good point leeslover, I hadn't thought of that. If you're called up Bob, we'll be thinking of you - whatever the politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 now that lebanon have been getting involved again with israel,i can see this totally getting out of control in the whole region.. arab country will brush their differences aside and this will be a all out war situation. politics,religion,whatever.its getting to a situation where sooner than later,the yanks will be poking their noses in and the british government come wandering in behind, tugging the tailcoats of them. israel seem out of control and now ,even if you brush aside religion and the jewish state,it would be very hard to still justify their continuing unethical actions in everyday gaza city. i mean,the british army never went round bombing anything they though was a reasonable target in n. ireland ,DAY IN DAY OUT did they? things did happen that where deservingly condemed (bloody sunday etc),but whats happened in the last 2+weeks over there has been just OTT. they have messed up and this has become a situation of "point of no return". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Disagree on several points there Johnny now that lebanon have been getting involved again with israel,i can see this totally getting out of control in the whole region.. arab country will brush their differences aside and this will be a all out war situation. Very much doubt it. As jss said earlier in the thread, there's no way the Arab countries are going to go for a war. Perhaps 20 years ago they could have had a go, were it not for the US guarantee, but not a chance now. With Iraq a broken shell of a country (in terms of going to war at the very least), Syria just looking a bit rubbish, Egypt and Jordan not interested, who's going to do it? Israel could smash them all at once. I think the rockets from Lebanon were more symbolic than anything. Hezbollah have in general been far more about kicking the Israelis out of Lebanon than getting involved in the wider scenario. the yanks will be poking their noses in and the british government come wandering in behind, tugging the tailcoats of them. The British government has never followed the tailcoats of the US on this issue. The Foreign Office is famously, or notoriously depending on your point of view, Arab-friendly, dating no doubt from the friendships with the various Arab royal families (who I make no defence of) under their influence and bad feeling from the terror campaign against British UN-mandated troops that preceded the founding of the Israeli state. The old deal was that Britain left the US to pursue it's Israel policy and the US kept out of Ireland. i mean,the british army never went round bombing anything they though was a reasonable target in n. ireland ,DAY IN DAY OUT did they? things did happen that where deservingly condemed (bloody sunday etc),but whats happened in the last 2+weeks over there has been just OTT. The tactics used by the UK, and more so the US, in Iraq and Afghanistan, aren't all that different to those used by the IDF against insurgencies in Gaza and the West Bank. It's a sobering thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Disagree on several points there Johnny Very much doubt it. As jss said earlier in the thread, there's no way the Arab countries are going to go for a war. Perhaps 20 years ago they could have had a go, were it not for the US guarantee, but not a chance now. With Iraq a broken shell of a country (in terms of going to war at the very least), Syria just looking a bit rubbish, Egypt and Jordan not interested, who's going to do it? Israel could smash them all at once. I think the rockets from Lebanon were more symbolic than anything. Hezbollah have in general been far more about kicking the Israelis out of Lebanon than getting involved in the wider scenario. The British government has never followed the tailcoats of the US on this issue. The Foreign Office is famously, or notoriously depending on your point of view, Arab-friendly, dating no doubt from the friendships with the various Arab royal families (who I make no defence of) under their influence and bad feeling from the terror campaign against British UN-mandated troops that preceded the founding of the Israeli state. The old deal was that Britain left the US to pursue it's Israel policy and the US kept out of Ireland. The tactics used by the UK, and more so the US, in Iraq and Afghanistan, aren't all that different to those used by the IDF against insurgencies in Gaza and the West Bank. It's a sobering thought. Agree with the above. I do wonder what Israel are planning though in the 'escalation' that they have warned the Palestinians of today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) Disagree on several points there Johnny "Very much doubt it. As jss said earlier in the thread, there's no way the Arab countries are going to go for a war. Perhaps 20 years ago they could have had a go, were it not for the US guarantee, but not a chance now. With Iraq a broken shell of a country (in terms of going to war at the very least), Syria just looking a bit rubbish, Egypt and Jordan not interested, who's going to do it? Israel could smash them all at once. I think the rockets from Lebanon were more symbolic than anything. Hezbollah have in general been far more about kicking the Israelis out of Lebanon than getting involved in the wider scenario." i have to admit not being very up to date with the happenings of the major arab states,but the ones i was thinking of are the likes of iran rebels,iraq,lebanon etc etc..the ones with the more "loony" element within their background.agree about the likes of egypt. remember,iran still have some crazy idiots roaming around the arab states,in hiding,with other terrorist groups etc... iraq has a president who on record has said things like wiping israel of the face of the world-and he has the weapons capable to do it. The British government has never followed the tailcoats of the US on this issue. The Foreign Office is famously, or notoriously depending on your point of view, Arab-friendly, dating no doubt from the friendships with the various Arab royal families (who I make no defence of) under their influence and bad feeling from the terror campaign against British UN-mandated troops that preceded the founding of the Israeli state. The old deal was that Britain left the US to pursue it's Israel policy and the US kept out of Ireland. i see what you mean,but do you not think the british government simply cannot afford to upset the yanks if they decide on wading in? the british government have been giving some pretty sad vocal distain toward israel IMO,the people on the marches today and beforehand have made far more impact.but thats the problem.its not about you or mine opinions about it-its about the govenments of these countries. the saudis as you rightly say are very deeply (and very disturbingly) embeded in the british system of government,but i wasn't expecting them to get directly involved here..but again,they have plenty of idiot groups within these countries.. regarding the yanks keeping out of ireland,well clinton just couldn't help it could he! that why i'm in the way of thinking as soon as usa get activly involved -round the table or with a UN led force,that when uk will too. The tactics used by the UK, and more so the US, in Iraq and Afghanistan, aren't all that different to those used by the IDF against insurgencies in Gaza and the West Bank. It's a sobering thought. true,but tactics by the british army in afghanistan and iraq have been largly very restrained and within any rules of the war game...the yanks though have their usual" we know best" attitude when its obvious they don't.what the IDF are doing at the moment isn't adering to any type of UN rules.but hey-the israelis are saying its all rubbish about these reports..we're being fed bull:censored:. so whos right,whos wrong here?! Edited January 10, 2009 by johnny punkster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 don't know whats happened there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 don't know whats happened there! Been sniffing the gas from them blowers Johnny? Anyway, never let an Iranian hear you call them an Arab, or you'll have a proper war on your hands. It's worse than calling someone from Royton a Gawbie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 lol...think ive sorted it..WTF went on there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Anyway, never let an Iranian hear you call them an Arab, or you'll have a proper war on your hands. It's worse than calling someone from Royton a Gawbie! honest? i've learnt something today! so,what do they consider themselves as? ...i mean ,we are as british,can be lumped onto the "european" tag. (i bet this is bleedin obvious..but i'm tired and i need a beer now!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 honest? i've learnt something today! so,what do they consider themselves as? ...i mean ,we are as british,can be lumped onto the "european" tag. (i bet this is bleedin obvious..but i'm tired and i need a beer now!) Iranians are Iranians, or Persians if you prefer. No links at all with the Arabs except that they are Moslems, and they don't even share the same flavour of that one (as I understand it the only Arab Sheite Moslems are in Syria and the Lebanon, hence the links). Their culture and language stretches back far further than the days when Alexander the Great was squaring up to Darius III. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 The tactics used by the UK, and more so the US, in Iraq and Afghanistan, aren't all that different to those used by the IDF against insurgencies in Gaza and the West Bank. It's a sobering thought. true,but tactics by the british army in afghanistan and iraq have been largly very restrained and within any rules of the war game...the yanks though have their usual" we know best" attitude when its obvious they don't.what the IDF are doing at the moment isn't adering to any type of UN rules.but hey-the israelis are saying its all rubbish about these reports..we're being fed bull:censored:. so whos right,whos wrong here?! RoE are a CoC responsibility, and theatre specific. I doubt Hamas has such structure and this is where the confusion is, but the IDF must operate with such - like the white card with our lads. Our boys are seeing action in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they are under a lot of pressure due to the contstaints of their RoE's. Things like the CIMIC engagement were a legal minefield so to speak. IDF cannot justify firing into a school, the potential for collateral damage far outweighs the possibility of taking a target down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Iranians are Iranians, or Persians if you prefer. No links at all with the Arabs except that they are Moslems, and they don't even share the same flavour of that one (as I understand it the only Arab Sheite Moslems are in Syria and the Lebanon, hence the links). Their culture and language stretches back far further than the days when Alexander the Great was squaring up to Darius III. persians...thats it! andy..i bow down to your knowledge mate-my memory bank is stuffed full of crap these days,i struggle to remember the kids date of births sometimes... old age is creeping in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 persians...thats it! andy..i bow down to your knowledge mate-my memory bank is stuffed full of crap these days,i struggle to remember the kids date of births sometimes... old age is creeping in! It's a trade off. I can't remember bugger all about Latics when I was a little 'un As a late seasonal note, the 3 Kings of Biblical fame were Iranians, as was Freddie Mercury by descent. And my mate Jon on the same principal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 agree with your post there rummy. the fact the british army have left some parts of iran with many locals thanks,compared to the yanks leaving their stations and still being hated says a thousand things about how these two different armies handle situations. as i said..the yanks know "best",and they hate being being told a better way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Dog Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Even the meatheads in the IDF must have realised that taking out a UN school would be controversial. Here is the Israeli version of proportionality: Flags, banners, marches: small arms fire, sometimes into the crowd, sometimes not. Stone throwing: tank batteries. Blockade, punitive sanctions. No medical supplies to the area from which stones are launched. Two-bit, inaccurate rockets: airstrikes, invasion. Straight-faced discussion of nuclear option. Every child a target. Here is the Hamas version of proportionality: Suicide bombers in nightclubs, shops and buses packed with innocent, defenseless civilians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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