Diego_Sideburns Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 It's been suggested recently that redeveloping Boundary Park is still an option. Mr. Green Shirt's post contains incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. No it doesn't. I have never said that redeveloping BP is not an option. However, it is clear that the Failsworth move is now the preferred option. Cheers, Harry The answer given at the Forum on 10th August: A's: AH - There have been lots of changes, staying at BP is no longer a viable option. By moving, building costs have come down recently, we cannot stay at BP. Land at BP gives us value we would otherwise not have. We can now sell the land the current stadium lies on. It costs too much to maintain BP considering it is a very old ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I implore you to choose your words more carefully, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I implore you to choose your words more carefully, then. OK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I implore you to choose your words more carefully, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) I'll hazard a guess that the following are included in the plans when they are announced though: - 1) Hotel 2) banquetting and conferenece facilities 3) 20 corporate/private boxes 4) indoor dome 5) 8-10 5 a side pitches 6) 600+ car parking spaces to be let on a park and ride basis to GMPTE or Metrolink or some similar scheme and maybe some other things. What will all that raise? I'd hazard a guess that it will be more than TTA are putting in annually to keep us afloat. That's a bold guess, and I accept it as genuinely that. If all the above is included then it will go a long way towards easing some of my concerns about the move. It's not easy to see how it will be though, and without realistic figures to look at (instead of those made up by speculative fools on here, and please don't respond to this with more of the same) it's harder still to see how this project - if it does include all the above - is our only viable option and redeveloping BP with similar facilities isn't. (Yes I know it's mostly about the sale of land, but is that difference really so great?). I'll happily admit my doubts and concerns are mostly borne out of not knowing all the facts and second guessing TTA's current mindset. And where I don't know the facts and figures I might speculate occasionally based on what little I do know but I'm not inclined (as so many others seem to be) to make them up as I go along and then claim them as FACT. I'd still love to see the "figures" from those who claim TTA are just in this to make themselves a profit. It would appear that despite everything they have done there are still some Oldham fans who would claim to have been suspicious of TTA from the start. I find that nonsensical, but sadly it seems to be indicative of a common attitude in the town - a deep suspicion of any and all "outsiders", a natural dislike and mistrust of anyone "successful" (which seems to be based in a notion that anyone wealthy must be a crook), a total lack of recognition or gratitude for any good they've done, and an overriding belief - despite the absence of any evidence to support it - that they're just here to screw us. I'm not one of the above pitchfork and torch bearers, but I am concerned that TTA have reached a point where their plans for the club are geared to the finance they have available and a medium term exit, and that such plans may not be in the very best long term interests of the club. But once again I stress, I see that as being a result of the situation TTA now find themselves in rather than any original intent. Edited September 17, 2009 by garcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) I am personally not so cynical of TTA's motives in the big picture. They have said they will sell to the "right" investor. They have put their money into the club, and they don't owe any more favours to the club or to the fans. If they pull out tomorrow, then I would say "thanks for at least supporting the losses for 5 years". When somebody buys a football club, the money they put into it is not a favour but a responsibility. Nobody puts a gun to anybody's head and forces them to buy, after all. especially with markets set to improve! Don't bank on it. Hang on reeeeeewind! You didn't know it was a problem at the time. Looking back it was a mistake, but how the hell were we to know? How could we gather enough solid evidence that would indicate Moore's dodgy finances, the average Joe who watches Latics can't. They can't be blamed for it, and neither can you - nobody can. Put it down to an experience. You can't learn from situations like this to make a better decision next time, because we don't get to make the decision as to who runs our club. There aren't many alternatives to a football fan in this country other than voting with their feet. I was going to say it's actually suprising how little say fans have in their club, but perhaps it isn't - if we got hold of it maybe we'd break it once and for all. None of us can agree on anything! I'm not blaming anybody. I've already said that there must have been loads of people who were uneasy about the amount of cash being spent on the club relative to CM's reputed wealth. I was, and, like everybody else, chose to ignore it (not that there was a choice, in reality, as you say.) No he didn't. Much of his money was tied up in Torex and the Serious Fraud Office haven't finished with that yet. If he had been worth (and by worth I mean have available) ten times £45m I suspect he'd have bought a bigger club in the first place. I realised very soon in his reign that it was built on sand and that played a large part in why, frankly, my main emotion this time round is indifference. I'm very sad about that. I know what you're saying, but he must have had some millions at least-where did the money he spent on the club come from otherwise? "Is blind pessimism any better or worse than blind optimism? So many of the "wise sages of disbelief" admit that they have no facts to base their pessimism on, and no real reason not to trust TTA. Much of it seems to be based on things that haven't been done and wanting to know why these things haevn't been done - e.g why no consultation about f/w before they announced - well, 'cos you can't really have a vote off 3500 people on what to do with the club. Others say they're pessimistic 'cos TTA haven't looked at other sites like coal pit lane or that land behind alexandra park - but they are both green belt. And some of us are pessimistic because even if everything goes smoothly with the new stadium project, the plan, as is indicated by the low stadium capacity, is clearly to make us a well-run lower division club. This plan is unlikely to work because such lack of ambition (no matter how remote the possibility of success) will drag the club further down. Edited September 17, 2009 by Zorrro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I'd still love to see the "figures" from those who claim TTA are just in this to make themselves a profit. It would appear that despite everything they have done there are still some Oldham fans who would claim to have been suspicious of TTA from the start. I find that nonsensical, but sadly it seems to be indicative of a common attitude in the town - a deep suspicion of any and all "outsiders", a natural dislike and mistrust of anyone "successful" (which seems to be based in a notion that anyone wealthy must be a crook), a total lack of recognition or gratitude for any good they've done, and an overriding belief - despite the absence of any evidence to support it - that they're just here to screw us. Spot on, and that's also true of the Council, although not so much now. They've been denied their Plan A purely through suspicion of other motives as well as petty local politics and certain councillors trying to feather their nests. But it's this town in a nutshell. This bloody town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 The initial plan was to sell the land at BP for 700 apartments to fund the so called "super duper all singing all dancing 16,000 stadium that would see us propelled into europe." And here we have an example of the sleight-of-hand that distracts from the downscaling of ambition that's going on. The BP plan was supposed to propel the club into the Championship and establish us there. Now such an ambition is presented as being as remote as the club aiming to play in Europe would be. (I know they're not Harry's words, but it still applies.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 We are in the middle of a recession, probably the worst for almost a century. Plans have had to be altered because of that and the club has to move on. But moving on in this way means dropping any pretensions of being anything more than a lower division club. And in the end it will finish the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I'll hazard a guess that the following are included in the plans when they are announced though: - 1) Hotel 2) banquetting and conferenece facilities 3) 20 corporate/private boxes 4) indoor dome 5) 8-10 5 a side pitches 6) 600+ car parking spaces to be let on a park and ride basis to GMPTE or Metrolink or some similar scheme and maybe some other things. What will all that raise? I'd hazard a guess that it will be more than TTA are putting in annually to keep us afloat. And I'll be more than happy for someone to quote me on that after the palns are announced. That is one hell of a guess.... Was it a guess or are you a club mole ? If the plans include all above AND the profits for them will go towards funding the club then I would be happy... Fact is we have no bloody idea as it stands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 That is one hell of a guess.... Was it a guess or are you a club mole ? I thought everybody knew that Harry is the Sword and Shield of the Revolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I know what you're saying, but he must have had some millions at least-where did the money he spent on the club come from otherwise? Well yes he had money, I'm not suggesting he was on his uppers but his quoted wealth of £45m was a mirage. There was little chance of that sum ever fiding its way into the bank and share valuations are not cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Well yes he had money, I'm not suggesting he was on his uppers but his quoted wealth of £45m was a mirage. There was little chance of that sum ever fiding its way into the bank and share valuations are not cash. Worryingly he was a qualified accountant iirc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boundaryblue80 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) No it doesn't. I have never said that redeveloping BP is not an option. However, it is clear that the Failsworth move is now the preferred option. Cheers, Harry And why is this so? More profit? No facilities for Oldham centrally which was the idea for redevelopment. And when you get answers from Hardy at the Forum like "we're tapping into a new fanbase" one that's full of Sky Blues and Reds with a marginal smattering of our blue you lose faith in the answers you are being given. Answers like those you have quoted regarding what is going to happen to money raised. And whether OAFC will own the stadium in the end! Edited September 17, 2009 by boundaryblue80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Worryingly he was a qualified accountant iirc. IIRC his paper wealth was down to £45m AFTER the tech stock market crash wiped most of his paper wealth out. He was worth a :censored:load until then. And I doubt many multi-millionaires keep their money in cash in the bank, it is one step up from keeping it in a sock beneath the bed. No doubt we all saw the tech crash, personally my only regret is that Corp didn't use his foreknowledge of it to short the market massively and become the £30m saviour that we now need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boundaryblue80 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I'll happily admit my doubts and concerns are mostly borne out of not knowing all the facts and second guessing TTA's current mindset. And where I don't know the facts and figures I might speculate occasionally based on what little I do know but I'm not inclined (as so many others seem to be) to make them up as I go along and then claim them as FACT. I'd still love to see the "figures" from those who claim TTA are just in this to make themselves a profit. It would appear that despite everything they have done there are still some Oldham fans who would claim to have been suspicious of TTA from the start. I find that nonsensical, but sadly it seems to be indicative of a common attitude in the town - a deep suspicion of any and all "outsiders", a natural dislike and mistrust of anyone "successful" (which seems to be based in a notion that anyone wealthy must be a crook), a total lack of recognition or gratitude for any good they've done, and an overriding belief - despite the absence of any evidence to support it - that they're just here to screw us. The highlighted paragraph I agree with completely. The non-highlighted I disagree with strongly. I don't think many at all think they're after screwing us over. More so a case of maximising their profit by moving us to a place that we feel is extremely dangerous for our long-term future. I certainly don't have a problem with them making profit. I don't think anyone does...I'd suggest 99% are eternally grateful. I certainly am. But even still, the profit must be made without compromising us. I feel moving to Failsworth does for reasons I've outlined. I don't need to do that again. And it's made worse by the complete lack of interest into looking at how we could redevelop on a smaller scale. If it has been looked at and it shows the mass of difference in revenue streams and potential, then please TTA, make this info available! That isn't going to happen though...as they're not interested in that. Too many are happy to accept that...I'm not. And thus leaves me to conclude it's because they'll make far more out of moving us...regardless of the fact we'll be in an area where I don't believe fans will take an interest and some of ours that go now will also lose interest. If that's supposedly me being cynical towards TTA...well that's extremely soft!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 The highlighted paragraph I agree with completely. The non-highlighted I disagree with strongly. I don't think many at all think they're after screwing us over. More so a case of maximising their profit by moving us to a place that we feel is extremely dangerous for our long-term future. I certainly don't have a problem with them making profit. I don't think anyone does...I'd suggest 99% are eternally grateful. I certainly am. But even still, the profit must be made without compromising us. I feel moving to Failsworth does for reasons I've outlined. I don't need to do that again. And it's made worse by the complete lack of interest into looking at how we could redevelop on a smaller scale. If it has been looked at and it shows the mass of difference in revenue streams and potential, then please TTA, make this info available! That isn't going to happen though...as they're not interested in that. Too many are happy to accept that...I'm not. And thus leaves me to conclude it's because they'll make far more out of moving us...regardless of the fact we'll be in an area where I don't believe fans will take an interest and some of ours that go now will also lose interest. If that's supposedly me being cynical towards TTA...well that's extremely soft!!! Trust meeting tonight, I hope getting some (public) answers from TTA will be on the agenda... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 IIRC his paper wealth was down to £45m AFTER the tech stock market crash wiped most of his paper wealth out. He was worth a :censored:load until then. And I doubt many multi-millionaires keep their money in cash in the bank, it is one step up from keeping it in a sock beneath the bed. No doubt we all saw the tech crash, personally my only regret is that Corp didn't use his foreknowledge of it to short the market massively and become the £30m saviour that we now need. It's irrelevant given what happened to Torex afterwards. It wouldn't have been great to have had the Chairmnan arrested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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