Matt Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 It's Gruppenfuhrer anyroad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardlelatic Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Not negatives, just home truths Rick, you know as well as I do that something as important as discussing a potential ground move should have been held in the Rochdale Road End giving as many as possible a voice, instead they expected people to buy tickets to attend a school hall meeting. (I know the money was quite rightly refunded but people were greatly inconvenienced by having to travel tp BP for a ticket.) OWTB is a small percentage of fans - that's why you need to canvass at Boundary Park before a game to gain a greater cross-section - as I've already saud this could be built upon further by accessing the data-base and gauging opinion. The data-base has been live since 2005 so there'll be a hell of a lot of names and addresses on there that could be targeted by a dedicated mail-shot to gain wider opinion. Anyone who questions the club is immediately negative and that's why the Trust is such a self-important lame duck in so many fans eyes. Listen to what people are asking you to do or face increasing apathy. I explained that I have used Owetb to gage the reactions and thoughts of Fans, other trust members have spoken to different fans, ones who dont sit by a PC or used internet forum so therefore a different demographic of fans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) I beg your pardon???? you have used very strong idiotic desciptions there Paul, ones I take personally as you imply that my thoughts and wishes do not get met within the Trust !!!! To be honest Rick you're the biggest critic of the club and the way it is run I have come across, many of the club's failings you have highlighted to many individuals on here. You rang me to try and discredit a poster's posts on the breaking story about the move to Failsworth and YOU were the one who told me and Mark Corbett about the possible name change of the club. Then had the cheek to try and chastise me over the phone for going public with something that was too big to keep quiet. You know as well asi do there's much, much more I could disclose too. You haven't and never have been my only source within BP, trust me I know :censored:loads as to what is happening within the club at the moment - my source? Much more important than Barry Owen. I'm sick of two-faced attitudes, you can't have it both ways, you either want to worm your way into OAFC (2004) Limited or you want what's best for the club and your fellow fans. Say what you really think instead of being up Barry's arse. Grow some bollocks man! Too many of you on the trust get off on your own self-importance, I've invited you to gauge some mass GENUINE opinion on the proposed move but yet again there's excuses. Edited October 11, 2009 by oafcprozac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 "City being only 3 miles away is not really a matter, city fans travel from over the NW to go to games, us being 4 miles closer wouldnt change this. " alan hardy said that the move to failsworth would "open a new local market". as mention previously, once the novelty of a new stadium wears off, well be back to 4,000 die hards at home games..or even less, at the going rate this club is continuing to alienate the fans -its customers -through non marketing and lack of any customer awareness...past and present. i saw some pics yesterday in the paper, of darlington's stadium..bloody grand it is too. 25,000 seat and looking very swank. shame there are only 3,000 regulars there to enjoy it. whilst cittee are on this forever spending spree, and their fortunes seem to be on a rise, the threat of the casual supporter not getting off at failworth, but carrying on that tram(whenever that may be!) or bus another mile down the road is a non brainer.cheaper entrance costs..better class of football(did i say that!!!??? wash my gob out!) better atmosphere.. wake up...the coffee is going cold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 i saw some pics yesterday in the paper, of darlington's stadium..bloody grand it is too. 25,000 seat and looking very swank. Some would say it shows real ambition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardlelatic Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 To be honest Rick you're the biggest critic of the club and the way it is run I have come across, many of the club's failings you have highlighted to many individuals on here. You rang me to try and discredit a poster's posts on the breaking story about the move to Failsworth and YOU were the one who told me and Mark Corbett about the possible name change of the club. Then had the cheek to try and chastise me over the phone for going public with something that was too big to keep quiet. You know as well asi do there's much, much more I could disclose too. You haven't and never have been my only source within BP, trust me I know :censored:loads as to what is happening within the club at the moment - my source? Much more important than Barry Owen. I'm sick of two-faced attitudes, you can't have it both ways, you either want to worm your way into OAFC (2004) Limited or you want to what's best for the club and your fellow fans. Say what you really think instead of being up Barry's arse. Grow some bollocks man! Too many of you on the trust get off on your own self-importance, I've invited you to gauge some mass GENUINE opinion on the proposed move but yet again there's excuses. Nice Paul, cheers Self importance, if that was the case were is my recognition? The things I have helped with and done for the club since my return from Oz???? No-where because I dont ask or want them. I spend my time doing what I what I can for the Trust and the club with no ask of reponpense. I stand on no pedestal and you dont know the relationships I have with my collegues on the trust so dont dare state I have to grow some balls and stop trying to get up Barry ARSE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Nice Paul, cheers Self importance, if that was the case were is my recognition? The things I have helped with and done for the club since my return from Oz???? Now where becuase I dont ask or want them. I spend my time doing what I what I can for the Trust and the club with no ask of reponpense. I stand on no pedestal and you dont know the relationships I have with my collegues on the trust so dont dare state I have to gbrow some balls and stop trying to get up Barryas ARSE The Trust is fragmented, you know it I know it. The club's board have little or no interest in the Trust. The owners have a lot of time for Barry I know but see the Trust as a spanner in the works and TTA would probably allow Barry his seat at the top table with or without his Trust connections. I know for a fact there's a Trust director that through other commitments cannot make Thursday meetings yet the meetings go ahead regardless - surely every effort should be made to accomodate your fellow Board members? They way I see it, is that there are two camps within Trust Oldham - Those in the know and those who are increasingly pissed off at being left in the dark. Whilst others follow their own agenda. Whether it is intentional or not you leap to Barry's defence at every opportunity. Perhaps my fellow fans should voice our concerns with those who are left in the dark - that way we get our concerns raised with the club independent from the Trust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 The Trust is fragmented, you know it I know it. The club's board have little or no interest in the Trust. The owners have a lot of time for Barry I know but see the Trust as a spanner in the works and TTA would probably allow Barry his seat at the top table with or without his Trust connections. I know for a fact there's a Trust director that through other commitments cannot make Thursday meetings yet the meetings go ahead regardless - surely every effort should be made to accomodate your fellow Board members? They way I see it, is that there are two camps within Trust Oldham - Those in the know and those who are increasingly pissed off at being left in the dark. Whilst others follow their own agenda. Whether it is intentional or not you leap to Barry's defence at every opportunity. Perhaps my fellow fans should voice our concerns with those who are left in the dark - that way we get our concerns raised with the club independent from the Trust? Perhaps the Oldham Chronicle, Advertiser or Manchester Evening News would be willing to come on board and finance a mass survey on the move and the way the club is being run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Perhaps the Oldham Chronicle, Advertiser or Manchester Evening News would be willing to come on board and finance a mass survey on the move and the way the club is being run? Maybe I could use my connections at Sky to publicise our misgivings more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardlelatic Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 The Trust is fragmented, you know it I know it. The club's board have little or no interest in the Trust. The owners have a lot of time for Barry I know but see the Trust as a spanner in the works and TTA would probably allow Barry his seat at the top table with or without his Trust connections. I know for a fact there's a Trust director that through other commitments cannot make Thursday meetings yet the meetings go ahead regardless - surely every effort should be made to accomodate your fellow Board members? They way I see it, is that there are two camps within Trust Oldham - Those in the know and those who are increasingly pissed off at being left in the dark. Whilst others follow their own agenda. Whether it is intentional or not you leap to Barry's defence at every opportunity. Perhaps my fellow fans should voice our concerns with those who are left in the dark - that way we get our concerns raised with the club independent from the Trust? I take from this your refer to Dave Hudson??? Well Dave would have difficulty attending any meeting outside of a Sat and this day he sets aside for Football. Every person on the trust is kept in the loop on matters by two differnet ways. Dave's work committments now mean that he does more OT a month than working paid hours, so working from 7:30 to 9pm Sunday to Friday, doesnt leave much time for much else ! Every accomodation is made for meetings, ranging from picking up people and taking them home or changing the date occassionally. Dave is not left in the dark, he knows of what is said as he recieve the same group e-mail we all do on announcements ect. There is more than 2 camps in the Trust, we are all individuals and therefore have different ideas on how things should work, but when a decision needs to be made we take a vote and go with the majority and that rule of thumb applies to all process, the trust need to be united behind a decision and we do that like any other group or organsisation by giving persons a free vote. There are many issues I dont agree with but I take the lead of the trust if its for the good of the club, we all have equal say on matters within meetings, many directors have recently disagreed with matters but no -one has asked to note there objections or abstain from the vote ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) My proposal, have the turnstile marked For Failsworth, and Against and see the numbers going through. There should be a few turnstiles not marked, and these can then be opened depending on the way majority is going. Let eveyone know in advance, ask them to come a few minutes earlier, even though most won't some will. I do agree that prozacs's suggestion of a poll at a mattch is the best way, even as the person with the rep for doing polls on here! I do have to do surveys for work, and confirm with other posts it has to be quick. Pens and things will mean a delay and people not being asked, the maximum votes gives the best result It has to be quick and painless and one word answers. At a match, there simply is not the time for any more than 1 question, unless you give a quick bit of more detailed survey to be completed after entry. This might be reasons that indicate a fear or on baseless grounds. Give a survery out at the time. You won't get as many but you will know the result, and the ones you get back will indicate a reason. Edited October 12, 2009 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardlelatic Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Maybe I could use my connections at Sky to publicise our misgivings more? Paul, at present you are out of work and I would hope and imagine still taking things easy after your illness, I welcome any help and assistant in collating information or devising systems for fans. Many hands make light work as they say, but I ask that you dont over stretch yourself and make yourself ill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) The Trust long ago came to the end of its' useful life and that's not just my opinion but the opinion of many Latics fans. I think in future rather than go through the Trust I will rasie my concerns directly with the club or through the media, that way we will at least get heard. The Trust in essence was a great idea, but there's no way I would have stood out in the pissing rain week after week with a bucket if I'd known all our hard work would be flushed down the drain. Anyhow I'll leave it at that, we'll never agree that the Trust is working in the best interests of its fellow fans because it simply isn't. A re-think is needed because all the Trust does in its present form is disaffect and confuse people as to what its purpose is. I know the Trust has a formal constitution of aims and objectives. When was the last time that was properly adhered to in the interests of representing the fans who paid for it to be set up? Edited October 11, 2009 by oafcprozac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I know the trust's own website was woefully underused but that's gone now and this has become the most significant Latics on line forum. In those circumstances I think the trust directors, if they are going tp come on heee and explain policy, need to do it clearlyu, consistently and, most importantly, in their own names. Reading the various and numeorus threads is becoming like intruding into a personal debate as there are obviously a number of posters who know each other but are not known to all. It is imposssible to be 100% cconsistent by firing off replies to various postings and it is leading to entirely counterproductive deabte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) Paul, at present you are out of work and I would hope and imagine still taking things easy after your illness, I welcome any help and assistant in collating information or devising systems for fans. Many hands make light work as they say, but I ask that you dont over stretch yourself and make yourself ill I'm not out of work, I returned to work in mid_August so I'm just off work at the moment but probably back in after half-term. Thanks for the concern, but i'm on the mend. Carl's in the process of putting something together I believe - as he's the expert in data and collation he's obviously the right man for the job. Edited October 11, 2009 by oafcprozac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 I'm not out of work, I returned to work in mid_August so I'm just off work at the moment but probably back in after half-term. Thanks for the concern, but i'm on the mend. Carl's in the process of putting something together I believe - as he's the expert in data and collation he's obviously the right man for the job. I would love to get involved in a representative group of fans, but having a young family and the career choices of both me and my wife I simply can't devote the amount of time some of you in the Trust do. I hope it simply isn't all in vain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldhamathleticfailsworth Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 All good points regarding asking questions and gaging public opinions, this in part has already been done but I'm sure over the coming weeks more questions will be asked at the ground on match days. In regards to Failsworth not being the right place to move, in many fans eyes there isnt a right place to move it is just Boundary Park were we have to stay. The move to Failsworth was not the only option for the club, as I understand the due process several pieces of land were indentified for a possible site for OAFC, Bp current, planning restrictions on site mean that the possible continued revenue to the club would be minimised due to the sale for house only creating a single saleable asset and not a revenue stream from commercial projects and facilities. A n Other site in Oldham, ground work survey showed that there was underground holes from opening mining years ago that would hinder any foundations and the cost to taken to make this land suitable for such constructions that we need to build would be expensive. The site was also near open brick works which made any developmet difficult A n Other site in Oldham, this area had poor transport links to a from to make planning permision very difficult and unlikely. The club looked at the British Aerospace site a number of years ago, the cost of the site was a lot more than the cost of the site is today, the proposed and planned transport improvements that the site will have in 2 years along with other factors make this site STAND out above any other. TTA know that they cant redevelop BP in a way that would make the club secure financially in the time scape that another project would. We all know the club need to start making money 7 days a week, almost 18 hours a day, this new site in Failsworth would allow the club to do this. City being only 3 miles away is not really a matter, city fans travel from over the NW to go to games, us being 4 miles closer wouldnt change this. My proposal to the club on behalf of the trust is this, Reduced ST prices at the new stadium, compensating the cost the 'fan' now would travel to the games, off setted from the increased revenue that would be created from the increased facilities at the new ground, ie, bars, restuarants, gaming areas etc. Introduction of a 5 AND 10 game ST for ALL FANS OF FOOTBALL, to encourage any other fan who already has a ST to another team, (City, MANURE, FC UNITES, ROCHDALE,etc) to come to games while there team is away. Family stand were parents can take there kids, cheaper ST for 1 adult 2 kids, 2 adults 3 kids etc.. this area would have childrens play area,bar, another other facilities that would encourage families to arrive at the ground at mid day to spend more time and money at the ground on match days. What we also need is a fans bar, large tv's - guest ale stands, retro memorabilia stalls, etc so 'the lads' want to get to the ground early doors to get the beers in instead of having a beer at a pub near the ground and spending money outside the club. Some good points , a some good ideas for thr future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 If it's not to be Failsworth, and it's not to be BP, there where is it to be? People keep coming up with potential sites (Coal Pit land - green belt; Hollinwood gas works - contaminated and with some local nimbys trying to get village green status; sites with no surrounding land - park road (?) retail park; sites woth limited access - that land behind alex park - might even be green belt too; beal valley - jeez that muts be the furthest bit of oldham from a motorway!). Perhaps if people don't want failsworth, they should come up with a site that can get planning (write to OMBC and ask them), is available, has room to make other revenue streams and has road and metrolink transport links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Perhaps if people don't want failsworth, they should come up with a site that can get planning (write to OMBC and ask them), is available, has room to make other revenue streams and has road and metrolink transport links. Boundary Park has everything but metrolink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 FAILSWORTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Boundary Park has everything but metrolink AND............................................................................. ............... Without selling it there isn't enough money to redevelop it If the Council hadn't buggered around with the planning permission and instead granted it 3 months earlier as they should have done, we wouldn't be having this debate today, as a sale of the land had been agreed and a builder for the new Broadway stand was on board and a price agreed. BUT............................................................................. ................ that has gone now so we have to move on to plan????? B/C/D or whatever it is, or whatever it takes. Do any of you really think that with the experience that IH brings to the table with his knowledge of the town, these other sites that have been mentioned haven't been considered? We can debate the move to Failsworth all you like. At the moment, unless someone dramatically comes up with a realistic, cost effective alternative, then the options are stay at BP and slide further, or move to a puprose built new stadium at the Lancaster Club that has additional facilities, generating additional income that allows us to either at worst stand still or better still progress. Personally, I would rather stay at BP. I love the place. I don't give a frig that it is 3 sided. We should as a club and as fans turn that to our advantage, 3 sided fortress and all that. At the same time, I want us to progress. I've been to other grounds over the years and seen the better facilities on offer, the fans more involved around the ground on a match day and know that we need to do more, if we are ever to make that progress. It is for that reason I've come to the conclusion that we have little option but to move. I don't want to, but I know that if I still want to be watching football in my home time in 20 years, we are left with little or no choice. I want my son and his son to be watching football in this town when my time has gone. I wanted that to be at BP, but if it can't then so be it. As far as I care, you can do all the surveys you want at the turnstiles. They aren't going to change anything. It isn't about oh we'll stay at BP because the fans have spoken, it will be about we have taken the decision to move to the Lancaster club because it will give us the best chance of creating stability and generating additional income streams and improving the match day experience. If you want to do surveys, then by all means do so, but let them be about what we can do in the short term at BP. How can we get the fans singing off the same him sheet for the benefit of the team. We cant do much about improving the facilities at BP before the move, well apart from getting Azzure to buy more pies, but we can sure as hell try to unite the fans. I sit in the Chaddy, but to be honest, I'd sit anywhere to support the team. My mrs says she doesn't want to move, but if we could get everyone together, I'm sure I could persuade her if need be. We should all be together, not split up between the 2 ends. Lets do something positive rather than all this negative stuff. Thanks to the manager, the players are now doing it on the pitch, we as fans need to do our bit off it. Cheers, Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 You know Harry who owns what at BP seems to be quite complicated at the moment with talk of holding companies and such as... but in my simple mind, is it not possible for the TTA to put up the land and the club as it is up for sale... Is that not a possibility (as risky as it might be) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 AND............................................................................. ............... Without selling it there isn't enough money to redevelop it If the Council hadn't buggered around with the planning permission and instead granted it 3 months earlier as they should have done, we wouldn't be having this debate today, as a sale of the land had been agreed and a builder for the new Broadway stand was on board and a price agreed. BUT............................................................................. ................ that has gone now so we have to move on to plan????? B/C/D or whatever it is, or whatever it takes. Do any of you really think that with the experience that IH brings to the table with his knowledge of the town, these other sites that have been mentioned haven't been considered? We can debate the move to Failsworth all you like. At the moment, unless someone dramatically comes up with a realistic, cost effective alternative, then the options are stay at BP and slide further, or move to a puprose built new stadium at the Lancaster Club that has additional facilities, generating additional income that allows us to either at worst stand still or better still progress. Personally, I would rather stay at BP. I love the place. I don't give a frig that it is 3 sided. We should as a club and as fans turn that to our advantage, 3 sided fortress and all that. At the same time, I want us to progress. I've been to other grounds over the years and seen the better facilities on offer, the fans more involved around the ground on a match day and know that we need to do more, if we are ever to make that progress. It is for that reason I've come to the conclusion that we have little option but to move. I don't want to, but I know that if I still want to be watching football in my home time in 20 years, we are left with little or no choice. I want my son and his son to be watching football in this town when my time has gone. I wanted that to be at BP, but if it can't then so be it. As far as I care, you can do all the surveys you want at the turnstiles. They aren't going to change anything. It isn't about oh we'll stay at BP because the fans have spoken, it will be about we have taken the decision to move to the Lancaster club because it will give us the best chance of creating stability and generating additional income streams and improving the match day experience. If you want to do surveys, then by all means do so, but let them be about what we can do in the short term at BP. How can we get the fans singing off the same him sheet for the benefit of the team. We cant do much about improving the facilities at BP before the move, well apart from getting Azzure to buy more pies, but we can sure as hell try to unite the fans. I sit in the Chaddy, but to be honest, I'd sit anywhere to support the team. My mrs says she doesn't want to move, but if we could get everyone together, I'm sure I could persuade her if need be. We should all be together, not split up between the 2 ends. Lets do something positive rather than all this negative stuff. Thanks to the manager, the players are now doing it on the pitch, we as fans need to do our bit off it. Cheers, Harry I know you are very close to this project Harry, but the survey would simply not be a yes or no to the move. The fans would be able to air their opinions for and against the move, air their misgivings and then with the lapsed contingent from the data-base we could find out just why people are not attending allowing the club to form a picture just where its fanbase is on the move and whether they will attract the stayways back. If we have to move I'll give it a go, but I know many have said they will not go to Failsworth, I'm not so sure we will be able to replace the fans we lose from the new ground's area. The club need to start convincing people the move WILL happen and it is best for the long term sustainability of OAFC and not just TTA's legacy to their familes $$$$$$$.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 You know Harry who owns what at BP seems to be quite complicated at the moment with talk of holding companies and such as... but in my simple mind, is it not possible for the TTA to put up the land and the club as it is up for sale... Is that not a possibility (as risky as it might be) ? You know what, yes the land is in the name of 1 company and the club is the club - oldham Athletic (2004) Ltd. The way I see and understand things, there is no reason why TTA could not sell both together or sell them separately. However, having spoken with the Simons, I know that they want to finish what they started. Their intentions were good, but they feel that they have been let down time and time again. Things just don't seem to progress as they want. The planning permission for BP being the best example that ppl will understand. A number of people on here don't seem to trust tta and that was the case from day 1 at the Council. A little story that is not so well known is that SC went into a meeting with the suites at white elephant towers, with a view to acquiring the ground back. The suites whilst keen to dispose of the asset didn't trust the 3 wise men from america and asked how they could trust that they would not do some dodgy deal and disappear within 5 years. Well, all the suites (there were 4 but I won't name them) have all left their Council employment and you know what the only people who were in that meeting who are still around 6 years on are SC and IH. Yet people still don't trust them despite them investing over £12million to date and little likelyhood of making a profit. Not that I, and others, would begrudge them 1. Cheers, Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 You know what, yes the land is in the name of 1 company and the club is the club - oldham Athletic (2004) Ltd. The way I see and understand things, there is no reason why TTA could not sell both together or sell them separately. However, having spoken with the Simons, I know that they want to finish what they started. Their intentions were good, but they feel that they have been let down time and time again. Things just don't seem to progress as they want. The planning permission for BP being the best example that ppl will understand. A number of people on here don't seem to trust tta and that was the case from day 1 at the Council. A little story that is not so well known is that SC went into a meeting with the suites at white elephant towers, with a view to acquiring the ground back. The suites whilst keen to dispose of the asset didn't trust the 3 wise men from america and asked how they could trust that they would not do some dodgy deal and disappear within 5 years. Well, all the suites (there were 4 but I won't name them) have all left their Council employment and you know what the only people who were in that meeting who are still around 6 years on are SC and IH. Yet people still don't trust them despite them investing over £12million to date and little likelyhood of making a profit. Not that I, and others, would begrudge them 1. Cheers, Harry It is widely believed that the land is held by Brass Bank and the planning applications and plans through Frank Whittle were all lodged in that name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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