opinions4u Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 It will be interesting to see if the coalition survives a "no" vote. Afterall, what benefit is there to the Lib Dems of remaining unpopular in power with no chance of the major change they wanted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I think it will. Both the yes and no camps have been at pains to enforce the idea that this campaign is not along party lines. Yes most Lib Dems will be in the yes camp, but the other two parties are split, particularly Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 It is bloody tricky Garcon, I can see this being defeated to a worse extent than the congestion charge and the No campaign claiming a great victory - "The public have no appetite for change" or "What we have is the best system and the public can see that" - both of these are very wrong statements. If yes were to win I think it would be a step down the right road but I can not see it happening, it is probably at the wrong time, when people are struggling to pay bills the last thing on their mind is electoral reform. Yet perversely for the very same reasons reform is exactly what is needed at this time. Sadly though it will be kicked into the long grass and forgotten about for decades only with a resounding "we asked the people and they firmly rejected it". Neither side has really put their case forward properly - "The BNP benefit" or "It makes MPs work harder" aren't really arguments that hold any water. Shame really that this important question is able to be glossed over so easily, pretty much like most things in modern politics that isn't straight forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 It has to be said, the most enduring feature of both campaigns has been their utter banality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I could well see a yes win on a very low turnout, which could be very interesting, it could even encourage the no-ers not to let it through parliament. Now that would :censored: the coalition good and proper. I just think that the only people who can be arsed to vote are more likely to be in favour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I could well see a yes win on a very low turnout, which could be very interesting, it could even encourage the no-ers not to let it through parliament. Now that would :censored: the coalition good and proper. I just think that the only people who can be arsed to vote are more likely to be in favour. They need to run this poll on the AV basis where you can express a second preference from the choices given. Your second vote is mandatory and has equal weighting to your first vote. That would ensure fair play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 They need to run this poll on the AV basis where you can express a second preference from the choices given. Your second vote is mandatory and has equal weighting to your first vote. That would ensure fair play. It would also ensure a rare trip by me to my neighbourhood turf accountant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 The best argument for a yes vote is it might be the road to PR... but AV isn't right... In fact I think its worse than FPTP... So that is why I voted No. I can't vote for something I think is wrong just because it might lead to something good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafc88 Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) Not a clue what i'm gonna vote as there seems to be no clear best choice (i don't suppose there ever is but with this it seems really split 50/50). I'm just edging towards yes just because it will show that we are interested in making changes to the political system in this country, as others have pointed out, becuase if we don't then we might not get another oppourtunity to do so again for a good while as those in power might think we are happy with the way everything is. At this stage though it could be just how i feel on the day that will decide my vote. Edited April 18, 2011 by Oafc88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Firstly, the idea that a vote for AV is a vote for Clegg and no is a vote for Cameron is a bit short termist really, so I’m not sure why people think that’s a great idea. I read last week that all of the comparisons in support of FPTP seem to be sporting ones, which again I don’t actually think is great. For example, yes one person/team can win something one week but another team can win it the next, so who is actually the better team? If one team plays crap and doesn’t do anything, then gets a dodgy penalty and scores, are they truly the better team? Against AV, it could lead in a rise of influence of minority parties such as EDL, BNP but it could also mean that decent people get a better say to. The question is, do we think the UK democracy is robust and dynamic enough to do this without getting into the problems of 1930’s Germany. Currently yes, but will it be the case if something really bad goes wrong, probably not. As for FPTP and one man one vote, I don’t think that is true as my vote has never really counted for anything. I have lived in 5 different constituencies and my MP has been Labour every time, which I have had no real choice over. AV would give me a vote as would PR. At the end of the day I am undecided really but am probably in favour of AV by 1 or 2%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 (edited) Firstly, the idea that a vote for AV is a vote for Clegg and no is a vote for Cameron is a bit short termist really, so I’m not sure why people think that’s a great idea. I read last week that all of the comparisons in support of FPTP seem to be sporting ones, which again I don’t actually think is great. For example, yes one person/team can win something one week but another team can win it the next, so who is actually the better team? If one team plays crap and doesn’t do anything, then gets a dodgy penalty and scores, are they truly the better team? Against AV, it could lead in a rise of influence of minority parties such as EDL, BNP but it could also mean that decent people get a better say to. The question is, do we think the UK democracy is robust and dynamic enough to do this without getting into the problems of 1930’s Germany. Currently yes, but will it be the case if something really bad goes wrong, probably not. As for FPTP and one man one vote, I don’t think that is true as my vote has never really counted for anything. I have lived in 5 different constituencies and my MP has been Labour every time, which I have had no real choice over. AV would give me a vote as would PR. At the end of the day I am undecided really but am probably in favour of AV by 1 or 2%. Your vote does count... Its just the majority of people disagree with your choice. Welcome to democracy Edited April 20, 2011 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I think the fact that this topic has been on the forum for ages and only attracted 16 votes says it all. Apathy wins! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I think the fact that this topic has been on the forum for ages and only attracted 16 votes says it all. Apathy wins! No threshold means only the percentage counts. The answer is still no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Your vote does count... Its just the majority of people disagree with your choice. Welcome to democracy Well my vote counts a lot less than under PR or AV and when compared to a marginal seat, doesn't really count at all. Though saying that, PR did well in Germany in the 1930's..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Well my vote counts a lot less than under PR or AV and when compared to a marginal seat, doesn't really count at all. Though saying that, PR did well in Germany in the 1930's..... So you get two bites at the cherry and someone else gets one bite... Well that sounds fair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Strange smiley placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 So you get two bites at the cherry and someone else gets one bite... Well that sounds fair At least you get the chance to have a bite of the cherry, rather than a token nibble of a fake cherry along with thousands of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 My vote was decided for me by my housemate who through away all the polling cards. Guess I had better just get use to whichever one wins. I was leaning on the side of yes - simply because I really make it known how badly I dislike the torys because i could vote against them twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 My vote was decided for me by my housemate who through away all the polling cards. Guess I had better just get use to whichever one wins. I was leaning on the side of yes - simply because I really make it known how badly I dislike the torys because i could vote against them twice. Whoops - you don't need the polling card to vote. You don't need ID, you just turn up and tell them who you are, or who the person whose vote you want to use is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Well my vote counts a lot less than under PR or AV and when compared to a marginal seat, doesn't really count at all. Though saying that, PR did well in Germany in the 1930's..... Yes and no - unless your vote is the last one counted in a tie, it doesn't affect the outcome at all whatever the system so is equally worthless. It has been decades since any one person's vote changed a Parliamentary seat, so no person's vote made a difference to the government that followed. The Germany argument can go either way, Hitler formed a coalition and remodelled the constitution. He could have done so with a coalition formed under PR or FPTP. The only defence against similar is to oppose a collectivist government of either the left or the right, as democracy means nothing when government is so huge that most of it's policies as fixed and run by committee anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Even talk of nibbling cherries doesn't seem to have roused the masses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldhamSheridan Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Whoops - you don't need the polling card to vote. You don't need ID, you just turn up and tell them who you are, or who the person whose vote you want to use is... ...and in my local area you can vote for dead people and more than once. More people voted than were on the list for the locality. By fifty. Beat that for turnout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 This is how AV works. From 6:53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
help_shiny Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I'll be voting no because it's gash. I'd be up for PR but this... nah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I'll be voting no because it's gash. I'd be up for PR but this... nah But this is a stepping stone to PR, if we turn this down the powers that be will say none of us are interested in reform and are all happy with the way things are. Political reform will be kicked into the long grass for generations. AV isn't great but it is better than FPTP - just look at the Canadian result today! Saying No to AV is saying no to reform longer term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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