Corporal_Jones Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Another gem. You are doing exactly what you accuse Harry Dowd of doing. Nobody is saying"give up the idea of promotion". Still, like the other day, if it suits your purpose, you will make conclusions for others just to fit with your paper thin argument. Let's go round again eh Corp? I recognise that nobody has baldly stated this, but I know what I'm hearing and reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 The one point I will take issue with is the suggestion that there is no plan, or this plan is just some kind of pr tool peddled to gulible fans. The TTA are hardened businessmen who have made a fortune. As someone who owns their own businesses, let me assure you that there is absolutely no way that the TTA have not got a business plan to turn this club into a self-sufficient and successful entity. I don't need to see it to know the bones of what it will contain, and as a private limited company they have no obligation to share it (if they did I'm sure the podantic on here would pick the bones out of every sentence for double-meanings). I guess that requires some faith that the people running our club know what needs to be done to make our club great again. Having seen the TTA in action and their track record at building sustainable businesses, I have faith that it will work and they know better than me who as a fan just wants us to win promotion playing fantastic football and with the best players in the league. Again, all I can say is that I don't doubt that TTA have a business plan, and wish to make the club as self-sufficient as possible. All I am cautious about is in assuming that this plan is necessarily geared towards football in a higher division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspiral_Carpet Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 This is simply an excuse. The Oldham public does respond to ambition, as the more successful of recent seasons has proved, but it takes time and consistency to win them over in sufficient numbers. As has also been proved, raising people's hopes, only to dash them with mediocrity the very next season, is no way nto expand a fan base. I realise that keeping a decent squad together guarantees nothing-but there is, as we have seen, little chance of getting anywhere on the basis of continual disruption. Ok so tell me about the massive Crowds under Dowie when we had a multi-millionaire bank-rolling us with his version of short term success? We played good stuff then, had the best that we could get (biggest wage bill in League one and the highest paid manager); were successful on the pitch - so presumably we were getting big Crowds as the missing 200k flooded back. The answer is that we weren't Corp. You will no doubt see this as an indicator that I am saying "give up". I'm not. Far from it since I have demonstrated several times that there are clear indicators of ambition from TTA and real progress in footballing terms since Administration. I'm just being realistic and showing yet again why your argument is based on piss and wind rather than fact and substance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I get it: disagreeing with 'the chosen' makes you a troll. You've done it before, to others on other boards lads. Makes no odds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspiral_Carpet Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I recognise that nobody has baldly stated this, but I know what I'm hearing and reading. I suspect that you haven't got a clue what you are hearing and reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookers87 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) This is simply an excuse. The Oldham public does respond to ambition, as the more successful of recent seasons has proved, but it takes time and consistency to win them over in sufficient numbers. As has also been proved, raising people's hopes, only to dash them with mediocrity the very next season, is no way nto expand a fan base. I realise that keeping a decent squad together guarantees nothing-but there is, as we have seen, little chance of getting anywhere on the basis of continual disruption. I think if you read it properly corporal I have said that the TTA are looking at other routes to get the income to break-even rather than putting all the eggs in one basket and 'rely' on the oldham public responding in vast numbers. Yes the crowds will rise, but that follows from taking option 1 rather than pursuing the better business option of 80/20 option 2 over option 1. Also, before you try making out that my post says we forgo promotion over building off-field activities - it doesn't! Businessmen like TTA don't take on challenges to be mediocre and stay in the same division. The plans for the stadium should be enough (as something that is in the public arena) to confirm this. A stadium like that isn't being built for 3rd division football. I just hope you have not so entrenched yourself in your argument that you don't/can't see other view points? After all this board is for debate rather than picking points out of context. Edited February 5, 2008 by lookers87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 No Corporal. You don't get it. In fact you're unbelievably far from getting it. Further than a reallly really far thing sat on a planet in a galaxy millions of light years away and getting ever further away with every second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) Ok so tell me about the massive Crowds under Dowie when we had a multi-millionaire bank-rolling us with his version of short term success? We played good stuff then, had the best that we could get (biggest wage bill in League one and the highest paid manager); were successful on the pitch - so presumably we were getting big Crowds as the missing 200k flooded back. The answer is that we weren't Corp. You will no doubt see this as an indicator that I am saying "give up". I'm not. Far from it since I have demonstrated several times that there are clear indicators of ambition from TTA and real progress in footballing terms since Administration. I'm just being realistic and showing yet again why your argument is based on piss and wind rather than fact and substance. I haven't claimed that we had massive crowd under Dowie, just that, due to what was happening on the pitch, they were bigger than under Ritchie (as were crowds during the Ronnie season and once we got going last season). They would have continued to grow if we had been able to push on and get promotion instead of being plunged into crisis. (Awaits spurious assertion that we cannot afford to 'push on', as the same thing as under CM will happen. As everybody knows, all clubs of a similar size to Latics who seriously try for promotion are quickly plunged into financial meltdown...) Edited February 5, 2008 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I think if you read it properly corporal I have said that the TTA are looking at other routes to get the income to break-even rather than putting all the eggs in one basket and 'rely' on the oldham public responding in vast numbers. Yes the crowds will rise, but that follows from taking option 2 rather than pursuing the better business option of 80/20 option 2 over option 1. Also, before you try making out that my post says we forgo promotion over building off-field activities - it doesn't! Businessmen like TTA don't take on challenges to be mediocre. I just hope you have not so entrenched yourself in your argument that you don't/can't see other view points? After all this board is for debate rather than picking points out of context. I'm not sure that they would regard stability in this division as mediocrity, especially when you consider the state of the club when they took over-and when you consider that it now appears to be the height of many Latics fans' ambitions. I see the other viewpoints (there is actually only one) only too clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 No Corporal. You don't get it. In fact you're unbelievably far from getting it. Further than a reallly really far thing sat on a planet in a galaxy millions of light years away and getting ever further away with every second. In future I will make sure that I concede every last point to the cabal. Will that suit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 how about conclude this veeerrryyy tired theory of yours by your action plan to bring success and prosperity to oldham athletic then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspiral_Carpet Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I haven't claimed that we had massive crowd under Dowie, just that, due to what was happening on the pitch, they were bigger than under Ritchie (as were crowds during the Ronnie season and once we got going last season). They would have continued to grow if we had been able to push on and get promotion instead of being plunged into crisis. (Awaits spurious assertion that we cannot afford to 'push on', as the same thing as under CM will happen. As everybody knows, all clubs of a similar size to Latics who seriously try for promotion are quickly plunged into financial meltdown...) Are we getting somewhere then since your main point is now in shreds by your own admission? Crowds under Dowie weren't massive when we were playing good football with a talented squad and by massive, I mean hitting that break-even average that is needed now. The facts don't fit your argument and the rest is pure hypothesis from someone who has repeatedly shown a lack of a grasp of modern football reality. Maybe the crowds would have got bigger if we had repeated the results in the following Season but then again, we know why we got that success on the pitch but you don't want to mention that do you? Once again, you fail to see the progress made but I'm not really surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfatjoe1 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Nine pages!! What is the record??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookers87 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I'm not sure that they would regard stability in this division as mediocrity, especially when you consider the state of the club when they took over-and when you consider that it now appears to be the height of many Latics fans' ambitions. I see the other viewpoints (there is actually only one) only too clearly. 'Also, before you try making out that my post says we forgo promotion over building off-field activities - it doesn't! Businessmen like TTA don't take on challenges to be mediocre and stay in the same division. The plans for the stadium should be enough (as something that is in the public arena) to confirm this. A stadium like that isn't being built for 3rd division football' I'm pretty sure most of the points I've seen by a vast majority on here aren't that fans are settling for this league, I actually take those points to be a view that it shouldn't be promotion at all costs (not that that is your argument either I believe), but more an acceptance that if it doesn't happen this season it won't be too far away. I'd be far happier being mid-table in the championship than div 3, but would that be enough for the public of oldham...who knows? I do remember that in our final premiership season the attendances dropped on the previous season as a number got 'bored' with the fact that we weren't on double cup runs every year. But by having a ground/facilities that pay the bills it becomes easier to speculate. Believe me - how easier is it to place bets of £1000 pound when you know you can lose it without it effecting your day-to-day income? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) Going off-topic slightly (cos quite frankly I'm bored) ... Edit: new thread started about Millionaire owners... Edited February 5, 2008 by garcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I am still at a loss as to why you continue to insist on refuting allegations that I have not made. My opponents in this debate are actually the ones who are guilty of not thinking long-term, in that, by giving up on the idea of promotion as soon as possible they more or less guarantee that the future stability you speak of will be stability in this division. I see no reason to believe on current evidence that, even should 'the plan' proceed as intended, and the figures you quote become a reality (and I sincerely hope they do), more excuses will not be found as to why we can't afford a promotion-winning squad. That's what happens when you get into a cycle of excuses. We are all more than aware of the bad times we've been through, but for most of the past ten years we have been no worse off financially than the host of similar and smaller-sized clubs who have sailed past us. As I say, there are legions of former Latics diehards who sadly observe this fact from bar stools or armchairs at greater or lesser distances from Boundary Park. It also seems to have escaped people's notice that, in the event of relegation from this division (never to be dismissed when you're seven points from the bottom four, as Shez, if nobody else, seems to recognise), 'the plan' will be adjusted to deal with the reality of life in the divsion below. Should we climb out of it, that is what will be regarded as success. In other words, getting back to where we have been for the past ten years. Are you TGOBM, by the way? No I'm not. See my username. Although it appears that I have been accused of GHOST writting for Alan Hardy today. I've made my point to you as clearly as I can. Obviously you and I will continue to have a different point of view. Only time will tell who will be proved write. For now though I don't intend to to and fro over another 20 posts to come back with the same end point that we continue to disagree. Cheers, Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 My opponents in this debate are actually the ones who are guilty of not thinking long-term... Are you sure? Are you positively sure about that? You're wrong - I'm not even sure how you could percieve it as so either. That's enough from me - you've been making stuff up for the last 24hrs, that's to my knowledge. The quote above is the last straw... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I'm not in a minority. All I am is an unofficial representative in the BP stands of the 200,000 Oldhamers who see no reason to ever set foot in Boundary Park when they can watch far better football at a fraction of the cost. That's a majority. I meant you are in the minority on the debate which is chundering on here. Not the entire fanbase (including fairweather fans). Which reinforces some folks suggestions that you're obviously not seeing or reading things properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 See this where you’ve all been? As I’ve missed this, can I summarise from my skim through without bickering? CJ believes that the best financial interests of the club are served by increasing our operating current losses in the short – medium term. He believes that this investment would more than pay for itself as the investment on better players and keeping those good players we have would generate more income through higher attendances and promotions. This isn’t a ridiculous basic position. There are several things that need to considered before going down that road. 1) What is the probability that higher losses will result in more attractive football and better results? 2) If It works out that higher losses achieve the above, will the crowd increase be sufficient eventually to cover the initial losses 3) What are the probabilities that an improvement in results will be sufficient to gain and secure promotion? 4) Will the extra income from playing in and securing a position in a higher division be sufficient to compensate for the initial losses and subsequent higher spending The above raise show that there is no guarantee that higher spending now holds a strong likelihood of a financial return and the positive cycle of success. This makes it a gamble. If we win the gamble we are at a higher level of football with a large and sustainable income. If we lose this then we would have increased our operating losses and debts to no purpose, and doing this on a large enough scale must threaten the future of the club. Corp must admit that there would be a point at which increasing our losses would be unwise. My question is, how many thousands of pounds per week does he advise TTA to increase their losses by in order to gain the virtuous circle he seeks, in order to give a reasonable certainty of success but without overextending the club and threatening it’s existence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leezyverpunk Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I have the answer to all of your problems - win or lose, have a booze! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) how about conclude this veeerrryyy tired theory of yours by your action plan to bring success and prosperity to oldham athletic then? I haven't got an action plan. I have never claimed to have an action plan. I have, however, wondered if the club has an action plan for the football side of things. Edited February 5, 2008 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Are we getting somewhere then since your main point is now in shreds by your own admission? Crowds under Dowie weren't massive when we were playing good football with a talented squad and by massive, I mean hitting that break-even average that is needed now. The facts don't fit your argument and the rest is pure hypothesis from someone who has repeatedly shown a lack of a grasp of modern football reality. Maybe the crowds would have got bigger if we had repeated the results in the following Season but then again, we know why we got that success on the pitch but you don't want to mention that do you? Once again, you fail to see the progress made but I'm not really surprised. Where have I admitted any such thing? For somebody who takes the 'Rome wasn't built in a day' line, you seem to have a lot of difficulty in grasping the fact that you can't drastically expand a fanbase overnight. You can expand one gradually, however-but not, as has already been proved, by raising the hopes of the fans only to let them down at the very next turn. How many more times do I have to say that I do see progress under TTA? It is just that none of it has taken place on the football side, as our current league position illustrates perfectly. In football terms we are one of the most stagnant clubs in the country. This is hardly the most controversial of points that could be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I haven't got an action plan. I have never claimed to have an action plan. I have, however, wondered if the club has an action plan for the football side of things. Oh I'm absolutely sure the club just has a "Well, if we win, we win... if we lose we lose" kind of action plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I have, however, wondered if the club has an action plan for the football side of things. Of course they have, they are going to make us play kick and run football to get us relegated then laugh in all our faces as they sell the land to the gypsies then run off laughing all the way to the bank with our hard earned money whilst shouting "you should have listened to the Corporal, he knew what we were up to". Then us overly loud minority will don the sackcloth and ashes and parade around the town whilst the silent majority in their warm and comfortable homes take their eyes of the dazzling football on SKY to narrow their gaze at us whilst muttering that we are fools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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