Manchester Congestion Charge Referendum

[oafc0000]

From my perspective, it isn't perfectly decent. The trains from Hollinwood and Failsworth into Manchester (And Rochdale) are crap. In fact out of peak hours and Sundays I think it's about 1 train an hour. The Metrolink will mean a tram every SIX minutes in peak times and every TWELVE minutes off peak.

 

I know Rochdale train station is a little out of town, but regular services to and fro will encourage regeneration to that 'unloved' part of Rochdale betwixt the Station and the centre.

 

Very true... They are three an hour at best...

[leeslover]

From my perspective, it isn't perfectly decent. The trains from Hollinwood and Failsworth into Manchester (And Rochdale) are crap. In fact out of peak hours and Sundays I think it's about 1 train an hour. The Metrolink will mean a tram every SIX minutes in peak times and every TWELVE minutes off peak.

 

I know Rochdale train station is a little out of town, but regular services to and fro will encourage regeneration to that 'unloved' part of Rochdale betwixt the Station and the centre.

I just checked, 2 an hour late in the evening, although not every half hour. This isn't great I will grant you, although it is peak hours that we are talking about here. The tram still won't change the fact that it's in a pointless location though, people will still be looking at a taxi journey onwards, or a walk into town to get a bus onwards, easier just to get a bus from Manc in the first place.

 

As for regenerating the area towards the town - my arse it will. The town centre itself is all but dead, having a few punters walking along the grimy strip of desolation to or from the station isn't going to change that.

[andy_b_100]

I commute everyday from Oldham to city centre Manchester. I arrive before the charge kicks in but leave as it kicks in in the evening. The charge on top of the charge for parking on top of petrol and top of tax and insurance makes it pretty much impossible for me to drive to work for financial reasons. I also give lifts to three people who live in Oldham and Failsworth respectivley. The current public transport is really poor and the 'local' train stations ie Derker and Failsworth are a joke in dark mornings/evenings. The current transport is unreliable and reletivley unkempt. The buses and trains are overcrowded and ant peak times often miss stops due to being full. In order for me to vote yes the improvements to the public transport would have to firmly be in place BEFORE I voted as the 'promise' of it is not good enough. Im fully aware that this voting before delivery is what is the norm in politics ... however in this case improve first to WIN my vote .. if not its a joke. I will reduce nothing just force the non retail businesses to re jig thier shif patterns to accomadate low paid staff. Also the 20% reduction in cost is a joke, as it has risen by more than this in the last three years. All in all as usual the commuting public get very little. If these improvements are to be paid for by ALL road users and not just the car driver. No charge to people who use motor cycles... why do they fly in and out of Manchester??? or use the same road with two wheels instead of four.

[garcon]

I know Rochdale train station is a little out of town, but regular services to and fro will encourage regeneration to that 'unloved' part of Rochdale betwixt the Station and the centre.

If regeneration involves tactical nuclear weapons I'm all for it.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

I just checked, 2 an hour late in the evening, although not every half hour. This isn't great I will grant you, although it is peak hours that we are talking about here. The tram still won't change the fact that it's in a pointless location though, people will still be looking at a taxi journey onwards, or a walk into town to get a bus onwards, easier just to get a bus from Manc in the first place.

 

As for regenerating the area towards the town - my arse it will. The town centre itself is all but dead, having a few punters walking along the grimy strip of desolation to or from the station isn't going to change that.

 

I disagree. It will over time. Better transport links will make an area more appealing for people living and employment. Ten years ago I'd have took one look around areas like Salford (Weaste and Langworthy), Ancoats, Hulme and thought you could never polish a turd. But slowly and steadily areas improve, and they are completely unrecognisable now to the crack den ridden ghettos they used to be. Having a tram line with TEN trams an hour is a huge selling point business-wise in attracting staff and building acommodation.

 

Anyway, my point was the service between Manchester and Rochdale is currently rubbish, and I can't wait for the Metrolink to be installed so hopefully my pipedream is fulfilled and my house rises in value a bit.

 

And on the lack of congestion charge for motorcycles... How about motorcycles with sidecars?

[leeslover]

I disagree. It will over time. Better transport links will make an area more appealing for people living and employment. Ten years ago I'd have took one look around areas like Salford (Weaste and Langworthy), Ancoats, Hulme and thought you could never polish a turd. But slowly and steadily areas improve, and they are completely unrecognisable now to the crack den ridden ghettos they used to be. Having a tram line with TEN trams an hour is a huge selling point business-wise in attracting staff and building acommodation.

 

Anyway, my point was the service between Manchester and Rochdale is currently rubbish, and I can't wait for the Metrolink to be installed so hopefully my pipedream is fulfilled and my house rises in value a bit.

 

And on the lack of congestion charge for motorcycles... How about motorcycles with sidecars?

It’s going to be a long, long time before blocks of posh new flats get built on Tweedale Street...

[Guest M_OAFC]

Your mindset is that people have a "right" to drive cars and destroy the earth... My mindset is very different...

 

Please don't try giving me the environmental argument because that truly is a load of cobblers.

 

So far every solution to that problem in this country has to been to charge people more for doing things they know it is impractical for them to stop doing. Make it more expensive to fly, make it more expensive to drive so on and so forth.

 

But the people intorducing these charges know full well that most of the people doing those things are going to have to carry on doing them if they want to lead anything resembling a normal life and as far as they are concerned that's the beauty of it because it's just a source of revenue to them and nothing more than that so more people that keep doing it the better.

 

They are not introducing these charges out of any genuine concern for the environment, they'd love you to believe that, and sadly many people fall for it. But all they are really doing is using the recent rise in public awareness about environmental problems as an excuse to bring in some more revenue.

 

If they were genuinely concerned about the environment they'd be investing money in realistic, paractical and sustainable solutions such as developing cleaner fuels that actually do work, or a proper overhaul of public transport (which this doesn't come remotely close to).

 

But trying to price people out of driving when there is no viable alternative is not a solution to any environmental problem, it;s just a cash cow. The environment has become an industry to these people.

 

So no, my mindest is not that people have a right to damage the environment regardless of the circumstances as you suggest, my mindset is that I want any measure that's brought in to prevent it to be a workable one and not just a fund raiser which is all this is because the reduction of cars on the road if and when it comes in will be scarecely noticable, if at all.

 

Yes we should agree to disagree....

 

That I agree with!

[oafc0000]

Please don't try giving me the environmental argument because that truly is a load of cobblers.

 

Maybe in your selfish little world it is....

[Guest M_OAFC]

the service between Manchester and Rochdale is currently rubbish

 

The point you make about the frequency of the current trains compared to proposed trams is a very valid one on the oldham side of the loop.

 

But I was always under the impression that the service from Rochdale was quite good because as well as the 3 an hour on the Oldham/Rochdale loop, they also get a couple an hour coming through on the way from Yorkshire don't they? I stand corrected if not, but if so that's a pretty reasonable service.

 

It's also worth considering that whilst the metro will be more frequent, we already see people having to wait for the second and even third train to come along before they can actually fit on one at peak times, and the capacity of the trains is considerably larger than that of the metro.

 

If the 7am train holds 200 and the 7.20 holds another 200 that's 400 people you've got on their way. If the metro only holds 150 then its going to take until the 3rd tram to get all those people on their way so your 6 minute wait can quite easily become 18 which isn't much different.

 

Plus the journey on the metro is going to take longer so if you're one of the unlucky ones then by the time you actually get to Manchester it will have taken you longer since arriving at the station than it used to by train.

 

And lets not forget the metro is going to cost more as well!

[leeslover]

Yes, the stopping train from York to Manchester goes through Rochdale.

[garcon]

Driving a car is a privilege, not a right. As are many other privileges that people seem to claim are their "rights".

 

However, I find the environmental argument with respect to cars is wearing thin. Not because cars don't have any impact, but because car manufacturers have done more than arguably any other industry to improve their products' emissions, and because government has slapped more environmental tax on motorists than on any other form of emissions.

 

If cars were the only, or the largest single, contributor to CO2 emissions, that might be justifiable, but they aren't. I don't have immediate access to reliable statistics, but the last I saw suggest that transport as a whole is responsible for only around 15% of global CO2 manmade emissions, over half of that is air travel, less than a third (i.e. under 5% of the total) is private vehicles.

 

Motorists and car manufacturers are already doing more than their fair share in terms of environmental and sustainability measures - it's time other areas of human activity were focussed upon.

 

Back to the Manchester congestion charge, we should drop the whole "cars are bad for the environment" thing and concentrate on real factors that could be impacted - congestion, efficiency, convenience, integration of transport...

 

Yes, as I've said, there could be a positive environmental effect by improving those factors, but let's not muddy the waters by getting involved in typical anti-car lobby arguments.

Edited December 1, 2008 by garcon

[Gaz_Oafc]

So far every solution to that problem in this country has to been to charge people more for doing things they know it is impractical for them to stop doing. Make it more expensive to fly, make it more expensive to drive so on and so forth.

 

But the people intorducing these charges know full well that most of the people doing those things are going to have to carry on doing them if they want to lead anything resembling a normal life and as far as they are concerned that's the beauty of it because it's just a source of revenue to them and nothing more than that so more people that keep doing it the better.

 

 

Imagine the fat-cats faces if everybody did stop driving to and from Manchester, they'd crap themselves! I wonder what would happen then, how would they repay all that debt used to improve public transport?

 

bang up the prices of bus, train and tram fairs is what they'd do!!

[Guest M_OAFC]

Maybe in your selfish little world it is....

 

I have already explained to you why such a stance is not selfish.

 

You are arguing the case for a scheme that is designed simply to generate revenue for those that seek to introduce it whilst offering scarcely any benefit to the environment and at the same time fleecing the pockets of people who are being given no viable alternative to driving their cars. And you call me selfish.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

The point you make about the frequency of the current trains compared to proposed trams is a very valid one on the oldham side of the loop.

 

But I was always under the impression that the service from Rochdale was quite good because as well as the 3 an hour on the Oldham/Rochdale loop, they also get a couple an hour coming through on the way from Yorkshire don't they? I stand corrected if not, but if so that's a pretty reasonable service.

 

It's also worth considering that whilst the metro will be more frequent, we already see people having to wait for the second and even third train to come along before they can actually fit on one at peak times, and the capacity of the trains is considerably larger than that of the metro.

 

If the 7am train holds 200 and the 7.20 holds another 200 that's 400 people you've got on their way. If the metro only holds 150 then its going to take until the 3rd tram to get all those people on their way so your 6 minute wait can quite easily become 18 which isn't much different.

 

Plus the journey on the metro is going to take longer so if you're one of the unlucky ones then by the time you actually get to Manchester it will have taken you longer since arriving at the station than it used to by train.

 

And lets not forget the metro is going to cost more as well!

 

You're correct in the trains from Rochdale itself. There are two routes; the Oldham loop and the Mill Hill/Moston line, which is where the trains running from Yorkshire go on. My point was the Oldham loop line is poor, the other one is fairly adequate but I think only amounts to about 2 an hour, maybe 3 at peak times. In all honesty you should have at least 5 or 6 an hour, and at least 3 an hour offpeak or on Sundays. People are constantly getting left behind at Mill Hill station according to the Granada News report I saw last week.

 

I disagree completely about the argument about it going to cost more. A single ticket by bus now from Hollinwood to Manchester is £3.00. A return is about £3.60. I think the train's about £2.00 (from Hollinwood) but I think that may be offpeak. I know the return ticket from Milnrow on the train at peak time is over a fiver as it stands now. I think the Metrolink would possibly be cheaper now for an equivilent distance. It's a bit of a myth that it's "dead expensive and overpriced" IMO.

 

Anyway, that debate is rather pointless since the funding is already in place for the redeveloped Oldham Loop line.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

If the 7am train holds 200 and the 7.20 holds another 200 that's 400 people you've got on their way. If the metro only holds 150 then its going to take until the 3rd tram to get all those people on their way so your 6 minute wait can quite easily become 18 which isn't much different.

 

I don't get your sums here by the way. If you're missing 2 trains and getting on the third then that's about an hours wait. In that time with the proposed Metrolink, you'd see about TEN trams go past, so far more chance of not getting left at a stop for an hour.

[oafc0000]

I don't get your sums here by the way. If you're missing 2 trains and getting on the third then that's about an hours wait. In that time with the proposed Metrolink, you'd see about TEN trams go past, so far more chance of not getting left at a stop for an hour.

 

You wouldn't think it was all that hard to grasp would you...

[outoftheblue]

There are many points to be raised (And questions to be asked) before commiting ourselves to an irreversible and economic status linked charge.

I have 61 people employed here, who will all be affected in some way by the proposed TIF, particularly as the company is situated right on the outer circle at Hollinwood. It is therefore important that I attend all forums, meetings and debates in order to obtain as much information as possible on their behalf.

The outcome of collating all this info is a resounding NO vote.

 

Manchester does not suffer congestion, other than the areas around Ancoats, Deansgate, ShudeHill, Chester Rd and the Motorway network. In fact, TrafficMaster (The official source of the Governments figures) have observed that traffic has declined in 11 out of the 14 Districts in the last 6 months.

When borne in mind that the Motorway network accounts for 60% of traffic congestion and will not benefit from any improvements it is difficult to see how any substantial reduction in congestion will be seen.

In order to avoid using outer circle roads, traffic will be more likely to use the Motorway to skirt the congestion charge for journeys between Hollinwood and salford etc. thus increasing congestion further on those motorways (And no doubt forcing a toll system on the NW Motorway network in the future).

There is no guarantee that the introduction of congestion charging will actually reduce congestion whatsoever. Indeed, the construction of the charging gantries on the access 'corridors' outlined, the blocking off of 'back streets' and the reduction of road space through the introduction of new bus lanes and various other traffic calming measures could well lead to increased congestion despite a drop in the volume of vehicles entering the congestion zones, as has been seen in London.

It takes around 12 minutes to drive from Hollinwood to Manchester at 8.30am - a 10% decrease in traffic would save me just over a minute for my £3 donation. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

It is easy to understand why so many people mistrust our local governments when they churn out unbalanced pro-charge propaganda in the media at a cost of £25,000 of OUR money, whilst telling us that the TIF will bring the metrolink to Oldham (When the money has ALREADY been allocated for the metrolink by the Government - and the TIF will actually only pay for the short route through Union St which Oldham Council are laughingly calling 'The heart of Oldham').

Also we should not overlook the official leaflet that reads: "You should have received your voting form. If you haven't received it or need any help completing your form, please contact the Yes office." It then gives the number of the Yes Campaign office above that of the official referendum hotline, where they offer to help you fill your ballot form out!

 

The good people of Royton, Fitton Hill, Holts, Abbeyhills, Waterhead, Sholver, Lees and many other areas will see no benefit from the tram coming through that non-residential part of our Borough - If they are to avoid the congestion charge to reach Manchester they will need to join the masses on the slow unreliable buses, which are offering to soften the blow by increasing services by 10% (Subject to the Private bus companies putting buses on in those areas that are not financially favourable to them of course).

 

Hollinwood will become much more congested than it currently is due to those working just inside the zone parking where possible around the old Lime Mill (Dannimac) site and walking into the outer ring, until of course the council decorate the roadside with their favourite yellow stripes, or build a Pay & Display site there (Maybe that's why the likes of Ikea were forbidden from purchasing that land? - foresight from OMBC perhaps?).

 

With Oldham currently boasting over 120 schools, it seems incredible that the extra nine proposed yellow school buses are likely to benefit any more than a small fraction of parents who want to ensure their kids are safely in school before driving on to their workplace, and if they wish instead to take advantage of those 10% more Private buses, there is no guarantee of cost savings, as neither the proposed transport infrastructure investment, nor the congestion charge will do anything to reduce the currently high fares charged by private bus companies and rail operators, which are to be frozen (after a further higher than inflationary hike in rail fares early in the New Year) despite the recent drop in the price of oil, diesel and other fuel costs.

 

Changing starting and finishing times at work is rarely an easy way of avoiding the charges. My Wife runs two wards at the Royal Oldham Hospital where eight of her staff (That's in two out of over fifty departments remember) live inside the zone and would be forced to pay charges to work some of their shifts - could anyone honestly see the NHS changing all their shift patterns to suit the charging times? I couldn't change ours, so I know they certainly wouldn't.

Having written to all our suppliers, it appears that all extra delivery charges incurred will be passed on to us, in the same way as I intend to pass on costs to those customers of ours who are inside the charging zones. Conversations with representatives of major carriers (Tuffnells, Palletways, Palletrack etc) around the area have suggested that the charges could cost them up to £300 per day - not something they will swallow the cost of without increasing their rates I suspect.

 

So do we just pay the charges and hope that our thrifty and pennywise council spend their £2.8Bn share correctly? (And not waste it on projects like the hundreds of dangerous and pointless mini roundabouts and speed humps that currently blight the area) Or do we question the figures first?

After all, if the £30 million per year interest on the £1.2bn loan is to come from the congestion charges, what will happen if rising fuel prices and increases in the C-Charge mean that traffic is reduced beyond their expectation and drops to 50%? Who will pay the interest then? My guess is the Council Tax Payer as usual.

And if the official figures quoted are to be believed, then only 6% of all drivers will pay charges of around £14 pw. My grasp of mathematics (600000 x £14) says that equates to £43m per year less operating costs. That would mean they are already sailing close to the wind with regard to paying off the interest, so it wouldn't be long before the tax payer had to reach into his pocket.

 

Finally, bear in mind how the votes are likely to favour the charges. Manchester residents (Who will benefit most, yet pay least) will make up 17.55% of the electorate, and Wigan (Who are unlikely to be affected by the charges, yet will still gain £2.8bn of public funds) have the second highest number of votes making up 12.11% of the electorate.

 

If a charge is needed, then it is within 8 sq miles of the City - not 80 sq miles. Anything else is a blatant tax.

[garcon]

Does anyone actually know what the relative capacities of the trains and trams are?

 

(Bearing in mind this is kind of going off topic, as we've already mentioned the Oldham metrolink loop is supposed to be happening anyway ... but watch the lying c**ts snivel their way out of it if the vote is "NO" ... )

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Does anyone actually know what the relative capacities of the trains and trams are?

 

(Bearing in mind this is kind of going off topic, as we've already mentioned the Oldham metrolink loop is supposed to be happening anyway ... but watch the lying c**ts snivel their way out of it if the vote is "NO" ... )

 

Metrolink trams carry 86 seated and 122 standing in two carriages, so just over 200 per tram.

 

Trains are debatable since many are very different. Mostly they are two carriages too.

[Guest M_OAFC]

You're correct in the trains from Rochdale itself. There are two routes; the Oldham loop and the Mill Hill/Moston line, which is where the trains running from Yorkshire go on. My point was the Oldham loop line is poor, the other one is fairly adequate but I think only amounts to about 2 an hour, maybe 3 at peak times. In all honesty you should have at least 5 or 6 an hour, and at least 3 an hour offpeak or on Sundays. People are constantly getting left behind at Mill Hill station according to the Granada News report I saw last week.

 

I disagree completely about the argument about it going to cost more. A single ticket by bus now from Hollinwood to Manchester is £3.00. A return is about £3.60. I think the train's about £2.00 (from Hollinwood) but I think that may be offpeak. I know the return ticket from Milnrow on the train at peak time is over a fiver as it stands now. I think the Metrolink would possibly be cheaper now for an equivilent distance. It's a bit of a myth that it's "dead expensive and overpriced" IMO.

 

Anyway, that debate is rather pointless since the funding is already in place for the redeveloped Oldham Loop line.

 

The trains from Manchester to Oldham carry on to Rochdale and then back to Manchester down the other side of the loop which incorporates Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston. Don't the Yorkshire trains also stop at those stations when they leave Rochdale? If so that would make about 5 an hour from those 4 stations which seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

If that is the case it seems strange that Mills Hill has been highlighted as a problem spot for people getting left behind. I can only assume that the volume of people is so great that even with 5 trains an hour there is still over crowding. I know that large numbers of people getting left behind was a daily occurance from Oldham Mumps when I used to get the train from there to Manchester but then theres only 3 an hour from there and you'd have thought the extra 2 would alleviate it. Perhaps the Yorkshire ones don't stop at Mills Hill then?

 

Either way you're right that Milnrow, New Hey, Shaw, Mumps, Werneth, Hollinwood, Failsworth and Dean Lane don't get that volume of service but like I said I'm not convinced the metro will solve the problem.

 

In all honesty I've no idea exactly what they are proposing to charge when the metro arrives. All I know is that the yes campaign have been trying hard to assure people that the extra cost will be worth it which suggests it's going to be a fare bit more if they are worried about it costing them votes.

 

Anyway, like you said it's all pretty academic because the metro is coming to Oldham and Rochdale regardless.

[Guest M_OAFC]

I don't get your sums here by the way. If you're missing 2 trains and getting on the third then that's about an hours wait. In that time with the proposed Metrolink, you'd see about TEN trams go past, so far more chance of not getting left at a stop for an hour.

 

No, I was assuming that the person in question managed to get on the 2nd train in which case they'd have waited just over 20 minutes, time for 3 or 4 trams to pass.

 

Given the smaller capacity of the trams it would take 3 or 4 of them (depending on precise capacity figures) to accomodate as many people as 2 trains used to.

 

Therefore somebody who would have been unable to squeeze on the first train could be waiting for up to the 3rd of 4th tram. Allowing for the slower journey time as well, then that person likely to arrive in Manchester any quicker.

 

And even if they couldn't get on till the 3rd train, the principle would still be the same. For that to happen then there must obviously be more people trying to get on thus inflaming the problem, but it would be inflamed proportionately if the metro was being used so you're still in the same boat.

Edited December 1, 2008 by M_OAFC

[Guest M_OAFC]

You wouldn't think it was all that hard to grasp would you...

 

You tell me, you're the one that didn't get it

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Given the smaller capacity of the trams it would take 3 or 4 of them (depending on precise capacity figures) to accomodate as many people as 2 trains used to.

 

That's a complete assumption based on the Hill-Matthewson gambit of "Oooh, trains look miles bigger than trams"! In actual fact, do we know for definite that trams are smaller than trains? The two carriage heaps o' crap that I used to catch to and from Milnrow a few years back, I pretty much doubt you can get much more than 200 people on them. When you consider there will be 3 trams to every train in a peak time hour, I think it stands to reason the transport links will be greatly improved.

 

Also, can we confirm whether the Metrolink covers Castleton, Mill Hill and Moston? Because trams and trains will need to share the track and I'm not sure that's doable. I suspect Metrolink will only cover the Oldham side of the loop.

[neiladamsheadband]

a definite no from me, reallly dont think it has been thought through correctly, and even now there are a lot of Ts to be crossed n Is to be dotted, which is bloody typical of anything in this area, dont normally vote in anything but this onE Felt it was needed

[Guest M_OAFC]

That's a complete assumption based on the Hill-Matthewson gambit of "Oooh, trains look miles bigger than trams"! In actual fact, do we know for definite that trams are smaller than trains? The two carriage heaps o' crap that I used to catch to and from Milnrow a few years back, I pretty much doubt you can get much more than 200 people on them. When you consider there will be 3 trams to every train in a peak time hour, I think it stands to reason the transport links will be greatly improved.

 

Also, can we confirm whether the Metrolink covers Castleton, Mill Hill and Moston? Because trams and trains will need to share the track and I'm not sure that's doable. I suspect Metrolink will only cover the Oldham side of the loop.

 

That's fair comment, I am only assuming. I'd be amazed if the trains don't hold a fair bit more though, they certainly look a lot bigger, albeit Hill-Matthewson style! But it's not confirmed that is true.

 

As I understand it you are correct, the metrolink won't cover Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston, presumably because of the difficulty that you pointed out in sharing a track with the Yorkshire trains, which I don't suppose they can really put a stop to in order to accomodate metrolink. Hence if you want to go from Rochdale to Manchester it is still going to be a lot quicker by standard train.