Oldham East and Saddleworth By-election

[Stitch_KTF]

Who's they? The Tories who opposed the minimum wage, saying that millions would end up on the dole, when the exact opposite happened? I agree. Or do you mean the Tories who wanted even less City regulation before the crash? Or the Tories who are dismantling the NHS against the wishes of the entire medical profession? Or the Tories who are letting dangerous criminals out into the community? Or the Tories who are fashioning policies to discipline, punish and humiliate the unemployed? Or the Tories who are putting millions on the dole to satisfy a warped and silly ideology?

 

Just exactly who do you think is causing trouble?

 

I blame the minimum wage for these annoying self-service check-outs in the supermarkets (though useful when buying some particular items).

 

The checkout staff who can only get 12 hours a week courtesy, largely, of the law pricing their unskilled labour out of the market wouldn't much like it either, however 9 out of 10 probably uphold NMW without realising this not so intricate intricacy.

 

And some tyrant somewhere will be exploiting the blessed NMW, and these poor common folk, by making millions off these machines before handing over their gains to a 'Banker', who screws the hardworking, tax-paying masses again. The tyrant no doubt hails from foreign shores.

 

As for the NHS, dismantle away. Or just demolish. Recent dealings left me feeling I had experienced what it was like living in the 40's. Privatise healthcare and provide health insurance in the form of a benefit to the needy. Voila.

[mikejh45]

Who's they? The Tories who opposed the minimum wage, saying that millions would end up on the dole, when the exact opposite happened? I agree. Or do you mean the Tories who wanted even less City regulation before the crash? Or the Tories who are dismantling the NHS against the wishes of the entire medical profession? Or the Tories who are letting dangerous criminals out into the community? Or the Tories who are fashioning policies to discipline, punish and humiliate the unemployed? Or the Tories who are putting millions on the dole to satisfy a warped and silly ideology?

 

Just exactly who do you think is causing trouble?

 

Tulsehill. Old Boy, if you are going to rant......at least be sensible and balanced with your arguments!!!

 

1) The dole queue went down under Labour by pushing significant numbers onto disability benefits and into public 'non-jobs'.

2) All parties promise a sunny life when in opposition.....Labour in opposition pre-1997 was somewhat different to Labour post 1997. However, one promise they made and kept was to get rid of fox-hunting and how much time and effort did that take and has it really enhanced the life of the ordinary man/woman on the street.

3) There is no more dismantling of the NHS under Conservative/Lib-Dem govt. than under Labour, only getting rid of the the masses of non-essential jobs. Don't forget, under Labour, the NHS achieved the employment figure of more admin. than doctors and nurses.

4) The policy on dangerous criminals being released has not changed for several years. Two very recent examples are Learco Chindamo and Jon Venables.

 

Happy Days!!!

 

 

 

 

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Sure yeah right.

 

1) Show me.

2) Surely the minimum wage, plus record investment in schools and the NHS made a difference to the ordinary man and woman? And dozens and possibly even hundreds of other things. You see the alternative is the Tories, who preach that the ordinary man and woman are :censored: and deserve to be treated as such. You pays your money and takes your choice.

3) Show me the non-essential jobs. How does GP commissioning not constitute a dismantling of the NHS?

4) Venables was released after serving his sentence. Never mind. The Tory thinking is that jail costs money, and criminals only really mess up less well-off areas. So you can save money and not damage your electoral prospects.

[garcon]

So, tell me, is Ed Balls now "dirty lying scum" or does that just happen when ConDems "change their mind" ?

[mikejh45]

Sure yeah right.

 

1) Show me.

2) Surely the minimum wage, plus record investment in schools and the NHS made a difference to the ordinary man and woman? And dozens and possibly even hundreds of other things. You see the alternative is the Tories, who preach that the ordinary man and woman are :censored: and deserve to be treated as such. You pays your money and takes your choice.

3) Show me the non-essential jobs. How does GP commissioning not constitute a dismantling of the NHS?

4) Venables was released after serving his sentence. Never mind. The Tory thinking is that jail costs money, and criminals only really mess up less well-off areas. So you can save money and not damage your electoral prospects.

 

Ok, ya pain in the arse, as you require proof whenever someone makes a statement you obviously do not agree with.....please give us your information to back up that statement the Tories preach "the ordinary man and woman are :censored:" or is this personal opinion?

 

1) http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oc...imants-work-dwp

2) No doubt you will say it is a crap analogy but all Labour did was to give a big cheque to the NHS and the Dept. of Education without a clear plan of how those resources were to be used (my opinion).......no different to giving a 6 year old a £10 note in a sweet shop and telling that child to spend it wisely.

3) Last time I looked at the NHS, GP's were still part of the system.

4) Irrespective of Venables having served his sentence, he was still released on parole and following psychiatric tests but all this was still done during the last government. Anyway, I've quickly given you 2 examples, can you not see that the policy of releasing dangerous prisoners has not changed? I will however agree the point regarding prisons & prison numbers.

[OldhamSheridan]

4) Irrespective of Venables having served his sentence, he was still released on parole and following psychiatric tests but all this was still done during the last government. Anyway, I've quickly given you 2 examples, can you not see that the policy of releasing dangerous prisoners has not changed? I will however agree the point regarding prisons & prison numbers.

 

I'm not especially for Labour, but FFS you can hardly blame the Government at the time for making the right decision when a guy has served his course in jail. The stuff afterwards is just a sad re-offending fact, that will happen again tomorrow (under different conditions).

 

Now, the Liberal idea of a different way of doing things (prisonwise) is something I strongly agree with. Will it work? No idea. But I think it is worth a go.

[futchers briefs]

They're all the same in that they all tell lies, consistently talk bollocks, constantly represent themselves and change whatever they can, whenever they can, to save the most money and subsidise their own lifestyles.

 

They're predominately a set of lying, cheating, overpaid, middle class, spoon fed baffoons whom live very unrealistic lives.

 

Stick that in your cue card and read it.

[opinions4u]

They're all the same in that they all tell lies, consistently talk bollocks, constantly represent themselves and change whatever they can, whenever they can, to save the most money and subsidise their own lifestyles.

 

They're predominately a set of lying, cheating, overpaid, middle class, spoon fed baffoons whom live very unrealistic lives.

So extraordinarily accurate.

[mikejh45]

I'm not especially for Labour, but FFS you can hardly blame the Government at the time for making the right decision when a guy has served his course in jail. The stuff afterwards is just a sad re-offending fact, that will happen again tomorrow (under different conditions).

 

Not disagreeing with your point. I was arguing the myopic viewpoint of Mr. Tulsehill who categorically stated that it was just Labour who are releasing dangerous criminals.

[futchers briefs]

So extraordinarily accurate.

Thank You.

A 'sensible' late night rant...Who'd have thought it?

[nzlatic]

Sure yeah right.

 

1) Show me.

2) Surely the minimum wage, plus record investment in schools and the NHS made a difference to the ordinary man and woman? And dozens and possibly even hundreds of other things. You see the alternative is the Tories, who preach that the ordinary man and woman are :censored: and deserve to be treated as such. You pays your money and takes your choice.

3) Show me the non-essential jobs. How does GP commissioning not constitute a dismantling of the NHS?

4) Venables was released after serving his sentence. Never mind. The Tory thinking is that jail costs money, and criminals only really mess up less well-off areas. So you can save money and not damage your electoral prospects.

 

I've been reading this and other political debates on here for a while and thought I'd throw in a couple of personal examples of how I've found the country not to be this Labour run utopia that you seem to be suggesting it was before satan etc got in power (presumably by some sort of mind control trick).

 

1. When I got back from NZ I was living at my folks place while job hunting. I went to see if I could get some dole to tide me over. 2 burly greeters at the door to see if I was in the right place "I'm here to claim dole". A small queue to get to the next 2 greeters (less burly, more patronising) "I'm here to claim dole". I was then told to go upstairs and register. I get to the bottom of the stairs where 2 more greeters were checking I was in the right place "I'm here to claim dole and was told to go upstairs". At the top of the stairs 2 more greeters checked I was in the right place "I'm here to....etc". I was directed to a receptionist who gave me forms to fill out and told me to wait to be called. Then I was called to see someone who checked I was in the right place then essentially put my details on the computer. Then I had to wait again to see someone who gave me all manner of leaflets and took me through some jobs on the internet, all of which I'd seen myself.

Oh, all this was after spending 90 minutes on the phone to the dole office beforehand going through my situation and registering all my details. But no, there are no "non-jobs" in the public sector and no waste at all needs addressing. In the end I didn't get it, but I won't bore you further with the tale of my attempt to speak to the person who made the decision "Sorry, it wasn't me that made the decision so I can't help..."

 

2. My dad became ill last October and was admitted to hospital. What an eye opener that was. My first thought was how you are bombarded with the product of a bored HR team trying to justify their existence - posters and displays galore explaining things such as why patients have dedicated meal times (probably a product of this "record investment"). I also found out that being a doctor in a hospital seems to be a Monday to Friday 9-5 job. He had a scan on Friday to determine the problem (after 2 weeks of repeated failed attempts at a colonoscopy), however the doc could not see him to discuss the results until the Tuesday. Turns out he had advanced bowel cancer and needed an emergency operation. 48 hours later he had the op, then a day later was moved from intensive care back to the ward and didn't see a doctor again until Sunday when one was called in because he was dying. He died on the Monday night and every conversation with the medical staff following that seemed to be all about them covering their arses in fear of a law suit rather than explaining what had happened. Not that we were looking to blame anyone, he was 85 and had had a good knock.

 

3. When registering his death we turned up at the registry office for our appointment and there was no one else in the waiting room, but 6 people in the office area stood around nattering. We were told to take a seat and were seen (by one of the nattering registrars) after a 10 minute wait. On leaving they were all back in the office gossiping away.

 

The NHS is in need of massive reform. Whether the government will do it properly is a question I'm not informed enough to answer. But our case was not a one off. My mum spoke a lot with other patients and their relatives and they all felt the same - the NHS is a disgrace. And this was in Doncaster - a very Labour town.

 

And as far as I can see, there is massive waste in the public sector - far too many poorly educated idiots in unnecessary admin jobs. But hey, at least Labour got unemployment down.

 

I'm no Conservative - Futcher's Briefs summed it perfectly. But for anyone to argue that some sort of change wasn't needed is totally blinkered.

[OldhamSheridan]

I think it is undoubtedly true that there were loads of jobs created in the public sector that were unnecessary. I'd guess around one in four.

 

The only problem is that the dismantling of those jobs is being given to people with too much self interest.

 

The first run of ER/VR has seen all the management take £100,000 EACH to leave. The savings are gone now. Stolen by this bunch of miscreants. The next run has seen poor workers (cleaners, admin types, etc.) offered reduced terms, maybe £5k to lose their livelihood.

 

Once you get past this, there is still around 30% cuts to be made in a Council. Library. Gone. Bus service. Gone. Regeneration. Given up. Tourism. Lost. Mentally handicapped. Dead. Kids. Dead. New management. Pay rise. Non-jobs. Some gone, some remain (about 70% I would guess).

 

There's just no direction at all.

[leeslover]

I blame the minimum wage for these annoying self-service check-outs in the supermarkets (though useful when buying some particular items).

I quite like them at times when I don't want to interact with human beings. They are paid for by the minimum wage though, that much is tue.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I've been reading this and other political debates on here for a while and thought I'd throw in a couple of personal examples of how I've found the country not to be this Labour run utopia that you seem to be suggesting it was before satan etc got in power (presumably by some sort of mind control trick).

 

1. I had an unsatisfactory visit to the dole office and got it in my mind that I could do the job that everyone in there was doing better than they were doing it. This is not a fresh idea.

 

2. That's an unfortunate experience, and it's true that cancer outcomes aren't what they could be. This one is really about alternatives. See how someone in your dad's situation gets on when Lansley has finished with the NHS. There's also an accountability factor to Lansley's reforms. Basically, in your dad's case, the Health Secretary is at the top of a chain of accountability. Under Lansley's scheme, someone you've never heard of - if anyone - will be at the top of the chain, and you won't be able to get rid of them through the ballot box, take them to court or gain redress in any way. Lansley will be sitting on the sidelines, shrugging his shoulders and going, "It's not my fault."

 

3. There's also far too much waste in the private sector. I imagine that the Derivatives Investment Analyst at RBS is paid just a tad more than those people in the registrar's office.

 

Let me get that last bit straight. You say you're not a Tory, but that some sort of change was necessary. But that means the Tories. The Tories were the only alternative. You're basically saying that things were bad, but you just thought that for the sake of change, making things worse is somehow okay. Fair enough. Each to their own.

Edited January 22, 2011 by 24hoursfromtulsehill

[leeslover]

1. I had an unsatisfactory visit to the dole office and got it in my mind that I could do the job that everyone in there was doing better than they were doing it. This is not a fresh idea.

 

2. That's an unfortunate experience, and it's true that cancer outcomes aren't what they could be. This one is really about alternatives. See how someone in your dad's situation gets on when Lansley has finished with the NHS. There's also an accountability factor to Lansley's reforms. Basically, in your dad's case, the Health Secretary is at the top of a chain of accountability. Under Lansley's scheme, someone you've never heard of - if anyone - will be at the top of the chain, and you won't be able to get rid of them through the ballot box, take them to court or gain redress in any way. Lansley will be sitting on the sidelines, shrugging his shoulders and going, "It's not my fault."

 

3. There's also far too much waste in the private sector. I imagine that the Derivatives Investment Analyst at RBS is paid just a tad more than those people in the registrar's office.

 

Let me get that last bit straight. You say you're not a Tory, but that some sort of change was necessary. But that means the Tories. The Tories were the only alternative. You're basically saying that things were bad, but you just thought that for the sake of change, making things worse is somehow okay. Fair enough. Each to their own.

Weak. You deny that there is waste, someone points out from personal experience that there is enormous waste (and compared to a culturally similar country which didn't o down Tony and Gordy's route) and you attack him. Well done.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

It's his personal opinion that there's waste. And yours. Except you see it everywhere in the public sector, and nowhere in the private sector, because you were built wrongly.

[leeslover]

It's his personal opinion that there's waste. And yours. Except you see it everywhere in the public sector, and nowhere in the private sector, because you were built wrongly.

Waste in the private sector is at the expense of the shareholders of the company. You can choose to own shares in the company and you can choose to buy from them or from a competitor. Spot the difference?

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Most shares, as you well know, are owned by institutions, which get their money to invest from ordinary folk who are members of pension funds and so on or savers in banks or even just bank account holders. It's just horse crap that ordinary people don't suffer from private sector waste, such as team-building activity weeks in Barbados.

[leeslover]

Most shares, as you well know, are owned by institutions, which get their money to invest from ordinary folk who are members of pension funds and so on or savers in banks or even just bank account holders. It's just horse crap that ordinary people don't suffer from private sector waste, such as team-building activity weeks in Barbados.

Yes, that's why there is pressure to cut inefficiencies. If I see people spending hours in work doing sod all, something happens. In the dole office that nzlatics was in, or the night nurses in BP Hospital when my dad was in having a similar operation to that which nzlatics senior had, nothing happens. And now, when someone is trying to do something about it, people like you kick and scream and cry, fearing that you might be next to face the realities which are the norm to most of us, the ones who pay the bills.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Yes, that's why there is pressure to cut inefficiencies.

 

Yeah. And that pressure means...team-building exercise in Barbados. All staff travelling business class.

 

If I see people spending hours in work doing sod all, something happens.

 

Yeah. You get them the sack and hire your girlfriend.

[leeslover]

Yeah. And that pressure means...team-building exercise in Barbados. All staff travelling business class.

Why not conduct a survey of our diverse membership to find out if this is common practice in the private sector? Maybe at the same time I will conduct one to see how many people experience regular efforts to cut costs and inefficiency.

 

Yeah. You get them the sack and hire your girlfriend.

Never happened, and even if it had, I'm not the one who has the same boss at home as at work

[nzlatic]

1. I had an unsatisfactory visit to the dole office and got it in my mind that I could do the job that everyone in there was doing better than they were doing it. This is not a fresh idea.

 

2. That's an unfortunate experience, and it's true that cancer outcomes aren't what they could be. This one is really about alternatives. See how someone in your dad's situation gets on when Lansley has finished with the NHS. There's also an accountability factor to Lansley's reforms. Basically, in your dad's case, the Health Secretary is at the top of a chain of accountability. Under Lansley's scheme, someone you've never heard of - if anyone - will be at the top of the chain, and you won't be able to get rid of them through the ballot box, take them to court or gain redress in any way. Lansley will be sitting on the sidelines, shrugging his shoulders and going, "It's not my fault."

 

3. There's also far too much waste in the private sector. I imagine that the Derivatives Investment Analyst at RBS is paid just a tad more than those people in the registrar's office.

 

Let me get that last bit straight. You say you're not a Tory, but that some sort of change was necessary. But that means the Tories. The Tories were the only alternative. You're basically saying that things were bad, but you just thought that for the sake of change, making things worse is somehow okay. Fair enough. Each to their own.

The fact that I didn't get the dole is irrelevant. My point was about the number of people in unnecessary jobs. Same as point 3. And it's not just the amount of waste or unnecessary jobs etc, it's that the majority of public services are utter :censored:e.

 

Why is it good that the health secretary is the top of a chain of accountability? They aren't in charge of patient care. It's far too easy for people to say "well, sorry the decision came from above, nothing I can do I'm afraid."

You seem very proud of this record investment in NHS, but what has that resulted in? Let me guess, there are some statistics about reduced waiting lists etc? Maybe some polls asking people what they thought of the service they received in the NHS might be more accurate.

 

All you hear in the media about the cuts is how unhappy the council workers are, or how the surgeons don't think the reforms are a good thing. Shocker. What about the people that matter? The ones that suffer the consequencies of the inadequacies of the public sector services all across the board. Are they happy with what Labour did? I'm guessing the general election answered that.

 

Your last point - yes, change was needed. The country is in a right state after 13 years of Labour rule and you can look to blame as many other people apart as you like. How about a bit of accountability for that?

[leeslover]

1. I had an unsatisfactory visit to the dole office and got it in my mind that I could do the job that everyone in there was doing better than they were doing it. This is not a fresh idea.

Just to follow up on this point specifically, are you saying that there may actually be a case for saving the ordinary man and woman in the street the cost of paying for many people in said dole offices throught their tax/indebtedness? Or does the fact that it's not, "a fresh idea," albeit which the last Government did nothing about mean that working families should go on paying for the wasters?

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Here's what I was saying. I shouldn't really have to say it again, but we are where we are.

 

A lot of people who go down to the dole office feel (sometimes with some justification) that they are better qualified, more experienced and better suited to a job in the dole office than the people who work in the dole office. There should be a name for the phenomena, but everyone is too dispirited to give it one.

 

[leeslover]

Here's what I was saying. I shouldn't really have to say it again, but we are where we are.

 

A lot of people who go down to the dole office feel (sometimes with some justification) that they are better qualified, more experienced and better suited to a job in the dole office than the people who work in the dole office. There should be a name for the phenomena, but everyone is too dispirited to give it one.

My friend Nick, who you know, has been a Labour party member and activist for a lot longer than you have, and will I strongly suspect remain one long after you undergo your next paradigm shift, worked in the Rotherham dole office for a while. He describes it much as I imagine it.