Zorrro Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I didn't say he did It's funny how you don't give a toss about a player sabotaging himself in this manner though Neither do you, really. This is just another of your not-so-thinly-veiled digs at organised religion. We get it, you think it's bollocks, so do a lot of us, but we realise it doesn't need to be shoehorned into every discussion we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 What I love most about this thread is that he probably hasn't even been fasting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pukka Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 "I know Muslims who observe ramadan but have no problem the rest of the time drinking and/or smoking pot. This picking and choosing can largely a cultural thing with many Muslims. The "community" all do ramadan together and support each other, but they lack any conviction in their religion to take plenty of other crucial parts of their dogma seriously." So do I, but I know many "Christians" who blaspheme, won't forgive, steal, and lie. Picking and choosing isn't a "muslim thing" - its a Human thing. I'm glad I'm not religious in the slightest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Players 'sabotage themselves' in lots of ways. Should we demand that all our players become teetotal? Should we tell Lee Croft (who has also been one of our better players) that he isn't getting anywhere near the first team until he goes to fat camp and shifts the weight? Should we ban the players from eating fast food? You've said yourself that many things can affect a player's recovery. I've addressed this in a few of my posts, especially the most recent one. I'd be far more concerned if the club told M'Changama he wasn't allowed to fast. It doesn't seem to have affected his fitness, and I'm sure he appreciates the club respecting his beliefs. Agree to disagree. I respect people right to their beliefs. It's when those beliefs turn into actions that affect other people that I have a problem. Let's not forget that he is being paid to do a job. It reminds me of one of those cop shows I watched recently. A muslim officer was chasing a joyrider, who pulled up outside a forest. The officer pursued the lad on foot, but in short order he was collapsing on the floor vomiting. Why? Because he was fasting. The officer wasn't overweight and he was about 30 years old. The simple fact was that he couldn't do his job to the best of his abilty that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Do you think that if the club had forced M'Changama to eat and drink during the day during Ramadan, that he would have played better? I don't. I think any benefit in terms of his physical condition (and as several people have said, he hasn't looked unfit) would have been outweighed by the detriment to his morale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Quite frankly if the club say it won't affect him then there's no issue whatsoever. The club quite rightly respect people's religious beliefs and have stated previously that, for example, Dean Furman has been offered to miss games for religious reasons although he hasn't taken them up on the offer. In addition, he's said himself he drank on the day of the MK game meaning he had to extend his Ramadan. He was by all accounts excellent in pre-season when the majority of fasting was going on. And most of all, live and let live. He can do what he wants. And as for the above re not training people on Ramadan, well that says more about the OP than anything else really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I've addressed this in a few of my posts, especially the most recent one. Agree to disagree. I respect people right to their beliefs. It's when those beliefs turn into actions that affect other people that I have a problem. Let's not forget that he is being paid to do a job. It reminds me of one of those cop shows I watched recently. A muslim officer was chasing a joyrider, who pulled up outside a forest. The officer pursued the lad on foot, but in short order he was collapsing on the floor vomiting. Why? Because he was fasting. The officer wasn't overweight and he was about 30 years old. The simple fact was that he couldn't do his job to the best of his abilty that day. Why does it remind you of that? Have you seen any tangible sign that M'changama was unable to perform? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 He's been by far our liveliest player in three league games so far. He's also our leading scorer. If he's going to get slightly better because he's eating food or something, great. But this thread is :censored:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Neither do you, really. This is just another of your not-so-thinly-veiled digs at organised religion. We get it, you think it's bollocks, so do a lot of us, but we realise it doesn't need to be shoehorned into every discussion we have. I dig at many things. I have no problem pointing out insanity, imomorality and injustice as I see it. If you think that me bringing this subject up is all about bringing up religion because I think that its bollocks then you have entirely miss the point. If they had released an article on the site about the players getting hammered at the weekend as part of their treasured beliefs, I would have still started a thread. Except I wouldn't be getting nearly the amount of negative feedback since I wouldn't be bringing up the such a touchy subject. I have already stated on here that all aspects of diet and lifestyle concern me when it come to athletes. I expect the players to be professional. That is all this thread is about. The fact that it is religion playing a role here is irrelevant. I'm just not afraid to critisise religiously inspired behaviour where I see it is warranted, unlike many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Why does it remind you of that? Have you seen any tangible sign that M'changama was unable to perform? I give up . Are you reading what I have to say or just making up your own points to argue against? The simple fact was that he couldn't do his job to the best of his abilty that day. Edited August 27, 2012 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Do you think that if the club had forced M'Changama to eat and drink during the day during Ramadan, that he would have played better? I don't. I think any benefit in terms of his physical condition (and as several people have said, he hasn't looked unfit) would have been outweighed by the detriment to his morale. A worthy point. Once you sign a player then this is obviously the dilemna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 He's been by far our liveliest player in three league games so far. He's also our leading scorer. If he's going to get slightly better because he's eating food or something, great. But this thread is :censored:. It's funny how I would agree with you on all the points you made. This thread was always likely to be :censored: since certain people go on the attack whenever religion is brought into a topic, and then I am forced into defensive mode to clarify positions I have already made clear several times over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 And as for the above re not training people on Ramadan, well that says more about the OP than anything else really. What does it say then? Don't beat around the bush if you want to make this personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pukka Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Simple question - please be honest.. would you rather us not have any muslim players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Simple question - please be honest.. would you rather us not have any muslim players? I couldn't give a toss. This isn't about religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I couldn't give a toss. This isn't about religion. Of course it isn't, dear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pukka Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) I couldn't give a toss. This isn't about religion. If thats true (I have no reason to doubt you) then fair play. But if it's not about religion - this comment is completely out of place: "I know Muslims who observe ramadan but have no problem the rest of the time drinking and/or smoking pot. This picking and choosing can largely a cultural thing with many Muslims. The "community" all do ramadan together and support each other, but they lack any conviction in their religion to take plenty of other crucial parts of their dogma seriously." This has no relevance to M'Changama's performance / fitness in any way. It's just your view on their religion and people who practice it. Edited August 27, 2012 by pukka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Of course it isn't, dear. That's not argument. That is just contradiction. Point to one piece of evidence that would suggest that I am anti-muslim or anti-religion, or that this thread is about religion. Barring the obvious fact that I think its all fantasy (which many people do - including on this board) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) If thats true (I have no reason to doubt you) then fair play. But if it's not about religion - this comment is completely out of place:"I know Muslims who observe ramadan but have no problem the rest of the time drinking and/or smoking pot. This picking and choosing can largely a cultural thing with many Muslims. The "community" all do ramadan together and support each other, but they lack any conviction in their religion to take plenty of other crucial parts of their dogma seriously."This is has no relevance to M'Changama's performance / fitness in any way. It's just your view on their religion and people who practice it. It was my view based my my observation of various friends and my girlfriend's personal experiences. We were talking about M'Changama's likelihood of being teetotal, and it was relevant to the points I raised in that post, so I fail to see how it was out of place. Edited August 27, 2012 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pukka Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) I was more focusing on the line of The "community" all do ramadan together and support each other, but they lack any conviction in their religion to take plenty of other crucial parts of their dogma seriously" Thats like someone saying. "Every white man is a racist" on the basis he has met plenty of racists. It's just not true. For every muslim doing one thing, there will be someone else doing it "correctly". I know some muslims who smoke and drink. I know some who practice what they preach. Edited August 27, 2012 by pukka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I really admire Muslim fasting. I can't even manage flesh-free Fridays. M'Changama might agree that he's not tip-top during Ramadan. He might also argue that some things are more important than footie, which is no less than the truth. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Pukka, but that was EXACTLY the point I made. How was that not clear? Allow me to highlight the crucial word you may have missed I know Muslims who observe ramadan but have no problem the rest of the time drinking and/or smoking pot. This picking and choosing can largely be a cultural thing with many Muslims. The "community" all do ramadan together and support each other, but they lack any conviction in their religion to take plenty of other crucial parts of their dogma seriously and then I finished by saying Youssef appears to take his religion seriously though, so I would wager that he looks after himself quite well in that regard. I was specifically acknowledging different approaches that different muslims have to their religion. Not once did I try to suggest that everyone was the same. Edited August 27, 2012 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) I really admire Muslim fasting. I can't even manage flesh-free Fridays. M'Changama might agree that he's not tip-top during Ramadan. He might also argue that some things are more important than footie, which is no less than the truth. - Blasphemy!! Edited August 27, 2012 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Pukka, but that was EXACTLY the point I made. How was that not clear? Allow me to highlight the crucial word you may have missed and then I finished by saying I was specifically acknowledging different approaches that different muslims have to their religion. Not once did I try to suggest that everyone was the same. In which case, why were the 'many Muslims' relevant if this is not about religion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 In which case, why were the 'many Muslims' relevant if this is not about religion? Why must I repeat everything more than once Stevie J? I was specifically acknowledging different approaches that different muslims have to their religion. We were talking about M'Changama's likelihood of being teetotal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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