24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Here's one for you: https://www.thieme-c...031-1286251.pdf In addition: The glycogen depletion that inevitablty results from 16 hours of fasting is bad for high intensity exercise. Glycogen stores are only finite, so loading in the mornings is only going to have a limited effect, any excess he eats will just be stored as fat and only used by the body at the low/moderate intensity required for fat burning. Within a few hours his glycogen stores will be depleted again. Remember, metabolism is not about all calories being equal. Fat is useless whenever heartrate is high. Only the blood glucose levels derived from your limited glycogen stores will help you along with any creatine you have left. When this runs out, you have a big problem. This, by the way, is why endurance athletes "hit the wall" after a period of time. So what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Ayn Rand. Cult of the individual. Bit mad. Bloke dressed as a woman. Perfect fit. Nah. Yiddo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) I don't care whether M'Changama played :censored:tily or brilliantly while he was fasting. A man must have his creed, and :censored: you for saying he shouldn't or can't. Getting pissed the night before the game isn't a creed. There is one problem with you right there. Why does "creed" get special consideration for you, where a general belief or lifestyle choice wouldn't? I know plenty of people who treat their alcohol consumption quite dogmatically. It's like LL was saying about special dispensations. and you lose, formally. I can't believe you resigned like that after the elephant trap laid in the posts about Godwin's law. You were stubborn for a while and then...bam. Caved in, just like that. Yawn Stop being so touchy as well. You react like you've been hit with a thrown brick when people have merely tickled you and blown in your ear. Just defending myself against foundless accusations, that's all. Now. Tell us all about your atheism. I can be persuaded. Seriously. What's there to tell? I'm just not convinced by any of the numerous theistic claims. Nothing more to "my atheism" than that. Edited August 30, 2012 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 So this is endorsed behaviour for this site is it Rummy? If you don't like childish behaviour, including from the admins, then get the hell out? Maybe I should throw a few cheap shots out there. Maybe you can be a Nazi, Stevie J can have ties to terrorism, Mark59 can be an anti semite, and 24TH can be seeking a theocratic state. It doesn't have to make sense, but hell....it a football forum. Let's every have a mud slinging match. Thing is, and this is where we differ - I don't give a :censored:e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Where is your evidence that by getting your calorie intake in 2 big meals as opposed to 3/4 meals in a day affects athletic performance? It does affect cognitive performance though - including decision-making, visuo-spatial skills, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Here's one for you: https://www.thieme-connect.de/ejournals/pdf/10.1055/s-0031-1286251.pdf In addition: The glycogen depletion that inevitablty results from 16 hours of fasting is bad for high intensity exercise. Glycogen stores are only finite, so loading in the mornings is only going to have a limited effect, any excess he eats will just be stored as fat and only used by the body at the low/moderate intensity required for fat burning. Within a few hours his glycogen stores will be depleted again. Remember, metabolism is not about all calories being equal. Fat is useless whenever heartrate is high. Only the blood glucose levels derived from your limited glycogen stores will help you along with any creatine you have left. When this runs out, you have a big problem. This, by the way, is why endurance athletes "hit the wall" after a period of time. So a journal you access via a German run website which is a pain in the ass to gain access to says it all does it? Funny how a review article I found in the British Journal of Sports Medicine says more research is required. It concedes that fasting for 12-24 hours MAY affect performance of elite athletes but mentions that this is mainly due to inability to hydrate. Like I said he hydrated against MK Dons and against Wednesday he was able to hydrate for all the second half. Plus any adverse effect on performance depends on the individual. I'm satisfied that having seen him against Wednesday and reports of him against MK his fasting didn't affect his performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 It does affect cognitive performance though - including decision-making, visuo-spatial skills, etc. I'll accept that but when he needed them (in the 2 competitive games) he only fasted for half a game out of 2, and by all accounts it didn't affect his performance in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 A creed is one of the things I want people to be allowed to have. Lots of other people want creeds too, and fair play to 'em. People have wanted creeds since before they wanted shelters. It'd be a rum deal if they were banned for the sake of efficiency or some other bull:censored: philosophical reason. Look at the C20th. More dead in secular wars than in all religious wars put together. What d'ye make of that Mr Atheism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 So a journal you access via a German run website which is a pain in the ass to gain access to says it all does it? Funny how a review article I found in the British Journal of Sports Medicine says more research is required. It concedes that fasting for 12-24 hours MAY affect performance of elite athletes but mentions that this is mainly due to inability to hydrate. Like I said he hydrated against MK Dons and against Wednesday he was able to hydrate for all the second half. Plus any adverse effect on performance depends on the individual. I'm satisfied that having seen him against Wednesday and reports of him against MK his fasting didn't affect his performance. I shall quote the abstract here, if you are having problems with the site: This study was designed to assess the effects of Ramadan-intermittent-fasting (RIF) and time-of-day on muscle power and fatigue during the Wingate test. In a randomized design, 10 football players completed a Wingate test at 07:00 and 17:00 h on 3 different occasions: one week before Ramadan (BR), the second week of Ramadan (SWR) and the fourth week of Ramadan (ER). There was an interval of 36-h between any 2 successive tests. During the Wingate test, peak power (PP), mean power (MP) and the fatigue index (FI) were recorded. While PP, MP and FI were greater in the evening than in the morning during BR (p<0.001), these diurnal variations in muscle power disappeared during the month of Ramadan (i. e., SWR and ER) due to a significant decrease in PP and MP in the evening (p<0.001). However, the diurnal variation in FI when measured at 17:00 h increased during this month (p<0.001). In addition, ratings of perceived exertion and fatigue were higher in the evening during Ramadan in comparison with BR. These results suggest that Ramadan might modify the circadian rhythm of muscle power and fatigue during the Wingate test by decreasing power output and increasing muscle fatigue at the time of the acrophase. So far as the rest of your statement goes, I can only explain the basic mechanics of metabolism during exercise, and energy storage so much. If you can't accept that, then that's fine. If your counter argument is another study who's only contribution is to say "further study needed", then i'm hardly likely to be convinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) A creed is one of the things I want people to be allowed to have. Lots of other people want creeds too, and fair play to 'em. Who suggested stopping someone have a creed? People have wanted creeds since before they wanted shelters. It'd be a rum deal if they were banned for the sake of efficiency or some other bull:censored: philosophical reason. Who suggested banning creeds? Look at the C20th. More dead in secular wars than in all religious wars put together. What d'ye make of that Mr Atheism? Holy Crap! Now who's trolling? a ) what the hell has this to do with anything? b )what does my lack of belief in gods have to do with your ideas on whether godly motivations were or weren't responsible for a bunch of wars? c ) does atheism or secularism equal persecution and death in your eyes? How can a lack of belief in one of many "creeds" (atheism) or taking a neutral view on religion (secularism) lead to ANYTHING? Edited August 30, 2012 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Wait, M'Changama is a Muslim? Well fancy that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) By the way, following on from my previous post, it would seem Godwin's law has well and truly been invoked now. Edited August 30, 2012 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 PhilStarbucksSilkySkills "...Nazi..." http://www.owtb.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=39412&pid=567220&st=0entry567220 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 c ) does atheism or secularism equal persecution and death in your eyes? I know what death equals in my eyes, Chuck Norris - and don't ever forget that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 http://www.owtb.co.u...=0 It was brought up before then actually. You are the first one to do so seriously though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 This thread's going to go on longer than Ramadan isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 OK Phil, would you have Freddy Eastwood in the squad knowing that he was thinking about stealing children from the crowd to sell for a profit and burgling houses on pretence of tarmacing your drive? He surely couldn't be 100% focused on the game, and that's for the whole season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I shall quote the abstract here, if you are having problems with the site: So far as the rest of your statement goes, I can only explain the basic mechanics of metabolism during exercise, and energy storage so much. If you can't accept that, then that's fine. If your counter argument is another study who's only contribution is to say "further study needed", then i'm hardly likely to be convinced. I'd actually read that study but unlike you I know a review article published in a better quality journal that says the same thing is more effective. That study is one study of Tunisian junior footballers who were participants in the research at the same time as they were playing youth level football. There was no mention of actual games played during the period of the study nor was there a mention of gap between games and conducting the tests they used to analyse the effects Ramadan has on performance. There was also no mention of environment factors and how any changes in environment were neutralised. The main conclusion is that training needs to be planned for Ramadan, OK fine but at a professional English club I'd already expect that. The other main conclusion is more experimental evidence is required. So whilst that study seemingly suggests one thing, it is but one study and to base your opinions on a single study in an inferior journal says a lot about you and very little about the point you are trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 So whilst that study seemingly suggests one thing, it is but one study and to base your opinions on a single study in an inferior journal says a lot about you and very little about the point you are trying to make. I haven't based it on any studies on this specific subject, since there aren't many, if any. I just gave you an example that I found after a google search. Finding research papers that cover the specifics that interest you, and accounting for all it's potential flaws, can be a tortuous process on the internet. I'm basing it on the already accepted science and hard facts regarding metabolism, my own previous studies and experiences within the field of fitness training. If you have a problem with anything i've specifically stated then please address why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I'd actually read that study but unlike you I know a review article published in a better quality journal that says the same thing is more effective. That study is one study of Tunisian junior footballers who were participants in the research at the same time as they were playing youth level football. There was no mention of actual games played during the period of the study nor was there a mention of gap between games and conducting the tests they used to analyse the effects Ramadan has on performance. There was also no mention of environment factors and how any changes in environment were neutralised. The main conclusion is that training needs to be planned for Ramadan, OK fine but at a professional English club I'd already expect that. The other main conclusion is more experimental evidence is required. So whilst that study seemingly suggests one thing, it is but one study and to base your opinions on a single study in an inferior journal says a lot about you and very little about the point you are trying to make. Cheers DOCTOR. Medical studies are a complex business and it's easy for the layman, such as PSSS, to get sucked in by nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Cheers DOCTOR. Medical studies are a complex business and it's easy for the layman, such as PSSS, to get sucked in by nonsense. He's a doctor. I'm a Personal Trainer. Who exactly is the layman when it comes to Exercise, Nutrition and related Metabolism? Edited August 30, 2012 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I haven't based it on any studies on this specific subject, since there aren't many, if any. I just gave you an example that I found after a google search. Finding research papers that cover the specifics that interest you, and accounting for all it's potential flaws, can be a tortuous process on the internet. I'm basing it on the already accepted science and hard facts regarding metabolism, my own previous studies and experiences within the field of fitness training. If you have a problem with anything i've specifically stated then please address why. Some basic physiological science suggests you might be right but there is some evidence to suggest the difference is not that significant. When you consider that most physiology is based on average Caucasian human males and a professional footballer with Youseff's ethnicity and background is probably going to differ from average enough that his 14-15 hours of fasting may not have affected his performance as much as the blokes you train, probably as a result of adapting his training regime. As evidenced by his performances in the games in question. Look this is going to go round in circles primarily because there is very little research on the topic. I'm happy that his fasting made no noticeable difference and you think otherwise. I'm going to leave it at that and let you argue with others, unless you make another statement that makes me want to correct you again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Some basic physiological science suggests you might be right but there is some evidence to suggest the difference is not that significant. When you consider that most physiology is based on average Caucasian human males and a professional footballer with Youseff's ethnicity and background is probably going to differ from average enough that his 14-15 hours of fasting may not have affected his performance as much as the blokes you train, probably as a result of adapting his training regime. But since he's still a human being, you are never going to get to a scenario where his body works dramatically differently. His body still uses nutriants in roughly the same way. You cannot have one human being of one ethinicity depleting his stores in a few hours, but someone from a different ethinicity being fully charged after 10. We're just not that different, what differences we have are quite subtle. He will be depleted and that has to affect his energy levels during games. He's said himself that he was tired. The only thing that could help to compensate for this would be any placebo related performance hikes. As evidenced by his performances in the games in question. The only thing that the two games in question evidenced were that he played very poorly. This of course evidences nothing because he may have played poorly anyway. This is why I keep saying how pointless it is to keep bringing his standard of performance up. Edited August 30, 2012 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 http://www.thesecretfootballer.com/articles/1537/cultural-explosion-can-spark-concerns/#pages-top - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I can't make that song work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.