PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 To pick up on your earlier point, you criticised those Muslims that " pick and choose" which bits to follow, and yet you critisicise M'Changama for not picking and choosing to abstain a major tenet of his religion. It's more of an observation of some Muslims than a criticism. An observation of a largely cultural or traditional phenomenon to many than of a religious one. If he abstained from Ramadan he might as well not call himself Muslim. People abstain from many aspects of whichever religion and still label themselves whatever they are happy with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Any reports in yet on what he had for breakfast? Or whether he ate breakfast at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Evidence? Or is this yet another hit and run attack on my character? I have never run away from any honest debate in my life. And I have always been willing to address any point posed to me. If you put yourself on a pedestal Phil, you have to prepaired to take the criticism. You know that you have brought something questionable up 'again' and you are just looking for an argument. If you look at 3 out of the 4 last topics you have started......... how suprising, they are of similar ilk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 To add to the Muslim debate, which Muslim group are we actually talking about here and do we know what group Mchangama belongs to? Just saying as it may actually influence how such players deal with things like fasting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latics4lifenotjustxmas Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Any reports in yet on what he had for breakfast? Or whether he ate breakfast at all? Let's pray to Allah that he's had his Weetabix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Your accusation was I can see his point of view, and obviously it makes no sense to me. Try looking at it from a truly neutral/apathetic view of religious ritual There isn't one. I also see that these guys are lucky enough to gifted enough be able to play the greatest game in the world for a decent living. Why would you not want to max out your potential by doing everything right. You only get one life. You only get one career. Make the most of it. That's my point of view anyway. This is true only if "decent living" means "lots of money", and if doing everything right means people doing what you want them to do. Edited August 28, 2012 by 24hoursfromtulsehill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creepy Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Gods dont exist and religion is load of :censored:e so why fast in the first place? Edited August 28, 2012 by creepy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Gods dont exist and religion is load of :censored:e so why fast in the first place? Anywhere in 10 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Any reports in yet on what he had for breakfast? Or whether he ate breakfast at all? Bacon and sausage barm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Bacon and sausage barm. From a halal only KFC? I am hoping to have a quiet one this afternoon so I will get the popcorn in a read through this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scratch2000uk Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 It's up to the manager, If Dickov thought M'Changama would be adversely affected by fasting then he probably would have dropped him to the bench and explained his reasons for it, Seeing as he didn't, he must have thought that his fasting didn't affect him enough to put him on the bench or, that nobody would have notiiced, as the rest of the team are a shower of :censored:e anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepingthe Faith Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Anywhere in 10 minutes. Except Tulse Hill. He can make that tomoz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Except Tulse Hill. He can make that tomoz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hands on Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Pointless thread! There would be a problem if he didn't drink but as he did drink for the MK Dons game there was no problem. Digestion takes effort so playing on an empty stomach is not a bad idea - something I successfully did when competing in my youth. You just have to drink. I wish I had his energy!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 If you put yourself on a pedestal Phil, you have to prepaired to take the criticism. You know that you have brought something questionable up 'again' and you are just looking for an argument. If you look at 3 out of the 4 last topics you have started......... how suprising, they are of similar ilk. If your criticism is that I am looking for an argument, or that I don't have a problem bringing up contentious issues, then what is your issue? If it's contentious then it is likely to fuel debate (with those who can handle a debate). Of course there will be argument. Do you think I should only bring up topics where everyone agrees with me? Do you think If I hold an opinion on something that I don't see anyone else bringing up, that I should stay silent for fear of upsetting the unchallenged opinions of the consensus? Is it my "agenda" to fuel debate? To seek conversation on a subject and bring up topics that I see as a little too unquestioned? If you want to class that as an agenda then have at it. I really don't see your problem. The problems start when I am accused of positions I do not hold, nor have I implied. The problem starts when a few numpties like to get personal and throw honest throw debate out of the window. I am not afraid to be disagreed with. I just expect people to act civilly as they do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 There isn't one. Uh...ok This is true only if "decent living" means "lots of money", and if doing everything right means people doing what you want them to do. No. I was talking about them doing whatever gives them the best chance of maximising their career . You should be a spin doctor for a politician or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) I'm purely speculating here, but Changy may have done some of the following: Got up to peak fitness prior to Ramadan when he could eat and drink normally Not needed boot camp to lose a gut after going abroad roasting, drinking and spitroasting in summer Have maintained his fitness with runs,training in the in the night Have carefully worked out the best things to eat at the beginning and end of the day to maximise his endurance Slept for part of the days to minimise the impact on his diet And Recognised that the days are only 9 hours long in Oldham Incidentally Ramadan will fall entirely in the closed season next year and the one after if I have got it the right way around (I think). TBH I would be a bit worried if he played a match without water but the rest of it is all stuff you can work around for a few weeks a year. Edited August 28, 2012 by leeslover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 The man himself speaks: Just because I was unable to eat or drink between sunrise and sunset was not a problem. I was fine and was able to run and to train and play matches. May be I was a little bit tired, but for me it was no big deal. It is very much a case of being in the head and, as I am doing Ramadan for God, I don't think of not being able to eat or drink. I still had plenty to eat and drink which isn't always the case for poor people who sometimes get by on one meal each day. The key word is in the first line. Unable. M'Changama is no more able to have a diet of which PhilSilkySkills might approve than, for instance, PhilSilkySkills is able to get down on his knees and say a decent prayer. A man must have a code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepingthe Faith Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 poking sticks get yer sticks cheaper than chips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Uh...ok Yeah. No. I was talking about them doing whatever gives them the best chance of maximising their career . You should be a spin doctor for a politician or something. M'Changama might have chosen to maximise his moral life instead. I don't think he has because I don't see the two things as exclusive. Why don't you e-mail someone at the club and arrange a time for you to put your accusations (of letting his team mates and the fans down, and of failing to maximise his career) to the man himself? Make sure I get an invite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) I'm purely speculating here, but Changy may have done some of the following: Got up to peak fitness prior to Ramadan when he could eat and drink normally Not needed boot camp to lose a gut after going abroad roasting, drinking and spitroasting in summer Have maintained his fitness with runs,training in the in the night Have carefully worked out the best things to eat at the beginning and end of the day to maximise his endurance Slept for part of the days to minimise the impact on his diet And Recognised that the days are only 9 hours long in Oldham Incidentally Ramadan will fall entirely in the closed season next year and the one after if I have got it the right way around (I think). TBH I would be a bit worried if he played a match without water but the rest of it is all stuff you can work around for a few weeks a year. Excellent points. The idea that he wouldn't have planned this quite meticulously is bollocks - as borne out by his displays on the field. The law says you're not allowed to discriminate on religious grounds, but there is an out - health and safety. If someone's health would be affected, you can ignore it. I'm sure there was a discussion prior to the MK Dons game, with Dickov or someone saying, "There's no way you're playing in that heat without taking on some fluids" and M'Changama saying, "Fair enough." And this meticulousness and sensible attitude leads some people to think M'Changama has let his team mates and the fans down. Jesus, Mary, Joseph and all the Apostles! Edited August 28, 2012 by 24hoursfromtulsehill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Burns Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Only a Latics fan could find something to criticse one of our better players with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) If your criticism is that I am looking for an argument, or that I don't have a problem bringing up contentious issues, then what is your issue? If it's contentious then it is likely to fuel debate (with those who can handle a debate). Of course there will be argument. Do you think I should only bring up topics where everyone agrees with me? Do you think If I hold an opinion on something that I don't see anyone else bringing up, that I should stay silent for fear of upsetting the unchallenged opinions of the consensus? Is it my "agenda" to fuel debate? To seek conversation on a subject and bring up topics that I see as a little too unquestioned? If you want to class that as an agenda then have at it. I really don't see your problem. The problems start when I am accused of positions I do not hold, nor have I implied. The problem starts when a few numpties like to get personal and throw honest throw debate out of the window. I am not afraid to be disagreed with. I just expect people to act civilly as they do so. You perhaps don't realise that you are provoking the reactions against you? Yes its a good point that you raise and yes, why should it not be debated, but if you're going to start off by having a go at Mchangama, or Ballotelli like did in your last similar thread, then you're going to get peoples backs up. Edited August 28, 2012 by jimsleftfoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Bacon and sausage barm. why's he eating in Manchestoh with Boardman's just round the corner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 You perhaps don't realise that you are provoking the reactions against you? Yes its a good point that you raise and yes, why should it not be debated, but if you're going to start off by having a go at Mchangama, or Ballotelli like did in your last similar thread, then you're going to get peoples backs up. Perhaps then the problem lies with those whose backs are up simply because I "had a go at" or criticised a player for something specific. Again, I have no problem with people having opposing opinions. I am more than happy to discuss those opinions. If that's what they do, then all is fine. But If they simply get offended because I say something they disagree with about someone they like, then I would suggest that it is they that have the problem. If they can keep it civil, they will get nothing but civil discussion back no matter how much we disagree. If they wish to speculate on personality traits or stances that I do not have (and pretty much ad hominem the discussion), if they wish to misrepresent things that I say and argue against those (ie strawman) or if they just want to flat out label me a hater of <insert group of people here>, then they are acting like children and simply sabotaging a potentially constructive discussion simply because they are offended. To say I provoke a reaction from these people, on a logical level, is akin to saying that a woman in a low cut top is provoking sex crime from random strangers. It is they who have the problem with their behaviour. I'm just a guy with an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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