Ackey Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Morning all, I've read a lot in the last week or so on here about how LJ will improve players and make us a better team. I hope it's true. However it's literally the exact same thing we said about Dickov when he arrived. What is also being said is how Dickov didn't improve the players, that they stagnated and suffered under his leadership. It's the same thing said about Dave Penny, Ronnie Moore, John Sheridan... probably more than I care to recall. So my question is, are we a club which causes players to stagnate or are we subject to confirmation bias, ignoring the good work done with players who did improve and instead focusing on those who are already at their natural best (by no means a criticism of them, but merely evidence of the fact we can only afford a set level of player). That's it really. Just been on my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 My recollection with Dickov is it was more the prospect of an exciting style of play rather than coaching and organisation. I know what you mean though, there'd be no surprise if the good game Johnson is talking comes to nothing either. In the meantime I'm daring to dream & Dickov wasn't able to tap into how his dad engineered promotions with two different teams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Wight Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 But we have already seen the improvement that the team has made under the leadership of johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh Heck C-Beck Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Dickov was a breath of fresh air when he arrived and we had some cracking games that some people tend to forget. Because of this he was quite rightly given time to improve but he perhaps was given too much time when it was apparent there was no plan b. Johnson has already shown improvements last season getting us out of the mire hence optimism returning. Especially in terms of some of the homegrown lads like belizieka Mellor and millar. Therefore deserves the curren plaudits IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_balls Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) It's been said before and i'll say it again, Dickov started really well, up until the December/January 6 weeks postponements we were on a roll and were sitting comfy in the top 6. The team were playing well and it was a joy to watch, think Plymouth at home, Bournemouth at home etc. Then creaks appeared just before the enforced break when we let a 3-0 lead slip against Exeter, then Hartlepool trounced us 3-0 IIRC, then it all went sour when Soton rolled up and smashed us 6-0. After that game, Dickov lost any appetite he had to attack and went on the defensive, another crushing 5-0 loss to Peterborough was the end of us, how he managed another season and half is beyond me. Don't forget though despite the fact he had the team playing so well, he inherited players such as Taylor, Stephens, Lee who all left on his watch. I remember playing Sheff U, the first game of his second season, and I knew we were going to struggle as all we did was lump it up front to Matt Smith, that season and the one after were utter dross. (Except the brilliant FA Cup run that i'll never forget) Onto Johnson and a few have remarked about him talking the talk and being a salesman, who's all mouth and no action etc... BUT, there has already been action, firstly keeping us up, that side last season was doomed to failure, but he kept us up with games to spare. He now has his own team, which is shaping up very nicely, and there are some similarities between Johnson and when Dickov first took over, but again Johnson seems to have a plan, and then another one and another, he has a brilliant support network around him, hell he can pick the phone up and talk to his Dad, who has managed a number of promotions and managed to get Yeovil, yes Yeovil to the Championship. He ping pings deserves the time he's being/going to be given, and i'll hazard a guess that the football on offer this season will be a dramatic improvement on the last couple of seasons, with lots of goals on show, (in both nets) and we'll have a team that will fight until the last minute, I for one am really looking forward to it. Up the Blues PS And to answer your question, I think the mediocrity of the club and the mindset of stagnation and regression really has killed a few managers off who couldn't live with the expectation they created when it looked like we may finally turn the corner....Moore, Sheridan, Dickov... Edited July 25, 2013 by alex_balls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 Therefore deserves the curren plaudits IMO I'm certainly not looking to put LJ down, that's for sure. I just question the mentality parts of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 One thing is clear already with Johnson. If he fails it will be whilst entertaining us. High pressure, high line, plenty of pace and flair suggest that the level of success that we attain will be down to how solid our defending is. He comes across (so far) as highly organised, motivated, with plenty of ideas and good man management skills. Time will tell, but overall I think we have better reasons than we have had since the Big Joe days to be optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 LJ was not happy with some at Burnley; "Seven or eight gave poor performances and have knocked themselves down a peg," he explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 He now has his own team, which is shaping up very nicely, and there are some similarities between Johnson and when Dickov first took over, but again Johnson seems to have a plan, and then another one and another, he has a brilliant support network around him, hell he can pick the phone up and talk to his Dad, who has managed a number of promotions and managed to get Yeovil, yes Yeovil to the Championship. Don't forget we signed Dickov on the back of that same "network" ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midsblue Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 He's injected pace, width & excitement back into the team. He's made all more attack-minded and looking across the front four; there's opportunities aplenty and goals to be scored! The above will not only win over the fans but entice a few back. We may struggle - who knows - but we'll struggle fighting and playing attractive football on the ground as opposed to route one lump it forward to the big man. Assuming Rooney is already factored into the budget then if only SC can perform miracles and squeeze whatever and from wherever to boost the budget so LJ can strengthen the back four plus possibly another CM. We'll surprise people and LJ is a complete breath if fresh air opposed to the dour Dickov. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Dickov was a breath of fresh air when he arrived A Sarin Gas attack would have been a breath of fresh air after Penney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hands on Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I'm sure we will experience the difference between Dickov and LJ because I expect LJ to keep faith with his ideas - he has shown the strength of character to do that. This season is going to be something of an experiment and I expect a better outcome because we will be trying to win rather than attempting not to lose. Give me four more wins at home and I will be delighted. Now next season I will expect a top six finish! In LJ I trust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_balls Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Don't forget we signed Dickov on the back of that same "network" ! I suppose it does come across a bit, 'well his dads done it so why can't he?', thats a trap I/we musn't fall into, and I take the point about the network comment, although Dickov was more contacts rather than networks, as he'd played at high level clubs. I can't fault Dickov for the players he brought in, it's the way he managed them and his lack of tactical nouse, the prime example being Dave Jones putting him in his place in the League Cup 1st round. Forgetting the 'support network' for a second, Johnson has earnt the trust in him, by as I mentioned earlier, keeping us up, his proactivity, the players he's brought in, the way he wasnts to play some attractive football, but that's not going to win us the league, but what is going to ensure we have a relatively successful season (or even an improvement on last season) is the fact that he seems to have everything planned, and then some, he comes across as having the knowledge and expertise of handling the situations that are going to come his way, having won promotion from this division, he should know what he's talking about. Time will tell if he is indeed the salesman some people think he is, i'm definitely willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 I suppose it does come across a bit, 'well his dads done it so why can't he?', thats a trap I/we musn't fall into, and I take the point about the network comment, although Dickov was more contacts rather than networks, as he'd played at high level clubs. I can't fault Dickov for the players he brought in, it's the way he managed them and his lack of tactical nouse, the prime example being Dave Jones putting him in his place in the League Cup 1st round. Forgetting the 'support network' for a second, Johnson has earnt the trust in him, by as I mentioned earlier, keeping us up, his proactivity, the players he's brought in, the way he wasnts to play some attractive football, but that's not going to win us the league, but what is going to ensure we have a relatively successful season (or even an improvement on last season) is the fact that he seems to have everything planned, and then some, he comes across as having the knowledge and expertise of handling the situations that are going to come his way, having won promotion from this division, he should know what he's talking about. Time will tell if he is indeed the salesman some people think he is, i'm definitely willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I agree wholeheartedly in giving him the benefit of the doubt and I would hope that he goes on to be a great decision for us. I guess the point I'm getting to (and I only realise this from the conversation here, not a premeditated one) is that we're building him up for a fall - just like we did with Dickov and even Moore (less so DP). Hopefully when we're battling it out in mid-table and we've had to change to a more defensive system (inevitable unless you have the most gifted of players or a truly world class, exceptional, system) that people look back and think about the context. Dickov came in people claim (rightly in part) he lacked plan B... well to be fair six months in we moved to plan B when teams realised we'd play attacking and we were not infallible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aarondo Westy Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 For me when Lj said he wants players who want to be footballers and not just have the image of a footballer that was what I liked and judging by his signings so far he is getting there with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I agree with Alex Balls first paragraph almost completely. I am still sceptical, altough LJ did turn a lost team into one that stayed up, but he has lost more than half a team. Even Fergie would not be able to get them to all gel in a few weeks. And yet he may replicate PD, in terms of starting well, and talking the talk etc. It does seem different this time. But all in all, far too early to tell. Come Feb before we can call it, we might be bottom of the table the whole time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I agree wholeheartedly in giving him the benefit of the doubt and I would hope that he goes on to be a great decision for us. I guess the point I'm getting to (and I only realise this from the conversation here, not a premeditated one) is that we're building him up for a fall - just like we did with Dickov and even Moore (less so DP). Hopefully when we're battling it out in mid-table and we've had to change to a more defensive system (inevitable unless you have the most gifted of players or a truly world class, exceptional, system) that people look back and think about the context. Dickov came in people claim (rightly in part) he lacked plan B... well to be fair six months in we moved to plan B when teams realised we'd play attacking and we were not infallible. Pretty much what I was trying to say, too early to proclaim him as the Messiah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_balls Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I agree wholeheartedly in giving him the benefit of the doubt and I would hope that he goes on to be a great decision for us. I guess the point I'm getting to (and I only realise this from the conversation here, not a premeditated one) is that we're building him up for a fall - just like we did with Dickov and even Moore (less so DP). Hopefully when we're battling it out in mid-table and we've had to change to a more defensive system (inevitable unless you have the most gifted of players or a truly world class, exceptional, system) that people look back and think about the context. Dickov came in people claim (rightly in part) he lacked plan B... well to be fair six months in we moved to plan B when teams realised we'd play attacking and we were not infallible. Yeah I can agree with that comment, if it doesn't go as well as I (and I presume from the comments on this board) many others believe it will then the positivity towards him/the team could change very quickly. The way the first 10 fixtures have fallen could help him no end, Stevenage, Walsall, Peterborough, Port Vale, Tranmere, PNE, Rotherham, Crewe, Crawley, Orient. The bold teams are home fixtures, and all are winnable IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Dickov was a breath of fresh air when he arrived and we had some cracking games that some people tend to forget. Because of this he was quite rightly given time to improve but he perhaps was given too much time when it was apparent there was no plan b. Johnson has already shown improvements last season getting us out of the mire hence optimism returning. Especially in terms of some of the homegrown lads like belizieka Mellor and millar. Therefore deserves the curren plaudits IMO Honest question here. Dickov was succeeding arguably the most despised and unpopular manager Oldham Athletic AFC have ever appointed. Bearing this in mind, does anyone think even the reappointment of Ronnie Moore would have been considered a breath of fresh air in this context? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Yeah I can agree with that comment, if it doesn't go as well as I (and I presume from the comments on this board) many others believe it will then the positivity towards him/the team could change very quickly. The way the first 10 fixtures have fallen could help him no end, Stevenage, Walsall, Peterborough, Port Vale, Tranmere, PNE, Rotherham, Crewe, Crawley, Orient. The bold teams are home fixtures, and all are winnable IMO. Every single one of them is winnable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slystallone Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 A Sarin Gas attack would have been a breath of fresh air after Penney. I've said before, whoever followed Penney into the role was onto a winner from the start. Only slight improvements to the playing side of things, or to media handling, would look (and did) huge leaps from DP's time in charge. As PD was actually a really nice chap, it only increased the positivity further after getting rid of one of the worst managers I've seen in my time watching us. Looking back now, the performances we pretty good, but I can't feeling they weren't that good - but for me, it was just the feeling they were so much better than the dross of Penney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Meh. For one reason or another I missed a lot of Dickov's first 6 months. He had the disadvantage of having a lot of Penney's deadwood still at the club. But when he got rid of them the performances went downhill. He initially gave our youngsters a chance but then preferred to bring in other youngsters from elsewhere or on loan and they jumped the pecking order. That is somewhat the problem with the question asked in the OP. Sometimes the players who are supposed to improve at this club get moved aside for others who are at another club and/or who have reached their peak but that peak is slightly better than our players. Sometimes our players get injured and that either stops or significantly slows their progress (see Ryan Brooke and Lewis Alessandra). I think at this level that is going to happen as we can't afford the extra medical staff that would reduce the risk of it. I think LDJ has shown so far with his signings and selections that perhaps it won't be the case with him. For example, picking Mellor to play CM, as opposed to getting a loan in or playing someone else slightly out of position. Personally, I wonder if some managers saw TP as a threat and didn't want to pick our youngsters because that might mean TP gets their job if those youngsters do well. LDJ knows TP doesn't want the job, because he would have got it ahead of him after winning the first 3 league games and getting a good cup result. He might be more interested in listening to TP than it seems some of our previous managers were. Time will tell, but I'm hopeful under LDJ we improve and so does he. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshaw Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 It's been said before and i'll say it again, Dickov started really well, up until the December/January 6 weeks postponements we were on a roll and were sitting comfy in the top 6. The team were playing well and it was a joy to watch, think Plymouth at home, Bournemouth at home etc. Then creaks appeared just before the enforced break when we let a 3-0 lead slip against Exeter, then Hartlepool trounced us 3-0 IIRC, then it all went sour when Soton rolled up and smashed us 6-0. After that game, Dickov lost any appetite he had to attack and went on the defensive, another crushing 5-0 loss to Peterborough was the end of us, how he managed another season and half is beyond me. I agree with the above analysis. time will tell with Mr Dickov, if he is able to forget those defeats. New Club, New Players-------but same memory. Could be interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Dickov stagnated and Latics are under-resourced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 If LJ's results had been on par with Guardiola's at Bayern I might be proclaiming LJ!!!! Bayern's pre-season so far:Bayern Fanclub Wildenau 1-15 Bayern Munich TSV Regen 1-9 Bayern Munich Paulaner Dream Team 0-13 Bayern Munich Brescia 0-3 Bayern Munich Sonnehof Grossapac 0-6 Bayern Munich Hansa Rostock 0-4 Bayern Munich Hamburg 0-4 Bayern Munich Borussia Monchengladbach 1-5 Bayern Munich Bayern Munich 2-0 Barcelona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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