LJ - The Modern Manager

[mikejh45]

You think the modern game is straight?

Still waiting for some evidence instead of hearsay.

[garcon]

You think the modern game is straight?

 

Not remotely, but it's a hell of a jump to go from that to assuming LJ was "more than likely given the Oldham job through back handers".

[Dave_Og]

Bad example moved on as soon as he could.

Missed the point entirely. Heigh ho.

[Wardie]

Fair play to you Postman Matt for putting forward your views, I agree with some of what you say but disagree with the overall thrust.

 

The points I would like to pick up on are the pitchside antics, an issue that has been picked up on by numerous posters about numerous managers. How much influence on a game does a manager have by waving his arms around, bellowing instructions to players, doing that Copacabana style revolving hand thing or anything else an "animated manager" does? In my view very little, entertaining for those sat near him but as to its impact on the result I'm not convinced.

 

Another point I would like to pick up on is the same as Diego:

 

 

 

I don't see that the club has any potential beyond lower championship with cup runs to the quarters, maybe semis. Put a sugar daddy in place and we may hit 3-4 seasons in the premiership but the crowds won't flock to BP or wherever just on the promise of premiership football, hasn't worked for Wigan.

 

Finally, the style of manager you would prefer in my eyes is a football dinosaur, a large number of clubs have tried this kind of manager and they are enjoying the success that this limited style of manager brings.

 

I applaud the board for taking a punt on LJ, the experiment is a worthwhile one but it is long term, the dinosaur manager can bring short term success but as we have seen with numerous clubs it fizzles out and reverts to square one. I believe that LJ is looking at things longer term, they way he talks about the game and describes his footballing philosophy is very different to many a manager I've listened to.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day, a player like JCH isn't a world beater overnight and Rooney doesn't become a donkey in September. We started this season with an experiment, Mellor at CB, a few games in he got injured and LJ had to shuffle, brought Mills in and we've persisted with this. Mellor gets fit, played in CM and being the young lad that he is lashes out at a more experienced pro who had been niggling him under the nose of the ref. Wes comes back into the side and being a third division player shows that he is good going backwards, not as good going forwards but has added solidity to the middle. We've only lost games by the odd goal, we haven't been trounced in any game, in fact we've trounced the other teams in a Brendan Rodgers "We won the passing" style. It has taken Liverpool a while but I bet most of their fans are enjoying being second in their league currently.

 

Let's see where we are towards the end of the season, at this stage of the season players still have their stabilisers on.

Excellent response and spot-on.

[Wardie]

I don't think your seeing the underlying main theme of the post.

 

This is a man whose had a career handed on a silver platter whether its on merit or not he for most of his career chose the security of being round his Father, and more than likely was given the Oldham job through back handers and contact knowledge

 

I would love for him to succeed but he seems to me to be more of a coach and stats man than a leader of men maybe he should have took the coaching role with his good friend Brendan.

So, the underlying theme is, that he doesn't deserve a chance? That he has lied and cheated his way into a manager's job?

Your solution is the 'dinosaur' route..the one that worked at Tranmere for a good part of last season before it collapsed spectacularly?

I don't expect the same to happen at 'un-fancied' Leyton Orient because, in effect, they have achieved exactly what the Latics are attempting, through stability, common-sense management and playing football.

[real]

I don't think your seeing the underlying main theme of the post.

 

This is a man whose had a career handed on a silver platter whether its on merit or not he for most of his career chose the security of being round his Father, and more than likely was given the Oldham job through back handers and contact knowledge

 

I would love for him to succeed but he seems to me to be more of a coach and stats man than a leader of men maybe he should have took the coaching role with his good friend Brendan.

 

Wow - wild allegations.

[Postman Matt]

Its an assumption not allegation their is a difference.

 

Allegations lead to court cases, assumptions don't.

 

I am in the scaffolding game but i don't put it up, see another assumption.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Postman Matt

[opinions4u]

Silly.

[mikejh45]

And your assumption is based on what exactly?

Edited October 2, 2013 by mikejh45

[pukka]

"That Lampard bloke only ever got in the West Ham team because his uncle was the manager. Whatever happened to him....?"

 

Here is Harry Redknapp defending his decision to play Lampard at a fans forum. The fans are unhappy he sold Scott Canham instead of Frank.

 

 

 

 

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/west_ham_utd/152070/retro-football-harry-redknapp-defends-17-year-old-frank-lampard-from-uppity-west-ham-fan-video.html

Edited October 2, 2013 by pukka

[Postman Matt]

And your assumption is based on what exactly?

Because he shops at Baby Gap

[alex_balls]

I'm not convinced by LJ at all, and it appears that when you don't follow the flock of sheep on here, you get pillored. See Chaddy End Regular on the JCH thread and now Postman Matt.

 

Johnson is nothing more than a salesman, and all this talk of us playing sexy football, and the best football we've ever seen, I think you've been blinkered by Penny and Dickov.

 

We've won 2 games, that is appalling, and people keep commenting drivel such as "Yeah we lost again, but we're playing well"....unbelievable.

 

Looking back at the games I've seen, and i've seen 7 out of 11 live and PNE on tv, we haven't been great at all.

 

Stevenage, we looked good going forward, but was shocking at the back, two penalties saved us, and a certain Mr Baxter who we are missing greatly.

Derby, started ok, faded badly, but acceptable against a higher opposition team.

Walsall - Appalling, it was just like last season that game.

Port Vale - Highly entertaining in the end, but result would have been much different had Hughes bagged the pen. Overran in first half.

Tranmere - Didn't have a shot on target, highly frustrating afternoon.

PNE (On TV) - The only game I can say we were brilliant, and somewhere near as good as the fans are making out.

Rotherham - Average, another where we were overran, only came into it when the siege mentality kicked in and then conceeded in injury time die to the keeper knocking it back out into the middle.

Crewe - Absolutely abysmal. Against a team that hasn't even SCORED away from home, never mind won, and who had suffered two 3-0 losses on the bounce, and people claim it was a good draw.

 

We've conceeded 5 penalties, we have conceeded first in every league game bar Port Vale, we have a left back at centre half, we change the CM pairing every game, we change the wingers every game, we change the forwards every game, we then put a forward on the left wing, we've got a limp wristed rash goalkeeper that has given away two penalties (who's not even our own player.... DROP HIM) we've got a striker who hit the post v crewe when it was harder to miss, who then goes and hits the bar from point blank, the post and straight at the keeper the next game....need I go on??

[manshaw]

That's a big post for a troll.

Not many spelling mistakes either

[Postman Matt]

Be careful Alex you will be cast aside like me.

 

That is quite possibly the best post i have ever read fully backs up part of what i am trying to get through, but its ok because we are winning the passing game percentages.

 

Comparing us with Liverpool is laughable and delusional yes they started last season playing nice football but FFS they had John-Jo Shelvey in centre midfielder, what did they do they spent big and massively improved there squad with players like Sturridge, Coutinho, Toure etc etc

 

But its ok in 12 months time we might beat Man Utd, some people need to get real, LJ messed up in 1 area big time and thats not off loading James Weslowski because for me it typifies everything thats been wrong with us for the past 2 seasons and whilst he remains at the club the attitude and overall dynamic of the club won't change.

[manshaw]

It is a criticism i am paying customer i am allowed to he isn't the second coming and the honeymoon period is well and truly over, we are like a good looking girl with a terrible personality everyone wouldn't mind banging her but they most certainly wouldn't marry her.

 

As to potential all you have to do is look at the early 90s to see whats possible with the right investment, last time i checked the population of Oldham has grown since the glory days back then and the FA Cup run shows people will come when whats on offer is worth coming too.

I would like proof that you are a paying customer, or is someone paying you to put such utter garbage on here

[Pine Villains]

It is a criticism i am paying customer...

 

Oh dear.

 

You think the modern game is straight?

 

is it bollocks, but the people have the power make a stand against it. if you don't like it, act against it.

[Postman Matt]

I would like proof that you are a paying customer, or is someone paying you to put such utter garbage on here

Right no problem i away this weekend on holiday but at the next home game or even Preston next Tuesday you can watch me walk through the turnstiles if you like.

[Lee Sinnott]

Bourney, give it up lad...

[mikeroyboy]

Now when LJ was appointed nobody seen it coming lets be honest but first of all lets look at his playing career.

 

Aside from a few stints in Scotland 95% of Lee's career has been alongside Daddy Johnson, don't get me wrong he was a good player but ultimately he was his fathers son and therefore 1st name on the team sheet.

 

Has he got older and his playing days were coming to an end he has been fast tracked into management, using modern footballing techniques (classroom taught) and being very good at Microsoft Powerpoint presentations he has found himself in football management at a club that couldn't afford anyone else lets be honest.

 

Now this isn't a lets flog LJ thread because his enthiusiam is brilliant but so was Dickov's but its clear as day he isn't ready for our level of management.

 

He is 1/5th into the season and hasn't got a what you would call his nailed on XI, yes their has been lots of new arrivals but this is ultimately his squad now and their are cracks already.

 

The Rusnak episode for instance, now i don't take part in idol gossip unless its about Tom Taiwo but what was posted on this thread about what Rusnak had apparantely said regarding LJ's attitude and actions in training is what i believe to be true i've heard it from several people and they were all singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

OAFC does not need an ego bigger than the demolition site opposite the main stand we need an old fashioned in your face manager who knows how to mold a group of players not deemed good enough elsewhere and willing to play for less than other clubs can offer and are willing to play and do anyway it takes to get out this division.

 

I firmly believe we have needed a Gary Megson/Martin Allen type of character ever since Dowie failed, because 17 seasons in the same division for a club with the potential like our's simply isn't good enough and to simply settle for surviving season in, season out again is just an indication of how far we have sunk.

 

So back to the appointment of LJ, I for one was very negative about his appointment and if it wasn't for a group of individuals putting themselves in the shop window for future moves then we wouldn't have stayed up last season.

 

He likes to flaunt himself in the media another thing which has been mentioned and stated Rooney was his number one target yet he doesn't know how to play him or play off him (if he has researched him he would know he isnt a target man) as i believe there is a player to saviour in him, he has started to chop and change tactics now and slowly is starting to use PD's spin in the media for when we get beat, we don't seem to be able to keep a clean sheet nor learning from mistakes made in previous games.

 

Pitchside their doesn't seem to be a lot of influence being exhumed to the players on the pitch and he much prefers to have it out with officials and opposing managers and assistants, we have the office junior sat pitchside and a recently retired player fast tracked into a first team coaching role, as well as a fitness coach and gk coach going above beyond what is ultimately their job roles.

 

Finally IF LJ took any notice of his Dad in action throughout his career he would know the number 1 tool a successful manager needs especially one striving to be succesful in management is an experienced right hand man he is the one who you turn to when your struggling he is the link between players and management and in my eyes the most important cog in the wheel of success, i also for one don't Simon Corney recognises this and wouldn't stand in the way of any appointment LJ deemed necessary because Paul Murray isnt the answer, he needs to given time to progress his coaching career also.

Your analysis of our present situation and most clubs merely highlights how treacherous and almost impossible the job is.

 

But along with a few valid ‘opinions’ you have managed to include some unverifiable assumptions (such as other experienced managers, who have also known failure incidentally, would have been a better option), how could anyone know that? Even Sir Alex, would have been a ‘punt’ in our position. The very best (history of a modicum of success) managers get fired on a very regular basis. That is a verifiable fact.

 

I find it incredible that any fan considers staying in L1 for seventeen years is failure. They really are not paying attention to the bodies that have been plummeting into or through the bottom of our little cocoon for the last 25yrs and before anyone mentions ‘ambition’ that word in my opinion is reserved for personal achievement, not expecting someone else to achieve it for you.

 

Hearsay and rumour are not accepted in court, nor should they be on here.

 

Johnson has not had a fair crack yet and I am certainly prepared to let Corney give him the rest of the season. In general he has been good for the club. If he has come into management with, say, a theoretical 50 point business plan it would prudent for him to assume not all 50 points will be a success. That is for him to deal with or someone else will.

[Zorrro]

Bourney, give it up lad...

That's like asking him to stop winding up United fans on Facebook.

[garcon]

On the face of it, a post that has taken that degree of thought and construction deserves an equally well constructed response replying to each point in turn.

 

But on closer inspection, I've realised that every single word of it is complete and utter bollocks.

 

 

 

Nah, I honestly don't believe this guy is a troll. Don't make the mistake of thinking everyone with a negative view is a troll.

 

I reckon these are honest opinions, honestly held. I just happen to think he's wrong. If I get chance, I will try to do him the justice of a more considered reply explaining why I think he's wrong.

 

On reflection, I refer the Honourable Gentlemen to the answer I made earlier.

[4froale]

"That Lampard bloke only ever got in the West Ham team because his uncle was the manager. Whatever happened to him....?"

 

Here is Harry Redknapp defending his decision to play Lampard at a fans forum. The fans are unhappy he sold Scott Canham instead of Frank.

 

 

 

 

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/west_ham_utd/152070/retro-football-harry-redknapp-defends-17-year-old-frank-lampard-from-uppity-west-ham-fan-video.html

brilliant, bet that guy asking the questions feels like a right prat now

[garcon]

brilliant, bet that guy asking the questions feels like a right prat now

 

Being a football fan, he'll probably insist he was right and use some weird logic, conspiracy theories and wild assumptions to justify his case.

[alex_balls]

Your analysis of our present situation and most clubs merely highlights how treacherous and almost impossible the job is.

 

But along with a few valid ‘opinions’ you have managed to include some unverifiable assumptions (such as other experienced managers, who have also known failure incidentally, would have been a better option), how could anyone know that? Even Sir Alex, would have been a ‘punt’ in our position. The very best (history of a modicum of success) managers get fired on a very regular basis. That is a verifiable fact.

 

I find it incredible that any fan considers staying in L1 for seventeen years is failure. They really are not paying attention to the bodies that have been plummeting into or through the bottom of our little cocoon for the last 25yrs and before anyone mentions ‘ambition’ that word in my opinion is reserved for personal achievement, not expecting someone else to achieve it for you.

 

Hearsay and rumour are not accepted in court, nor should they be on here.

 

Johnson has not had a fair crack yet and I am certainly prepared to let Corney give him the rest of the season. In general he has been good for the club. If he has come into management with, say, a theoretical 50 point business plan it would prudent for him to assume not all 50 points will be a success. That is for him to deal with or someone else will.

 

I don't know, I think I could do a better job than LDJhechat:censored:.

[LaticsChris]

I'm not convinced by LJ at all, and it appears that when you don't follow the flock of sheep on here, you get pillored. See Chaddy End Regular on the JCH thread and now Postman Matt.

 

Johnson is nothing more than a salesman, and all this talk of us playing sexy football, and the best football we've ever seen, I think you've been blinkered by Penny and Dickov.

 

We've won 2 games, that is appalling, and people keep commenting drivel such as "Yeah we lost again, but we're playing well"....unbelievable.

 

Looking back at the games I've seen, and i've seen 7 out of 11 live and PNE on tv, we haven't been great at all.

 

Stevenage, we looked good going forward, but was shocking at the back, two penalties saved us, and a certain Mr Baxter who we are missing greatly.

Derby, started ok, faded badly, but acceptable against a higher opposition team.

Walsall - Appalling, it was just like last season that game.

Port Vale - Highly entertaining in the end, but result would have been much different had Hughes bagged the pen. Overran in first half.

Tranmere - Didn't have a shot on target, highly frustrating afternoon.

PNE (On TV) - The only game I can say we were brilliant, and somewhere near as good as the fans are making out.

Rotherham - Average, another where we were overran, only came into it when the siege mentality kicked in and then conceeded in injury time die to the keeper knocking it back out into the middle.

Crewe - Absolutely abysmal. Against a team that hasn't even SCORED away from home, never mind won, and who had suffered two 3-0 losses on the bounce, and people claim it was a good draw.

 

We've conceeded 5 penalties, we have conceeded first in every league game bar Port Vale, we have a left back at centre half, we change the CM pairing every game, we change the wingers every game, we change the forwards every game, we then put a forward on the left wing, we've got a limp wristed rash goalkeeper that has given away two penalties (who's not even our own player.... DROP HIM) we've got a striker who hit the post v crewe when it was harder to miss, who then goes and hits the bar from point blank, the post and straight at the keeper the next game....need I go on??

 

You won't get pilloried if, as you have done, you put forward a reasoned argument that doesn't involve making silly assumptions. I can see some of the points you're making there but I don't agree with a number of them. But hey, that's football. I suppose the difference is in each of our personal preferences to, having weighed up the facts and analysed the performances, put either a positive or negative spin on the situation.

Be careful Alex you will be cast aside like me.

 

That is quite possibly the best post i have ever read fully backs up part of what i am trying to get through, but its ok because we are winning the passing game percentages.

 

Comparing us with Liverpool is laughable and delusional yes they started last season playing nice football but FFS they had John-Jo Shelvey in centre midfielder, what did they do they spent big and massively improved there squad with players like Sturridge, Coutinho, Toure etc etc

 

But its ok in 12 months time we might beat Man Utd, some people need to get real, LJ messed up in 1 area big time and thats not off loading James Weslowski because for me it typifies everything thats been wrong with us for the past 2 seasons and whilst he remains at the club the attitude and overall dynamic of the club won't change.

 

I'll explain the Liverpool comparison in more understandable terms, as whilst I'm not suggesting this will happen I do believe it is a good example to look at and see the virtue of patience in our situation.

 

Last season a team had a new young manager, who replaced a manager who having initially been well-liked soon demonstrated that he wasn't up to the job. The new manager came in and began to change the style of football. He also began to do things a little differently off the field, using a few business-speak catchphrases here and there as well as attempting a few modern man-management tricks along the way. Initially this didn't reap obvious rewards, even though his team appeared to be following his orders and playing reasonably well. Often they would have the majority of the ball and a number of spurned goalscoring chances in their league matches, which would end in draws and defeats. After nine matches they had just ten points and a number of supporters were becoming restless.

 

This all seems a little familiar does it not?

 

Anyway this team continued in an uncertain fashion, managing just their fourth win of the season on December 1st. At this point the team, having become more accustomed to the new manager's methods - and the manager having settled into his new role - picked up noticeably winning three games in that month and then (admittedly with the help of a couple of signings, though undoubtedly a hell of a lot of work on the training pitch as well) continued this new trend, making them one of the form teams of the second half of the season.

 

I realise I'm going on and quite likely flogging a dead horse here, but this is an example of a team that just needed a little patience and the following season are now handily placed second in their league. Call me a Pollyanna but I'm looking at this example until I see otherwise.