The EU referendum - 23rd June

[Up2NoGooD]

 

 

Didn't I tell you to put those 'Brexit' specs away?

 

Forgive me if I do you an injustice, but you may not be of an age whereby you fully understand the meaning of statesmanship.

Britain has contributed many fine things in the course of the advancement of humanity, and still does. Unfortunately, Boris Johnson (and I know he's awfully clever) does not fall into this category;

 

Furthermore, seeing British journalism on our news stands is an habitual and everyday occurrence. However, seeing the front page of the Sun ("Queen votes out") reproduced on the front page of (for example) 'Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung' or 'le Monde' rams home just how far the Anglo-Saxon media empires have succeeded in debasing all walks of life to game-show level. Since most other Eu countries still have an objective press, this does come as a shock.

 

As an (albeit facile) metaphor, Britain is like Oldham Athletic - badly run, slightly tin-pot but with some history and at best mediocre 'on the pitch'. However, when we play our neighbours we turn up, all Billy big-balls, upsetting the locals - and the Regal Moon inevitably ends up getting wrecked.

 

Dear oh dear.

[opinions4u]

 

 

Didn't I tell you to put those 'Brexit' specs away?

 

Forgive me if I do you an injustice, but you may not be of an age whereby you fully understand the meaning of statesmanship.

Britain has contributed many fine things in the course of the advancement of humanity, and still does. Unfortunately, Boris Johnson (and I know he's awfully clever) does not fall into this category;

 

Furthermore, seeing British journalism on our news stands is an habitual and everyday occurrence. However, seeing the front page of the Sun ("Queen votes out") reproduced on the front page of (for example) 'Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung' or 'le Monde' rams home just how far the Anglo-Saxon media empires have succeeded in debasing all walks of life to game-show level. Since most other Eu countries still have an objective press, this does come as a shock.

 

As an (albeit facile) metaphor, Britain is like Oldham Athletic - badly run, slightly tin-pot but with some history and at best mediocre 'on the pitch'. However, when we play our neighbours we turn up, all Billy big-balls, upsetting the locals - and the Regal Moon inevitably ends up getting wrecked.

Wtf?

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I agree about the tinpot embarrassingmess of being British. Even the Irish and the Italians are laughing at us.

 

David Davis on the telly with not one single clue about how to leave. He reckons Brazil, Russia, India and China will make trade deals with us "the moment we leave". Can't see either thing happening - the deals or the leaving.

[jimsleftfoot]

Merkel absolutely did plan to bring them in quickly. It was part of the migrant-stopping deal, which gave Turkey a rather large negotiating option in that they could stop it at any time and let millions through. Personally I was in favour of Turkey joining some years ago but the recent trend there isn't positive

Merkel wanting them in and them getting in are two different things entirely.

[jimsleftfoot]

 

Talking about lies, WW3 still not happened.interest rates have stayed the same and no emergency budget.

And article 50 hasn't been invoked either!!

[Up2NoGooD]

And article 50 hasn't been invoked either!!

 

Who'd have thought it? politicians lying.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Might set up one of those Tweet bots: Has article 50 been invoked yet?

 

Still no. Some time in the new year, meaning December 2017? How much slippage can the LEAVE neanderthals take before they begin to question whether the referendum even happened?

[Up2NoGooD]

Might set up one of those Tweet bots: Has article 50 been invoked yet?

 

Still no. Some time in the new year, meaning December 2017? How much slippage can the LEAVE neanderthals take before they begin to question whether the referendum even happened?

 

Some of the neanderthals have been :censored: on long enough, a couple of years is :censored: all to them, as for the REMAINIACS, You lot still crying ?, dear oh dear. there there now.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

 

Some of the neanderthals have been :censored: on long enough, a couple of years is :censored: all to them, as for the REMAINIACS, You lot still crying ?, dear oh dear. there there now.

 

I can't tell you enough how not bothered I am. I'm just interested in where the fervour goes when that small percentage of the population who can't chew and walk at the same time realise they've been diddled.

[Up2NoGooD]

 

I can't tell you enough how not bothered I am. I'm just interested in where the fervour goes when that small percentage of the population who can't chew and walk at the same time realise they've been diddled.

 

Probably move into your old haunt in Islington.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

 

Probably move into your old haunt in Islington.

 

Never lived in Islington. Shoreditch (Tower Hamlets), Tulse Hill (Lambeth), Dalston (Hackney) and Nunhead (Southwark). Your provincial out voters just can't survive in those places.

[Up2NoGooD]

 

Never lived in Islington. Shoreditch (Tower Hamlets), Tulse Hill (Lambeth), Dalston (Hackney) and Nunhead (Southwark). Your provincial out voters just can't survive in those places.

 

Oh right, my apologies i thought i read somewhere you moved out from there. Those narrow minded folk probably wouldn't choose to live there, that's true. You seem to have been around a bit?

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

 

Oh right, my apologies i thought i read somewhere you moved out from there. Those narrow minded folk probably wouldn't choose to live there, that's true. You seem to have been around a bit?

 

I like to keep one foot north of the river and one foot south. I was thinking about asking out voters how they feel when I go down to the Den on 6 August...but it's difficult to tell from appearances how people voted isn't it?

[Up2NoGooD]

 

I like to keep one foot north of the river and one foot south. I was thinking about asking out voters how they feel when I go down to the Den on 6 August...but it's difficult to tell from appearances how people voted isn't it?

 

If you're thinking of asking, who i think you are, i wouldn't be so bold

Unless of course you look like one of them.

[China]

This is an excellent piece which sums up the mess quite well.

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/07/14/everything-you-need-to-know-about-theresa-may-s-brexit

[piglinbland]

Quite scary really. The geo-political landscape ten years from now could be unrecognisable.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Quite scary really. The geo-political landscape ten years from now could be unrecognisable.

It'll be perfectly recognisable. We'll be a big nation on the edge of Europe threatening to leave if we don't get what we want. Plus ça change, plus ça meme chose.

 

Edit: I notice 9.72% of people in this poll are still undecided, a mere month after polling day. They're probably the only right ones.

Edited July 22, 2016 by 24hoursfromtulsehill

[leeslover]

It'll be perfectly recognisable. We'll be a big nation on the edge of Europe threatening to leave if we don't get what we want. Plus ça change, plus ça meme chose.

 

Edit: I notice 9.72% of people in this poll are still undecided, a mere month after polling day. They're probably the only right ones.

To look at it another way, do you think the French et al want the situation you describe?

[piglinbland]

It'll be perfectly recognisable. We'll be a big nation on the edge of Europe threatening to leave if we don't get what we want. Plus ça change, plus ça meme chose.

 

Edit: I notice 9.72% of people in this poll are still undecided, a mere month after polling day. They're probably the only right ones.

 

I'll wait for the second tour of the French presidential elections on May 7th before judging that. As it stands, Brexit and Daech play into the hands of the extreme right. Tipping point?

[mikeroyboy]

A few questions for those left sucking lemons.

 

(1) What does the Anglo-Saxon media have to gain from Brexit?

 

(2) How is our little Island (5th largest economy in the world) being badly run?

 

(3) Where would you see our economy being if we were well run?

 

(4) Why is unemployment so high in the Eurozone?

 

(5) What has the ‘objective, European press’ had to say about democracy within the European Parliament and unemployment in the Euro-zone?

 

(6) Do you think a European Parliament catering for 24 languages is sustainable?

 

(7) Do you think it is sustainable for 24 Eurozone countries consisting of wildly differing cultures, economies and infrastructure to be tied to one interest rate?

 

(8) Would you agree, in the great scheme of things it is sometimes necessary to take a pill in an attempt to regain democratic rights, many of which we invented?

 

(9) What is actually improving over the last 8yrs in the EU?

 

Brexit may well cause some unpleasant turbulence for us all. But so may a continuing economic slowdown in China, further unrest in the Middle East, further problems in Greece and Italy within the banking systems, stagnation or worse in European Unemployment figures, Especially in Greece and Spain with 24% and 20% respectively, and not to mention EU governance failing to acknowledge democracy.

 

Over the next 5yrs some or all of these may come to pass, plus any number of other events that effect economies and markets but the lemon suckers will undoubtedly blame Brexit. This, while not having the faintest idea of where we would have been by remaining.

 

We are a productive, inventive, imaginative, multiracial, hardworking and generally trustworthy little Island in the North Atlantic. We are definitely not going to bring the World or ourselves to its knees.

 

What sensible reason could any country or body put forward to make trade agreements with the UK punitive?

 

I’m not aware of a groundswell of the 17 million + Brexiteers clambering for a rerun via Twitter or Facebook. Nor, I suspect, would there have been had they lost.

 

Time to talk us up not down, we are after all a very resolute nation.

 

We are still in Europe. We will still defend Europe. We are still in NATO.

[piglinbland]

A few questions for those left sucking lemons.

 

(1) What does the Anglo-Saxon media have to gain from Brexit?

 

Quite a lot actually. They're mainly representative of the establishment and it's in their interests to have a tame public to exploit and spread the WASP message to.

 

(2) How is our little Island (5th largest economy in the world) being badly run?

 

It wasn't, up until now. 5th largest economy is, by the way, misleading in that endows us with superpower status. Remove The City and all the tertiary work and the picture is very different.

 

(3) Where would you see our economy being if we were well run?

 

Better than it is now?

 

(4) Why is unemployment so high in the Eurozone?

 

World recession, EU member states far too numerous, piss-poor governments within the EU and a piss-poor EU.

 

(5) What has the ‘objective, European press’ had to say about democracy within the European Parliament and unemployment in the Euro-zone?

 

Extremely critical. By the way, most of the European press is objective - it's called journalism.

 

(6) Do you think a European Parliament catering for 24 languages is sustainable?

 

Most certainly.

 

(7) Do you think it is sustainable for 24 Eurozone countries consisting of wildly differing cultures, economies and infrastructure to be tied to one interest rate?

 

Yes, but with the reservation that the Euro-zone has expanded far too quickly.

 

(8) Would you agree, in the great scheme of things it is sometimes necessary to take a pill in an attempt to regain democratic rights, many of which we invented?

 

Sometimes. However, now is the wrong time.

 

(9) What is actually improving over the last 8yrs in the EU?

 

Many things, such as cultural exchange, scientific collaboration, medical research, security data and a host of other things whereby pooled resources bring harmony. If the economic slowdown has affected the EU, then it's fair to say it's affected most of the rest of the planet too.

 

Brexit may well cause some unpleasant turbulence for us all. But so may a continuing economic slowdown in China, further unrest in the Middle East, further problems in Greece and Italy within the banking systems, stagnation or worse in European Unemployment figures, Especially in Greece and Spain with 24% and 20% respectively, and not to mention EU governance failing to acknowledge democracy. -

 

Brexit wasn't even supposed to happen. Now that it has, are you trying to bestow the quality of foresight on it's "founding fathers"?

 

Over the next 5yrs some or all of these may come to pass, plus any number of other events that effect economies and markets but the lemon suckers will undoubtedly blame Brexit. This, while not having the faintest idea of where we would have been by remaining.

 

Remaining, we would have remained roughly the same. 5th global economic power! That's good, isn't it? Why change it?

 

I'm not a lemon sucker because I sorely hope Britain comes out of this intact. But I'll certainly be blaming Brexit when it's justified to do so. And will do so when the smarmy politicians herald a small step forward whist conveniently erasing the six backwards steps from the collective memory stick.

 

We are a productive, inventive, imaginative, multiracial, hardworking and generally trustworthy little Island in the North Atlantic. We are definitely not going to bring the World or ourselves to its knees.

 

But we may just have been the catalyst that sparked a much greater disorder.

 

What sensible reason could any country or body put forward to make trade agreements with the UK punitive?

 

Self interest?

 

I’m not aware of a groundswell of the 17 million + Brexiteers clambering for a rerun via Twitter or Facebook. Nor, I suspect, would there have been had they lost.

 

Agree - it's done, albeit crazily. Time to get on with it.

 

Time to talk us up not down, we are after all a very resolute nation.

 

Of course we are. But I'll "talk us down" all I want because it's my right to do so. We are a democracy, after all?

 

We are still in Europe. We will still defend Europe. We are still in NATO.

 

But we just made it all a bit harder.

Edited July 22, 2016 by piglinbland

[jimsleftfoot]

1) Brexit caused a lot of news to happen. If you're in the news game, that tends to not be a bad thing.

 

2) Why is it that the UK cannot be competitive in the manufacturing sector but Germany can be? Too London and financial services centric, massive North/South divide.

 

3) Bigger manufacturing base, better public transport outside of London, at least one other City to rival London, better handle on Fuel & Power production.

 

4) Financial crisis, Eurozone countries not being a good investment.

 

5) Depends on viewpoint of said media.

 

6) English is the first language of the EU so it's not that they all speak different languages all the time. I don't think it makes things easy particularly when dealing with technical issues, but that's life, people deal with such.

 

7) No, I think that is problematic.

 

8) Are you asking a broad question or is this with specific reference to Brexit? If Brexit, I don't believe the argument that the EU was undemocratic. I do believe that democracy is a two way process requiring the public to be engaged with it. The public aren't engaged and perhaps that was the EU's biggest failure.

 

9) Surely a better question would be too ask would have life been better outside of the EU over the last 8 years? Arguably we've done well as a place that sat within the EU but not within the Euro zone for investment purposes.

 

Punitive trade agreements

 

- EU: Because they don't want the EU to fall apart and people often make emotional rather than rational decisions.

-ROW: We used to be that big Empire which wasn't always quite fair in its approach to trade.

 

Your point about remainers not knowing whether things would have been any different if we had remained - straight back at you, the same applies for Brexiters. I'm sure it will be a case of not listening to experts who talk the country down.

 

If the govt want to talk the country up, then let's make it a bit better outside of London.

Edited July 23, 2016 by jimsleftfoot

[mikeroyboy]

jimsleftfoot, piglinbland:

 

I respect the time you took to answer the questions and regret my use of the phrase ‘lemon suckers’. Please accept my one post response.

 

(1) David Cameron promised then called the Referendum to give the Tories a perceived better chance of winning an overall majority. It paid off. The very wide spectrum of media, IMO, created pretty decent coverage of the campaign, as they do with any major world event. They mainly represent the reader – how else could it work?

 

(2) Why aren’t Germany as dominant in Technology and Financial Services as the UK? It is just how things have evolved. The City is held in very high esteem throughout the world for very good reasons including historical expertise, historical safety, historical stability and forward thinking governance. Is shunting over to the Eurozone likely to be an easily taken option to World Governments and Commerce? Like our Universities we are respected World Wide for deliverability, integrity and expertise.

 

 

(3) A bit of a dopey question on my part, the answer of course, involves guesswork. 5th is however very satisfactory for our little neck of the woods and I don’t expect us to slip down due to Brexit.

 

(4) We seem to be in some form of agreement on the construction of the EU. We have spent over a thousand years getting to what is still a stable, a globally well respected democracy. The EU is not bringing together the ‘best’ of Europe, it is bringing ‘down’ the best of Europe. The European Commissions and Judiciaries are running out of control and unelected.

 

 

(5) Call our press and the European press what you like but it is their local readership that they are selling to. Suggesting pulling out of the EU to their readers, as a way forward, would be a lie, in most cases.

 

(6) There is no first language in the EU, just 24 different ones. Over 1500 linguists + 600 or so support staff attempt to make (Common Market) policy work. Is there a successful working model of this somewhere? Has Mr, Airforce One, “you’ll be back of the queue” Barack Obama contemplated the EU system with anyone. The South Americans, for example?

 

 

(7) A simple difference of opinions but agreeing there are problems.

 

(8) I consider us lucky to have had the chance, there would never have been a good time. But it would have become harder to bring it to pass. I signed up for a Common Market Policy in 1974. Where the EU is now, without any further public consultation is a travesty common law and justice.

 

(9) Would we have done better outside the EU over the last 8yrs is a rhetorical question. We can only compare how we have reacted to a world recession outside the Eurozone. The answer to that is, quicker and more efficiently. The EU were behind us for about four years on interest rate cuts and use of quantitative easing plus other austerity measures. We did a U-turn in a mini not a multi carriage train. The EU is still struggling because of its own complexity.

 

The real drivers of world finances are multinational companies, market makers and pension funds to name three. They don’t do emotion or irrational. They do profit. IMHO it is beyond comprehension that they will be throwing themselves out of bed with the tried and trusted UK at the drop of a hat for a still struggling and in its infancy Eurozone. Angela Merkel will soon be smartened up by the German car industry if she thinks petulance and shooting herself in the foot is the way forward. Not that I think for one moment she will.

 

I take the point about Remainer’s J, and it’s clear Brexiteers haven’t been listening to 'experts'. Where have these ‘experts’ gained their knowledge of a Brexit? Many of them are being proved wrong short term and most seemed to have had ‘political elite preservation’ stamped on their forehead. Some of them even appeared ridiculous, including the soon departing most powerful politician in the world and our jettisoned Chancellor.

 

I wouldn’t be so bold as to surmise how it’s all going to go but I have little doubt that we are well able to engineer an exit from the EU while increasing our efficiency, dependability and expertise on a wider world stage.

 

There are many reasons why world or our economies could nosedive over the next five years but I don’t expect Brexit to be one of them.

 

I could write a book but I will leave you with two quotes attributed to the renowned economist John Maynard Keynes:

 

“The engine that drives enterprise is not thrift but profit.”

 

“When the facts change, I will change my mind. What do you do Sir?”

[Hands on]

Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary will prove a masterstroke by the amazing PM May. He is a a representation of Brexit. Scoffed at and insulted but after a week already gaining a reputation both with his staff, who feared the end of days, and with politicians world wide.

 

Remainers both here and throughout the world have got to get over it and accept that the UK, that includes Scotland, is leaving the EU. Once they all get used to the idea, Merkel has but Hollande just can't contemplate it because of the pressure in France for the same thing FREXIT, and realise where their interests lie all will be well despite the ongoing public image of difficulties portrayed to stop others following our lead.

 

Why people go on about access to the single market as the be all and end all of economic life I do not know. In fact the be all and end all of EU economic life is access by the EU to the UK market. Just watch their stock markets plunge if tariff free trade is not allowed. Negotiating a free trade agreement for the EU is so complicated and long winded because of the single market - the market that is protectionist.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Hands on

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

To look at it another way, do you think the French et al want the situation you describe?

 

I don't know. Nobody wants situations in that way. The situation is what it is, whether or not anyone wants it.

 

Not all Brexit voters were knuckle-dragging, dribbling, club-wielding homo erectus types, but all knuckle-dragging, dribbling, club-wielding homo erectus types voted Brexit.

 

I hear we've opened negotiations with China. Solid start. But have we invoked article 50 yet, because that's what I'd want to know if I was China. I bet the Foreign Secretary's opening gambit was something like: I'm not really expecting this to happen, so can we just pretend we're having the meeting?