Reply from Larkin

[oafc0000]

Good evening ladies and gentlemen,

 

 

 

I am responding to all of you at the same time to ensure consistency of my reply as all of your e-mails make the same points and raise the same concerns. I hope that you find this acceptable.

 

 

 

I fully understand the depth of feeling with regard to this matter and sympathise with all of your views and in many ways feel the same but maybe for different reasons. Decisions made at planning are made on an item by item basis and are done freely and not under the party whip. For those who may not know the party whip is when a collective decision is made and you all stand by it, planning is determined individually.

 

 

 

Decisions are made on the evidence given in the report, evidence given on the night, subjective and objective argument and knowledge of the issue in hand, the effect on the town and your area. That is why it was a difficult decision to come too to vote against the second and more controversial application.

 

 

 

The first application was fairly straight forward, new stand, banqueting facilities and so on, a much needed development for the future survival of the club. There would be a slight impact on traffic but that would mainly be on match days, some increase in other use outside match days that’s understandable but something I felt I could support and did so.

 

 

 

The second application for the residential side was something entirely different in my opinion when looking at the full application. I rejected it for two reasons;

 

 

 

I was not convinced with the traffic survey that told me that 693 apartments would only generate 1 extra vehicle per traffic queue and make little difference to the traffic situation around the development and further a field. You only have to look at Broadway now at most times of the day but peak times especially to see that once the whole of the development was completed it would result in grid lock. Indeed there are times now when it is almost impossible to travel along Broadway. Around the Elk Mill roundabout, Featherstall Rd and Oldham Rd. Officer advice was to support the Elk Mill development as it would not cause any noticeable increase in traffic that the system could not support! Look at this site now grid locked at peak times. The traffic survey was also supplied by the applicant as is required.

 

 

If you look at it another way, in those apartments there could be in excess of 1000 adults, most families especially young professionals have two cars that could result in 2000 cars being on this site for residents alone. Now I know this is the worst case scenario but I believe we should look at worst case to enable us to plan properly. If we say that there would be 750 adults and two thirds have vehicles, which leaves us with 500 extra cars on the site for residents only, not to mention the hotel, fitness club and retail units!

 

 

 

500 cars at the peak time of 2 hours in the morning and again at night. There would be two exits, one at Sheepfoot Lane/Oldham Rd and Furtherwood Rd/Chadderton Way, that’s 250 going one way and 250 going the other or even worse many more going in one or other way. 250 cars equals 125 per hour at peak times or just over 2 cars per minute at either of those junctions and that’s if they leave at one minute intervals which I don’t believe they would.

 

 

 

I know this may seem unreal but I believe it to be a distinct possibility and would cause absolute chaos on the surrounding highway network. I also think that this is an underestimation as we all know that we are a car owning economy.

 

 

 

The second and just as important reason for my decision was the sheer scale of the residential dwelling themselves. To build blocks of flats eight stories high on a site like that is in my opinion ridiculous, they are more in keeping with waterside development such as Salford Quays or central Manchester where urban regeneration is required. I know there was no detailed plan of what they would look like but it would be very hard to make any eight story blocks look good.

 

 

An acceptable type of scheme to me would be one such as Baldwins Gate on Broadway Royton where the height is four stories and comes with a mix of apartments and family housing. I know people will say that they would be no higher than the Royal Oldham Hospital but that’s a hospital and these are residential and we should learn the lessons of the 60s when large blocks were all the rage, they are now nearly all demolished and yes I realise that they are council built but a large block is a large block no matter who owns it. I feel it is just totally out of keeping with the other residential facilities in the area.

 

 

 

I suppose I could go on all night about this subject and would still not convince you of my thoughts on why I voted to refuse the second application. This is the first time that I have been involved with a planning application for OAFC but I certainly hope it will not be the last. I hope the owners do as they said last night and stay the course and bring a revised acceptable plan to the earliest committee and make it one that we can all support. I for one want Latics to succeed and a fitting development to go on the site but it has to be one that fits the aspirations of all the people affected.

 

 

 

May I take this opportunity to thank you all for your e-mails, its shows the depth of feeling not only for the club but for the borough as a whole. May I wish you a Merry Christmas and I hope to see you all at the next planning committee when I hope a revised plan is submitted and look forward to supporting it if appropriate.

 

 

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

 

Tony Larkin

 

 

 

Cllr Tony Larkin CMIOSH

 

Royton North Ward

 

0161 678 9781

[jsslatic]

I was not convinced with the traffic survey that told me that 693 apartments would only generate 1 extra vehicle per traffic queue and make little difference to the traffic situation around the development and further a field.

 

What more could the traffic report say to persuade these idiots? It's so frustrating as they won't let it into their heads that the experts know what they're doing, and they themselves are wrong.

 

I can understand why it would be turned down if his paranoia was a realistic possibility, but he's been told by the experts (who do traffic assessments for a living and know what they're talking about) that his assumptions are wrong.

 

Sheer incompetence.

[Diego_Sideburns]

Cllr Larkin has missed the point of the planning application completely. It was only in OUTLINE - what he is asking for at the next meeting will be submitted in the future when a DETAILED application is considered.

 

In the meantime outline planning approval is required and the traffic survey results, carried out twice based on nationally approved criteria, must be accepted as the Committee was advised by its Officer.

 

Let's see what the outcome of tonight's deliberations at the Civic Centre brings before taking any further action regarding Cllr Larkin's views.

 

I'll draw his views to the attention of the Leader of the Council if it transpires that no action is to be taken to resolve this mess

Edited November 15, 2007 by Diego_Sideburns

[beag_teeets]

Plus his 125 cars an hour are not in context, an extra 125 cars to 10000 is a drop in the ocean. Does anyone know how many cars pass through those roads in the peak times?

[oafc0000]

my reply

 

Hi Mr Larkin

 

I must admit I am truly disgusted with your reasons for rejecting the application for development.

 

For you to reject the findings of very highly skilled and highly paid traffic experts is beyond belife! What qualifications do you have to put your opinion ahead of the opinions of these experts??? What is the point in paying for expensive surveys if you have no intention of taking them into account. It seems to me you would have only believed the traffic survey if it was in line with your "expert" view. I found your suggestion of gridlock is ridiculous and I expect you would reject any further attempt made by the club to gain approval for the project which included new homes. No matter how many experts tell you just how wrong you are.

 

As for your opinion in regards to the flats. I am gobsmacked you have compared them in any way to the old style flats which were put up in the 60's. Anyone who has visited the new style flats across the country, not just in city centres would realise the difference. I suggest you take the time to go visit them.

 

I still have not heard one valid reason for rejecting the proposals and I think yourself and a number of other councilors have acted in a most unprofessional way and I feel badly let down by my council. I think questions need to be asked to why the councils own experts have been ignored / distrusted when giving there expert opinions.

[Lags]

Further to the fact this is only OUTLINE APPROVAL, Corney stated clearly he would still work with the residents after a yes vote and would reduce the storeys in the blocks if that helped ease the residents minds. Surely this also would ease the traffic by the councillors own logic..... total fools who went into the chamber knowing their vote.

[laticsrblue]

Has this guy even looked at the plans.

 

THe only 8 story block is the one that partially overlooks the corner of the ground in between the Chaddy and the Broadway stands. It will not be seen from neither the houses on Furtherwood road nor the bungalows, in fact its height would be totally in keeping with that of the New Stands when viewed from the Broadway.

 

And why does everyone have to drive to work, are public transport and shanks's pony no longer an option in Oldham.

What about the reduced number of cars on the surrounding roads due to hospital staff living in the key worker housing!

Edited November 16, 2007 by laticsrblue

[Matt]

I know this may seem unreal but I believe it to be a distinct possibility and would cause absolute chaos on the surrounding highway network. I also think that this is an underestimation as we all know that we are a car owning economy

This should have consisted of mental processes of discernment, analysis and evaluation to include all possible processes - in order to form a solid judgment, reconciling evidence with common sense.

 

You cannot simply believe.

 

500 cars at the peak time of 2 hours in the morning and again at night. There would be two exits, one at Sheepfoot Lane/Oldham Rd and Furtherwood Rd/Chadderton Way, that’s 250 going one way and 250 going the other or even worse many more going in one or other way. 250 cars equals 125 per hour at peak times or just over 2 cars per minute at either of those junctions and that’s if they leave at one minute intervals which I don’t believe they would.

This part of his argument is not reinforced with evidence, it is just conjecture. An assumption. He's believing again too - it's not even reasonable belief.

 

...and we should learn the lessons of the 60s when large blocks were all the rage, they are now nearly all demolished and yes I realise that they are council built but a large block is a large block no matter who owns it. I feel it is just totally out of keeping with the other residential facilities in the area."

Mayfield Housing, Castleton, Rochdale. Go see, http://www.mayfieldcastleton.co.uk/apartments.aspx - there would/could have been a compramise here - as other people have said - to tweak the outline plan after a green light.

[help_shiny]

sodding Oldham council and sodding Oldham councillors - it has to be the worst run town/borough in the country.

I'm glad I dont live there anymore.

To those of you who do....kick these morons out of power. Vote them out. Hardly anyone bothers voting in local elections (20% maybe?) so if only a relative few of you got together you could hold real power.

Two options:

i)Get enough fans together to stand in every single ward in the borough and give them the fright of their lives. You dont need to win the seat, the idiots will just be scared of the votes you get being the difference between them winning and someone else knicking in.

ii) An easier and cheaper way but perhaps less hard hitting one would be to find out from those standing in each ward who is for and who is against redevelopment of BP. Vote for those who are for - regardless of party politics.

 

VOTE THESE MORONS OUT

[Alec1954]

This should have consisted of mental processes of discernment, analysis and evaluation to include all possible processes - in order to form a solid judgment, reconciling evidence with common sense.

 

You cannot simply believe.

This part of his argument is not reinforced with evidence, it is just conjecture. An assumption. He's believing again too - it's not even reasonable belief.

Mayfield Housing, Castleton, Rochdale. Go see, http://www.mayfieldcastleton.co.uk/apartments.aspx - there would/could have been a compramise here - as other people have said - to tweak the outline plan after a green light.

 

and at the meeting one of the Councillors described the flats as having a (can't remember the exact words) Eastern Block Stalinistic feel.... and what plans had he seen? I think that this comment alone tells us thet his mind had been made up long beofre the vote.

 

Good point elswhere is when talking about building out of context, that didn't stop the Civic Centre being built out of context with the rest of Oldham Town Centre did it??? one rule for one.......

[oafc0000]

Have you emailed this to him ? If not please do so!

[Inspiral_Carpet]

I've replied. I've also copied to all the people on the email trail - Councillors; MPs; fans; Alan Hardy; Simon Corney etc. I'd suggest we all do the same and just keep adding to it.

 

Fill their inboxes. Show we mean business

 

Keep up the pressure!!!!

I am simply staggered.

 

I must be incredibly naive however I thought that when the dust had settled on the matter and when you people had time to think and reflect, you would realise that you came to the wrong decision. It is clear from your points that you based your vote on hearsay; anecdotal opinion and rhetoric rather than the facts and evidence presented to yourselves. You have said as much below.

 

So you know better than the experts who compiled not one but two Traffic Reports. These were verified as accurate by The Highways Agency and the Council's very own Traffic Planner, Les Harrison. A man with 30 years subject matter expertise. Instead you prefer to make massive decisions based on gut-feel following comments like "it takes me 10 minutes to get out of B&Q Car Park" or "Broadway looks very busy when I'm driving to work".

 

Such utter arrogance!

 

It was very clear from the questions asked at the hearing that none of you had bothered to read the plethora of information provided to you. Additionally, you failed to realise despite being told in the meeting that the Club were already prepared to reduce the height of the build. Furthermore, ther were assurances that further negotiations would take place.

 

Instead, you went against the advice of professionals who recommended the Application for approval. You can tell me all you like about free votes and you will find out more about that when you stand for re-election. The simple fact is that a bunch of ill-prepared amateurs used their own subjective reasoning and motives to turn down a technically and professionally acceptable submission.

 

I'm not even going to broach the subject of the Chairman's activities on the night which broached many Council and Government Rules and which I believe will eventually lead to your downfall.

 

Finally, you point out that the Owners said on the night that they would resubmit their proposals. In a nutshell, this shows why we are in this situation. Simon Corney said exactly the opposite. He told you "this is the last time you will see me in Oldham".

 

Quite simply, you do not listen and just hear what you want.

 

Turn up at the Civic Centre (Rochdale Road) at 1pm tomorrow. You will see hundreds of people marching in a peaceful demonstration. To avoid any confusion, they are unhappy with this ludicrous and totally unjust decision. A decision based purely on subjectivity and apparently based solely on personal motivation.

 

And trust me. When you talk about depth of feeling, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[oafc0000]

I've replied. I've also copied to all the people on the email trail - Councillors; MPs; fans; Alan Hardy; Simon Corney etc. I'd suggest we all do the same and just keep adding to it.

 

Fill their inboxes. Show we mean business

 

Keep up the pressure!!!!

 

Great email!

[RoytonBlueLad]

Very well put Inspiral.

[The Chaplain]

I've replied. I've also copied to all the people on the email trail - Councillors; MPs; fans; Alan Hardy; Simon Corney etc. I'd suggest we all do the same and just keep adding to it.

 

Fill their inboxes. Show we mean business

 

Keep up the pressure!!!!

 

 

Is there an easy way of picking up all the relevant email addresses?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[singe]

This should have consisted of mental processes of discernment, analysis and evaluation to include all possible processes - in order to form a solid judgment, reconciling evidence with common sense.

 

You cannot simply believe.

This part of his argument is not reinforced with evidence, it is just conjecture. An assumption. He's believing again too - it's not even reasonable belief.

Mayfield Housing, Castleton, Rochdale. Go see, http://www.mayfieldcastleton.co.uk/apartments.aspx - there would/could have been a compramise here - as other people have said - to tweak the outline plan after a green light.

HS

Details you need, from several emails I am linking.

tinhk Bashford is the weak link. Questions of integrity, impropriety, and lack of trust and also weasel words about voting and ruling and influence on laymen members of the plannig committee.

 

In theory only 2 more voted needed to sway from 7-4 to 6-5.

 

Imagine 7 candidates that hapen to be the 7 who voted against the proposals.

 

It is interesting to see ho many votes it would take to WIN:

AVERAGE about 1200 in the 2007 election

Am I right in thinking it will be 2010 before any of these come up for election again? Hence the decision now is "safe"

 

Stephen Bashforth (Labour, Royton South)

Roger Hindle (Liberal, St James)

Javid Iqbal (Labour, Werneth)

Tony Larkin (Labour, Royton North)

Keith Pendlebury (Liberal, Hollinwood)

Christeen Wheeler (Liberal, Saddleworth South)

Philip Rogers (Tory, Chadderton North

 

Royton South

Sue Barratt (Liberal Democrat) 968

Steven Bashforth (Labour) 1079

Allan Robert Fish (Conservative) 598

Chris Shyne (UK Independence party) 265

 

(Turnout 36.8 per cent)

Elected: Steven Bashforth

 

St. James'

Adrian Clive Alexander (Labour) 636

Craig Lawton (British National Party) 371

James Arthur McArdle (Liberal Democrat) 1114

 

(Turnout 27.1 per cent)

Elected: James Arthur McArdle

 

Werneth

Khurshid Ahmed (Liberal Democrat) 1578

Javid Iqbal (Labour) 1895

Mohammed Shah Jahan (Conservative) 630

 

(Turnout 56.4 per cent)

Elected: Javid Iqbal

 

Royton North

Anita Corbett (British National Party) 486

Joseph Alexander Farquhar (Conservative) 905

Trevor Hilton (UK Independence Party) 126

Tony Larkin (Labour) 1207

Philip Norman Renold (Liberal Democrat) 268

 

(Turnout 37.4 per cent)

Elected: Tony Larkin

 

Hollinwood

David Karl McDonald (Conservative) 285

Keith Pendlebury (Liberal Democrat) 943

David Roney (Green) 94

Steve Williams (Labour) 905

 

(Turnout 30.9 per cent)

Elected: Keith Pendlebury

 

Saddleworth South

Brian Ames (Labour) 265

Christine Lilian Beaumont-Rydings (Independent) 220

John Hudson (Conservative) 1211

Christine Wheeler (Liberal Democrat) 2079

 

(Turnout 50.2 per cent)

Elected: Christine Wheeler

 

Chadderton North

Susan Ann Dean (Labour) 983

Len Quinn (Conservative) 1266

Nazia Sultana Raja (Liberal Democrat) 317

David Andrew Short (UK Independence Party) 150

Eric Trigg (Independent) 160

 

(Turnout 36.1 per cent)

Elected: Len Quinn

 

Must have been a by election

[Diego_Sideburns]

Royton South

Sue Barratt (Liberal Democrat) 968

Steven Bashforth (Labour) 1079

Allan Robert Fish (Conservative) 598

Chris Shyne (UK Independence party) 265

So Bashford actually got 1079 votes out of 2910 votes = to 37% of a turn out of 36.8% = to 13.6% of the people in his ward. What a mandate he has.

 

That's what democracy is all about when people can't be arsed to vote. If you don't vote you can't complain, just like if you don't go to BP, why ask about the attendance and moan about the team!

 

Sorry about that little outburst, but I feel better now!!

 

Back to campaigning again now.

[Diego_Sideburns]

I've replied. I've also copied to all the people on the email trail - Councillors; MPs; fans; Alan Hardy; Simon Corney etc. I'd suggest we all do the same and just keep adding to it.

 

Fill their inboxes. Show we mean business

 

Keep up the pressure!!!!

 

That's brilliant!