Can we use the past the inform the future....?

[lookersstandandy]

So, Joe Royle took over as a rookie manager in the summer of 1982. He was 32.

 

His first full season [82/83] was a success in that we finished an impressive 7th in the 2nd tier, our highest position since we returned there in 1974. However, it has to be said, he did this largely with Jimmy Frizzell's team.

 

His second full season [83/84] was much less impressive.... we finished one above relegation. Mitigating circumstances [injuries, players being sold] apart, one could say as a young manager he was learning his trade.

 

His third season [84/85] saw a midtable finish [14th] with some real beatings thrown in for good measure. We lost 6-0 away to Leeds in Sept, 4-1 at Grimsby in Oct, 5-1 at Portsmouth in Feb and 5-2 at Oxford in Apr.

 

There was a bit of antagonism in his early days about an approach he was employing called 'condensing the field', for which [this period precedes my attending] I read, making it difficult for the opposition via less than attractive football. It largely failed, as some of the scores above will testify.

 

85/86 started off pretty well and we were challenging in the higher echelons until we hit a bump in November going 1 win, 2 draws and 10 losses [including a 1-5 reverse to Sheff United at home] up until Feb. We were now near the bottom in 18th. We then managed to recover in March and ended up 8th come the end of the season.

 

86/87 [my first season watching Latics] should need less of an introduction as it was the inaugural year of the play-offs, where we picked up the unenviable record of being the first team to finish 3rd in the 2nd tier and not get promoted to the top flight.

 

87/88 [10th] and 88/89 [16th], where the latter included 15 games without a win between Nov and Feb seeing us sit in 21st at one point, almost blend into one. As a season ticket holder during these days I can testify to them both being littered with highs and lows. We put 5 past Sheff United and Stoke, however leaked 4 at Leicester and 5 at Bradford in 87/88. We beat City 4-1 at Maine Road but lost 3-0 at Plymouth in 88/89.

 

From 1989/90 until 1993/94, the world became an infinitely brighter place and will forever be cherished in my heart.

 

Now, I can hear those of you reading this saying, yes yes, so what's your point? My answer is thus;

 

1. It took Joe Royle [our greatest ever manager] 5 full seasons before we began to really achieve. Think about that. Half a decade.

 

2. It took him 9, nearly a whole a decade to get us promoted. For those of you wanting to retort with, that was in the 2nd tier we're now in the 3rd.... you can't blame Lee Johnson for that.

 

3. Royle clearly made tactical mistakes in his early seasons. He was naïve in his team set up and that left us exposed to a beating here and there.

 

4. Some of those defeats were severe. The only 7 was the 7-2 in the ZDS cup at Bramall Lane, however we had 6 put past us once and a gluttony of 5's.

 

5. Royle took time to work out the type of player that suited us. Some people may wish to correct me, however Martin Buchan, Joe McBride, Brendan O'Callaghan, Gordon Smith, David Fairclough [many whom were past their best] were players he signed in his early seasons who had at best mediocre success, whom didn't always turn up and have the appropriate attitude to playing for Latics.

 

6. It took him a while to begin to identify the likes of Andy Linighan, Denis Irwin, Tommy Wright, Andy Ritchie, Ian Marshall, Neil Adams, Rick Holden et al. I once heard Joe say that he learned that players with something to prove, who were feisty in character, were the type of player he looked for.

 

In summary therefore - and I'd like to point out I was at MK on Saturday - I think Lee Johnson has worked marvels this season so far, however in so many comparable instances with Joe Royle and his teams as outlined above, the boy needs time and him and his team our complete unwavering support.

 

Some of the players who turned out on Saturday haven't got the heart - even if they have the technique - and I believe Lee will identify and ship them out come the end of the season and replace them with better. He's learning about Human Resource. He'll also begin to make less tactical mistakes and tinker with greater success. He's one of the more qualified managers we've had , however no matter what he's learned in the class room, he'll learn more on the job.

 

Enjoy your Christmas dinner's everyone and see you at SD.comP on Boxing day. OneTeamOneDream.

[Oh Heck C-Beck]

I just don't think people are patient enough to give managers that amount of time these days. As someone who is fed up with switching managers all the time I think (while we don't have a huge budget) we should stick with managers unless a change is needed to stay up. Of course if we suddenly had a lot of cash this might change as you could probably tempt someone of a higher calibre.

 

I guess the other problem these days that managers face is that at our level you have to bring in a new team every year because teams don't like being stung with long contracts, unless there is a lot of money, players tend to come in for 2 seasons max. It's hard to build a good side in this manner as you always end up replacing the best players rather than adding to them.

[BP1960]

Joe had a knack of signing players reserve team players on the cheap, such as Earl Barrett and Paul Warhurst, those two players could easily have been picked up by another club and fortunes might not have been the same, some you win a some you lose.

Personally, I feel there's too much reliance on loan players these days, it's a bit like the NHS over relying on agency staff.

[Monty Burns]

SD.comP

What a way to ruin a thoughtful, positive, well constructed post.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Monty Burns

[tringerlatic42]

Well made points Andy and I agree patience is needed and it is good that quite a few seem to realise this and hopefully Lee will have learned the hard way a few lessons from the past 2 weeks.

 

I recall well some of those long drought periods that you mention in the history especially that 85/86 period

 

 

[lookersstandandy]

Monty, grow up. Whether you like it or not, it's what it's called.

[alangroves]

Good post - enjoyed reading it - and certainly brought some memories back. Very difficult to compare because, in football terms, we are talking about 2 completely different eras. In my opinion, Latics will never experience the Joe Royle 'pinch me' days ever again. It was a complete one off - at his best he was a genius, being able to pick up the likes of Earl Barrett for buttons, develop him into a full England International and sell him for £1.7M - simply incredible. Many players became household names and are legends in our history - Paul Warhurst, Ian Marshall, Andy Ritchie, Denis Irwin, Ricky Holden etc etc.

 

Your point about giving managers time is very valid and, personally, I like LJ - though he has much to learn. Joe Royle had an illustrious career as a player and could, therefore, attract players simply via his charisma and pedigree. His contacts in the game were also phenomenal.

 

We are at a pivotal point in our history. We simply have to get out of this division because we are in danger of stagnating in it forever if we don't.

 

My fear is that the town will never truly get behind its team again (as it did in Joe's era) and that, ultimately, will be our undoing. LJ is an intelligent and genuine fella - stick with him - and here's hoping.

[Monty Burns]

Monty, grow up. Whether you like it or not, it's what it's called.

Jokin mate, calm down and change your username ha

[opinions4u]

There are also similarities with Dickov out there too.

 

The reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

[Scapegoat]

There are also similarities with Dickov out there too.

 

And arguably Sheridan. I would have personally kept both managers in post when they decided to leave.

 

I am generally of the opinion expressed in this thread that young untested managers should be given more time and stay in post for a good number of full seasons (minimum 3) unless we look like getting relegated. With older more experienced managers (Penny, Moore et al) I have less patience with, in that they should not need the time to learn the basics of motivation / man management etc. But even still I would give a decent time period as long as the style of football is worth watching.

 

 

Good OP. Brings back memories. With regards to Royle, I know that we say in the modern game managers don't get the time (Muzza a case in point), but I think even by the standards back in the day Frizzel and Royle stood out from the crowd. Didn't we have 2 managers over a 25 year period? Extraordinary.

[rammylatic]

Great opening post - agree with the sentiment regarding LJ. He needs time and the two game massacre shouldn't take away from our decent start to the season. Current player desire has to be questioned after Sat though, the application shown against Crewe on Boxing Day will demonstrate whether the players care one jot.

 

Hope we go out on the front foot and not let two heavy defeats spoil our mindset. This is what happened in Dickov's tenure. If the feel good factor that was pervading the club is lost after these two last results that would be an undoubted shame - Friday is a bigger game than we could ever imagine in my view.

[Lukers1]

Brendan O Callaghan suffered injuries.

[GFBunn]

Nice OP. I think the highlights of the Oxford game in 85 were on tv - was it John Aldridge that did the damage? Big Joe's condensing the field was a euphemism for a hit and miss offside trap

 

Joe was definitely a genius who found a way to work the system and we're all hoping LJ can do the same. But he'll find it way harder than Joe did I think. Being in the 3rd rather than the 2nd tier is the main disadvantage - that's 23 more teams with bigger budgets trying to poach our players (and manager). Plus a super-wealthy top division watching our youth teams and reserves who think nothing of taking a 6 figure punt on players who haven't even reached our first team. Keeping consistent performers at the club for longer than a season is virtually impossible - a Denis Irwin in our side would be gone after 25 games not 4 seasons.

 

The 2nd thing Joe had in his favour was the plastic pitch. I'm not saying it was the factor that got us promoted but it was an angle Joe worked brilliantly. I also think it helped to keep players at the club as Division One sides viewed our pitch with suspicion and could never really be sure how good our players were - half our games were played on plastic after all.

 

It's disappointing for us fans to be using words like 'heart' and 'desire' and as the OP said even Joe looked for players with something to prove. I guess it's just a fact that not all footballers are self motivated. When I look at the people around me at work it's about half and half - some want to go places, others couldn't give a toss Fwiw I do think this squad were behind the manager and LJ is smart enough to win them round. Maybe LJ and SC were a bit too public in their view that the squad needed strengthening, maybe it's something else that's upset the apple cart. If we give Lee the time to figure out the sensitive souls we have in the side I'm sure he'll be a success.

 

 

[Stagger Lee]

 

Now, I can hear those of you reading this saying, yes yes, so what's your point? My answer is thus;

 

1. It took Joe Royle [our greatest ever manager] 5 full seasons before we began to really achieve. Think about that. Half a decade.

 

 

 

What's my avatar then .... chopped liver? Outrageous claim ! Two promotions sunshine - and a (almost) European cup final (damn you Burnley!) you can stick your league cup finalists in the bin - if Rochdale and Tranmere can make that final then ppffffttt .......

 

 

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J/K - nice post and an upboat

[stargazer]

In the early days of Joe's era , I always felt we needed to score 3 to win .But I always felt the team gave their lot ,week in week out , failing only because of ability , not attitude ....frequently in the last 10 years I have thought the opposite.

 

The 3 months in 85/6 were we won no games and lost to division 4 Orient at home in the cup were desperate days .

Most clubs both then and certainly now would have sacked the manager , thankfully we did not .......the board at the time deserves enormous credit for this.

 

Bringing Ryan back and putting him straight back in the team in place of Barlow was a catastrophe ,even the best don't get everything correct.

 

Almost all the players we had then were on a different stratosphere to what we can afford nowadays.

There have always been imbalances in revenue , but today it is farcical .

For 2 decades we could produce a team of home grown talent , journeymen and a sprinkling of quality , exciting players.

 

Nowadays , we cannot have even one exciting player such as Baxter for any time, before someone takes him off us.

 

The piece at the top of this thread , is excellent

[Laticsbiffo]

Hear, Hear........

[losesome]

One of the big problems now is that Latics fans have endured 20 sh*te years basically.

The first opportunity of a hint of winning and our expectations go through the roof.

We cling onto the least bit of optimism then scream and shout when things come of the rails.

 

Human nature of such a sustained length of desperation.

 

LJ needs time and we have to analyse when the season is over , wherever we finish compare with last season to see what progress is made.

 

Top half finish would be progress and any flirtation with the play offs is a bonus.

 

Just hope that he learns from his mistakes because LJ is our best hope of bringing some success to the club in the long term!!

Edited December 23, 2014 by losesome

[Hands on]

Great post.

 

Let us not forget that SC recognised the potential of LJ when he gave him a four year contract. Let us not forget that this group of players is better than the group we had last year. Let us not forget how down we all felt after two cup exits. Let us not forget that our players are people just like you and me and some days it just does not happen as in the Yeovil game. Let us not forget that you learn more by making mistakes as in the starting line up for the Yeovil game. Let us not forget that after all the hype about Bristol City, MK Dons are probably the best team in the division and we were ripe for the taking.

 

Let us look forward to remembering a good win on Boxing Day when almost all will be forgiven!

[Scapegoat]

One of the big problems now is that Latics fans have endured 20 sh*te years basically.

The first opportunity of a hint of winning and our expectations go through the roof.

We cling onto the least bit of optimism then scream and shout when things come of the rails.

 

“It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." ~ John Cleese aka Brian Stimpson, Clockwise

[losesome]

 

“It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." ~ John Cleese aka Brian Stimpson, Clockwise

but it's better to have some hope than no hope !!!!

[Scapegoat]

Worth taking a look at this site and reviewing the stats for Joe's first few years with regards attendances:

 

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/olda.htm

 

7,000 down to just over 4,500 in his first 5 years, on top of the league positions he would have been seriously under pressure. You do wonder what gave the board the confidence to stick with him at that stage as everything would have been pushing them to make a change - perhaps Joe has some incriminating photos of Ian Stott and blackmailed him?

[lookersstandandy]

Not come across that site before Scapegoat, thanks. In hindsight, that 2010 Penney season really did a lot of damage to numbers didn't it? Last season was the first season we increased the gate in 5 years. Our attendance position of 70th or 71st the last 5 years says we should be in the 4th tier.

 

The sooner we can get that new stand and bar open the better.... anything to tempt a few more back.... plus steady improvement from LJ on the field and the new commercial lad off it..... with a following wind we might be able to push closer to the 6k mark we need to 'break even' according to SC.

 

The 'fans' will come back if we play better some say..... if you don't turn up because we're not winning every week then you're just an 'entertainment mercenary' in my book.

 

Your club needs you. Turn up on Boxing day!!!!

[Scapegoat]

A new stand, and some good marketing from the new commercial chap could be a significant factor in boosting interest. If we can time that with an ever improving side under LJ it might provide enough of an impetus to allow us to have a genuine chance of getting out of this league in the right direction.

 

I remember a few mates coming along to Latics in the late 80s to see the 'bigger than Wembley' scoreboard and getting hooked on the performances of what would become our greatest ever team (arguably) and kept on coming - we'll at least for a few years (a few drifted away after 5+ years at this level).