IceStationLatic

Yeah that's why I'm so concerned. You knew what was coming second half - the sad thing was Donny barely had to lift their game at all to stop us having any chances. All we did first half was keep on level par and not make any big mistakes - still not enough to celebrate to be honest. Our creativity was just non-existent. The tactics were seemingly non-existent bar lumping it to Grounds. It just looks like we are sitting 'in shape' but with no freedom/confidence to attack. When they do get forward, it's so telegraphed and simple to defend - no-one taking anyone on, no cutting passes, no movement to keep the opposition guessing and create space. If you playing a slightly deep midfield, it's obvious you HAVE to attack/counter with pace. Or at least plays balls down the channels. Baxter and Derbyshire didn't even have anything to chase. Derbyshire looked like he was rusting through inactivity and started making mistakes. The one chance Baxter got through the middle, from a defensive error, he rushed and scuffed the shot. Finding it hard to just brush it off as a 'we were always going to lose to a 'good' team, roll on the cup', because there was so little to give hope for our ability to win future games. We've got to at least have a go on Saturday. Donny will just sit deep and hope to nick a goal, like they pretty much did last night. There's no excuses if we don't throw everything at them. If we lose, I think it will be PD's last game.

Exactly as I feared. It's like we're going stale. One tactic - long ball to Grounds, until the Smith panic button. Awful goal. Donny were so poor it was untrue. But we didn't even have a go. There doesn't seem to be any cohesion. When we did pass it, we're either pressed back to the keeper or pushed out wide and an average cross is headed clear. We've got one of the league's best strike partnerships, but they barely get the ball. Even Derbyshire was making mistakes tonight - his heart doesn't look in it. He looks fed up. I can sympathise. Baxter too made errors. So many just 6/10, enough to avoid being blamed, but no spark to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. Critics of Furman looked silly tonight. I'd gladly watched him pass to another Latics player - sideways or backwards a rather than Groundhog Day long balls to Grounds. There's no spark. Nothing to suggest tactics or formations are working. Thoroughly disillusioned

Dickov might be saying to us "the pressure is off, no-one expects us to win". To the players he's probably saying, "go and prove them all wrong because I expect that we can win and I believe in you". If they suddenly play better football tonight then perhaps that shows PD is right about this 'negative culture' and Boundary Park pressure affecting the players. However, should it? And does this rationale from the manager give the players an excuse? Hopefully PD can make sure it's a motivator, not an excuse for a collective roll over from the players - 'oh they're a good side, we'll bounce back, the cup game will be totally different' etc

That's what happens when Dickov/the players make 4-4-2 work, but to apply that you have to move the ball quickly - that's where the confidence comes in. Move the ball too slowly and make too many safe passes and, as we've seen, the opposition just get tight on our wingers and add a body in midfield to go three on two. Then there's no stretching at all. A prime example was Sheff Wed right at the start of the season - we blitzed it first half, then they went five in midfield and suddenly we lost drive, momentum and confidence. Are the players intelligent enough to understand all this 'keeping shape' enough? Is it too easy to defend against, particularly in a 4-4-2 - eg the usual move the ball out wide to a winger or a full-back overlapping, other team shifts across; end product - corner; centre-back heads clear, nil. They play through the middle, long-rage shot - force keeper into a save; the extra midfielder turns and runs from deep, threads through a ball - almost puts a centre-forward in on goal. They might have a third of the possession but have more shots! Aside from tactics, my own view is that I want Dickov to be angry Dickov a lot, not just one of the boys. Yes you have to keep a squad happy, but you also have to discipline them. Yes players will want to stay if it's a good positive atmosphere in training, but they also will in that case because it's 'comfortable'. At Grimsby, where I work, the joint managers they have are very firm - the players will look scared after one shocker (they know what's coming), even when they're top of the league. They slip up the odd time yes, but it's rare now - the 'same old Town', 'typical Town' negativity was fading even before they went top of the league. When they f up the odd time, you can tell they've been scolded and there's always a big response next game. I want Dickov to keep the players on their toes. I don't want this 'battling mentality' to pull us out the drop zone, then just reverting to type and it 'just not being our night', bemoaning culture of negativity etc. Tomorrow night is my local game this season as I can't make Scunny away. I'll be driving down pretty disillusioned to be honest and just hope the players will perform and lift me. If Saunders has Donny playing anything like he used to have Wrexham in the Conference, it will be a direct, physical, pressing 4-3-3. If that's the case and we don't have the stomach for it, we'll struggle to get out our own half and we'll just be battered in midfield. I hope there's some magic from somewhere - one light at the end of the M180....... Jose Baxter Baby.

Tonk was the loan deal that fell through? Or did his deal finish at Sumderland? I think we need to play to players' strengths more. Smith isn't Ibra - get him in the box, turning towards goal more. He can still cause a nuisance even if he's not Fellaini. Derbyshire needs low to mid-range passes down channels, like for the Shrews goal, before he turns insane from a lack of service. Is Croft still a winger? He can cross but has he got the pace? He's still got touch and technique so maybe he'd be better in a midfield three with Wabara doing the leg work as a wing back? Why is Furman impressing do much for SA, then looks a bit more average here? What's happened to Wes? - he's supposed to be the muscle,given a free range to chase and harass players to win the ball in midfield. Maybe he's not the same since the shoulder injury. I wonder if Simpson was playing through an injury for a while - but I think he'd be best in a front three rather than a 'number ten' role.

Get the players playing a better formation than the outdated 4-4-2, rather than trying something for 45min in a home game, hearing a few boos, and abandoning it in a panic. Some teams still play it well don't get me wrong, but there's a reason it's being ditched at all levels. We appear a clear answer to why - teams double up on our wingers and play three in the middle or drop a striker back. That pushes our 'two' deep. We then resort to long balls to isolated strikers and can't follow up effectively. It's like England!

Yeah I agree with the suggested team. I think Croft also play in the central three due to his touch and passing - his weight might be in advantage in the middle too!! We saw something a bit similar in the home draw v Scunthorpe. Derbyshire and Smith started, but Simpson took over Smith's role and Baxter came on playing just off the front two. They rotated a lot (perhaps helped by moving away from a rigid 4-4-2) and we were all over them at the end. We even scored... And then Croft did a Gazza after Simpson had found tonnes of space on the left of the front three - we were 3-4-3 at that point I think!

If Smith continues to perform again when he gets his proper chance on Saturday - ie a start - I think that might tempt Dickov towards going 4-3-3. I can't see him dropping Baxter and Derbyshire, but if Smith scores again and plays well then there will be a lot of pressure to keep him in the team. I don't believe you have to have wingers to play that system. It's not just 'hoof'. You hit it long from the back when necessary but when Smith wins headers and the ball breaks down in midfield from pressing high, that's when you play your football - higher up the pitch. Having three up top offers more outlets. The two wide lads can also be found with relatively simple balls down the channels, which either drag the other team's full-backs back or tempt the centre-backs to cover and split - leaving space. The main thing, though, is that it's simply harder to pick men up - there's much more fluidity in the system. We keep getting out-numbered so easily in the middle in a 4-4-2, 4-4-1. And in those formations, as soon as we try to 'get it down and play', we just tend to move the ball out wide - and when it's not done with enough pace, it's too easy to defend against as we've seen with teams doubling up on Croft and Montano by pushing their full-backs up to join the wingers and then playing five across the middle to frustrate us in midfield. That, consequently, has led to the 'sideways and backwards passing', wasting time. Then we've resorted to hitting it long and drifted into the inevitable 'flick-on' from Smith/Simpson that playing with two strikers seems to encourage. Sod that, They need to control it and find the runners - but that and the flick-ons would surely be easier for Smith in my opinion if you have two up there alongside him. Also, if the ball sticks up top, or the three midfielders mop up winning second balls and can keep it, that's when the full-backs overlap and you get the width. If they get forward and the other team counter, obviously the midfielders cover back - again note the fluidity. Anyway, back to 4-4-2 on Saturday.

Football players are like kids. But spoilt kids. They are paid exceptional money and enjoy good facilities. So easy to drift into a comfort zone with an arm around the shoulder manager. Chairman cares, manager cares and says he hurt more than anyone in defeat, Simpson in Chron says players are trying and hurt too - but ultimately, the team doesn't play like that's the case. The Bury performance is still the most frustrating out the last three? It just seems we are spineless, have no leaders, and everyone is pointing fingers - and having reported on a well-paid Grimsby team going out the league, I can affirm the blatantly obvious that that cocktail = relegation material. Worrying times

Finding the words to help get us three points... But in fairness, he hasn't been doing that enough after a lot of time....! If he can't against a team that's just got spanked 5-0 at home... The depressing prediction: quotes to say don't underestimating a team that'll be fighting for their lives and want to bounce back, and then we'll sit back and pay them too much respect and they'll grow in belief and get something. In fairness last season's win there came off the back of a poor run, but I fear the worst. You know things are bad when you'd happily consider Phil Brown. He knocked back Pools probably due to £; maybe he'd be tempted because of the squad on paper..?

It's a shame cause I want Simpson to work in midfield. He adds much-needed height and can pass. He (should) naturally drift forward too, which at least gives some fluidity - as soon as a 4-4-2 gets static, you get over-run in central midfield imo. That's when we seem to just drift into sideways passing - the other team just press high up and use their full-backs to double up on our wingers - and then our frontmen get isolated, the ball drifts back to our defenders (unlikely to pick wonder passes) and we end up just hitting it long. The opposition just keeps pressing, the cycle repeats, and then they try to profit from a set-piece or a mistake. We don't see training, however, so you have to presume the others aren't cutting it rather than it being a simple case of the undropables?

Bouzanis Wabara Byrne M'Voto Grounds Simpson Winchester/M'Changama Croft Baxter Montano Derbyshire

I thought he was made a scapegoat against Stevenage to be honest. For a young lad stepping in to a team with no confidence, he improved during the half despite being the first to be targeted by moans and groans from the Main Stand. He kept the ball, went in for a tackle, and was involved in the two or three passing moves going forward that generated our only chances in the 45min - the best was a lovely move that ended in Montano having a shot inside the box I think. It was hardly like Furman (dropping deep and passing sideways without enough pace) and M'Changama (drifted out of possession off the ball and arguably didn't press enough) were doing a sterling job either. It was harsh that he was sacrificed at the break. When we went 4-4-2 second half, we had a few corners and got the ball into the box for a change to get the crowd off the team's back - but in fairness we looked more likely to concede again and didn't actually create any more clear-cut chances. And we didn't keep the ball as well after Winchester went off. We only got possession in the final ten minutes when Stevenage dropped back to hang on for a textbook 1-0 away win.

I have the pleasure of reporting on Grimsby games for my job and, to be fair, Colbeck's done well. It's important to remember he's dropped two divisions though... But he was delivering some good crosses earlier this season, getting a fair share of assists. Grimsby are now second in the league (despite losing at Hyde the other night) and are a very solid and organised team - Rob Scott and Paul Hurst have transformed the place after a decade of decline. Colbeck has been an ever-present but he's just picked up a knee injury. Right now the Mariners have wingers Marcus Marshall and Scott Neilson on loan from Bury and Crawley respectively. Neilson, in particular, is a class act at Conference level.

Fair enough. But by that logic, does that mean... the fabulous display at Crewe, the battling tenacity at Bramall Lane and Crawley, the professionalism at Kidderminster, the general improvement in performance levels over recent weeks (Carlisle and Bury aside) is down to one man - Paul Dickov?

Furman came off the bench after they had scored the equaliser...

Noticed Simpson quite far forward too. Another thing of note is that with Simpson in midfield, he naturally drifts forward (because he's used to playing the number 10 role) as well as offering height. This helps our high-pressing tempo game as, with Wes sitting, we appear to end up playing a sort of 4-1-3-2, with lots of movement and fluidity, involving Baxter, Simpson and Derbyshire. In this system, if we do win the ball in midfield, we have plenty of forward passing options available and it's difficult for the opposition to pick everyone up. In the past with 4-4-1-1, with two centre-mids sitting a bit, when we have won the ball there haven't been many options apart from knocking it sideways to the wingers, who just get cramped out, or trying to thread it to the number ten, who would also be under pressure from midfielders while the opposition's centre-backs man-mark an isolated front-man. We end up being too deep, basically, and it invites the opposition to press us. Flexibility and movement is key to high-tempo pressing; if you are too predictable and static positionally (which a basic 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 can cause), it's easy for teams to press and pass around you in my opinion.

I only watched the highlights around L1 just now on the iPlayer but..............no mention

Guess it's possible to be overly positive after away games because fewer fans are there and those that are are mostly the loyal diehards

I wasn't there tonight. But I must admit I had a twinge of worry when PD said in his press conference about the need to pay Carlisle respect despite their bad run. Not that I'm blaming him, but did that translate to the players as be cautious and then that gave them space to play and build confidence? Anyway, was always going to be a tough game on a Tue night. Crawley away will be a challenge also, but hopefully tonight will motivate the players to bounce back

Heard them say on TalkSport tonight: "Watch out for Chris Taylor, a really good young winger."

Totally understand their viewpoint - as a player you do whatever it takes, whatever works (!), to win. It's not their place to give a damn about the ethics of the game etc That's the problem, of two parts. 1 It works, so it is encouraged. 2 They get away with it. It's becoming a joke now - take Andy Carroll's dive and Gareth Bale's one, both when they went past the goalkeeper and, particularly the former, still had a chance to score. The former point is massively encouraged for another reason - the last-man rule. Not only do you get a goal from the penalty in most cases, but you often get one of the opposition sent off. It's a double bonus! Teams see it happen to them, so managers are always going to urge their players to swing those decisions their way. Video replays - which aren't going to happen - would help for me. They wouldn't slow the game down. It would take less than a minute for a fourth official to watch a few replays. When a penalty and red card is given, it usually takes at least that time when you think of the players protesting, surrounding the referee and the red-carded player slowly trudging off the pitch. It should be done for game-changing offside calls too. But that's just a pipe dream. The only realistic option at present is retrospective punishment for diving, when it's obvious. Then for players, it might still 'work' if it was used to get the points at the time, but the manager won't be patting him on the back quite as hard if his star striker was then suspended for the next three games. Some might say it would be hard to ban a player for subtly 'leaving his trailing leg' - but I think in most cases it's pretty obvious when it's done deliberately, particularly as it's followed by a theatrical superman dive. If it can't be proved, so what. At least they would have looked into it - players would know they were being watched and the 'risk' of diving, which would become a double-edged sword.

And credit to Smith by the way. Some strikers would have gone down when they felt the contact if that was the case, and the referee might not have given it - particularly in the context. To stop diving being the best option, for the most part, we can't rely on honest players. Referees need to pull back play and give fouls after a brief advantage. It does my nut in hearing MOTD commentators moaning about diving one minute, then saying 'if he'd gone down there he probably would have got the penalty' the next!

Similar to last season when Kuqi was fouled only for Creswell to pull off a superb goal-scoring header anyway

And didn't they say Derbyshire scored, and then said he was our main threat all game, even though it was Grounds that stuck it in ?! and Derbyshire was relatively quiet (although his movement was still excellent)