a moan

[garcon]

Corporal, you seem utterly convinced of this notion that the club lacks ambition. Try telling that to the Port Vale fans and they'll laugh in your face.

 

I take no joy in Vale's fate by the way - a friend of mine is closely involved in the club, sits in the box, has as good an idea of what's going on as anyone who isn't actually on the board... and it's bad. Very bad.

[Corporal_Jones]

Who are these magical clubs which consistantly reach the holy grail all the time. C'mon, out with it!

 

 

 

What are you talking about? Is it simply a collective delusion of ours that clubs are promoted from each division every twelve months, or what?

 

As for the financial affairs of individual clubs who have achieved promotion, I have no idea, but I suspect that those who climb highest do, for obvious reasons, make enough money to make a significant difference to their financial plights. I can't help thinking that Bolton are financially healthier than when they were in the Third Division, for example. Ding dong!

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Corporal_Jones]

Corporal, you seem utterly convinced of this notion that the club lacks ambition. Try telling that to the Port Vale fans and they'll laugh in your face.

 

I take no joy in Vale's fate by the way - a friend of mine is closely involved in the club, sits in the box, has as good an idea of what's going on as anyone who isn't actually on the board... and it's bad. Very bad.

 

 

 

As I said, I don't claim that the club lacks ambition. I'm just not convinced that this ambition involves us ever playing at a higher level again.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

What are you talking about? Is it simply a collective delusion of ours that clubs are promoted from each division every twelve months, or what?

 

As for the financial affairs of individual clubs who have achieved promotion, I have no idea, but I suspect that those who climb highest do, for obvious reasons, make enough money to make a significant difference to their financial plights. I can't help thinking that Bolton are financially healthier than when they were in the Third Division, for example. Ding dong!

 

No, I'm trying to get from you some examples of clubs that have won promotion, and sustained themselves afterwards whilst recurring heavy weekly losses in akin, or worse than ours. It's not a curveball, I just want to know which teams you have in mind.

 

Ahh Bolton. So, after being a yo-yo club for 5 years they achieve what loads of club would like to achieve. After Burnden Park was bulldozed, mind. Football was quite a different beast in the years pre-Reebok Stadium.

 

You seem to scorn folk for speculating, and second-guessing when you'd like FACTS yet peculiarly you seem happy to speculate and suggest yourself when you see fit.

[Corporal_Jones]

I have to say Corporal, I do understand where you are coming from, however, maybe TTA see that as too much of a risk right now.

 

They may well be willing to 'speculate to accumulate' as it's been said to get us out of this division. The longer term implications of that have to be considered as well though.

 

If we did spend a few extra quid - maybe not huge sums, but perhaps more than would be considered 'safe', what happens when we get promoted? We then have to speculate to accumulate to stay in that division. We already know that the wages in the championship are significantly higher than they are in this league. What happens if we start badly and are around the bottom 3 or 4 come November and December? The 'new found' fans will soon be sick of watching us get beat week in week out and the whole thing starts over.

 

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't be prepared to have a stab at it, just that I'd rather we were in a position (as a club) where we could sustain the higher wages by having better facilities/revenue streams etc rather than a bust or boom scenario.

 

 

 

Again, though, this 'wait for the new stadium' approach ignores the fact that the whole scheme remains on paper as yet, that we have no firm evidence that significant money will be ploughed into the playing side (assuming that the extra stadium revenue is actually forthcoming in the first place), and that, on all available evidence, anything could hapen on the playing side between now and then, reliant as we're are on the kind of playing squads that could get us relegated as easily as to the fringes of the play-offs (but, as last season demonstrated, lacks what it takes for the final push. )

 

Are there any other clubs who based their success solely on the building of a new stadium? Again taking Bolton as the example (similar size town in a similar geographical proximity to Manchester), they had already put themselves in the position of being one of the Premeier League's 'yo-yo clubs' before they moved stadium-thus benefiting from the parachute payments and so on.

[garcon]

As I said, I don't claim that the club lacks ambition. I'm just not convinced that this ambition involves us ever playing at a higher level again.

On the contrary, I think TTA can see all too well the state of lower league football and its future. And their assessment is that there is absolutely no future in the club staying at this level. The only way the club can progress, and the only way their vision can work as a long term business plan is to gain promotion to and consolidate within the Championship. I am utterly convinced of that, and I am utterly convinced of TTA's ambition and intent to deliver it.

 

I think the problem you and a sizeable minority of fans have is impatience, and maybe a failure to truly accept just how critical it is for the progress to be made in a sustainable way on absolutely sound foundations. It takes time.

[Corporal_Jones]

No, I'm trying to get from you some examples of clubs that have won promotion, and sustained themselves afterwards whilst recurring heavy weekly losses in akin, or worse than ours. It's not a curveball, I just want to know which teams you have in mind.

 

Ahh Bolton. So, after being a yo-yo club for 5 years they achieve what loads of club would like to achieve. After Burnden Park was bulldozed, mind. Football was quite a different beast in the years pre-Reebok Stadium.

 

You seem to scorn folk for speculating, and second-guessing when you'd like FACTS yet peculiarly you seem happy to speculate and suggest yourself when you see fit.

 

 

 

I haven't claimed that clubs have been promoted and 'sustained weekly losses akin to ours.' My whole argument has been based on the premise that there is more chance of thriving the higher you climb. To be sure, there will be promoted clubs who continue to lose money. None of them have gone bust, however. The point being that if we're going to lose money anyway (with good management we might not), I'd rather lose it seeing decent football at a higher level, rather than hanging around the bottom half of the Third Division (or worse) for the next ten years, on the assumption that promotion is beyond us but not Scunthorpe or Colchester.

[Corporal_Jones]

On the contrary, I think TTA can see all too well the state of lower league football and its future. And their assessment is that there is absolutely no future in the club staying at this level. The only way the club can progress, and the only way their vision can work as a long term business plan is to gain promotion to and consolidate within the Championship. I am utterly convinced of that, and I am utterly convinced of TTA's ambition and intent to deliver it.

 

 

 

As I say, I sincerely hope you are right.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[garcon]

By the way, teams promoted from League One in recent seasons:

 

2006/7 – Scunthorpe, Bristol City, Blackpool

2005/6 – Southend, Colchester, Barnsley

2004/5 – Luton, Hull City, Sheff Wed

2003/4 – Plymouth, QPR, Brighton

2002/3 – Wigan, Crewe, Cardiff

 

Almost all either back in League One, soon to be, or much bigger than us.

[Corporal_Jones]

I think the problem you and a sizeable minority of fans have is impatience, and maybe a failure to truly accept just how critical it is for the progress to be made in a sustainable way on absolutely sound foundations. It takes time.

 

 

See post number 82.

[Corporal_Jones]

By the way, teams promoted from League One in recent seasons:

 

2006/7 – Scunthorpe, Bristol City, Blackpool

2005/6 – Southend, Colchester, Barnsley

2004/5 – Luton, Hull City, Sheff Wed

2003/4 – Plymouth, QPR, Brighton

2002/3 – Wigan, Crewe, Cardiff

 

Almost all either back in League One, soon to be, or much bigger than us.

 

 

 

Don't see why this is an excuse for not bothering. Hey-maybe we'll even prove the exception to the rule!

 

Are Preston and Burnley really much bigger than us? Any more than Barnsley or Blackpool could be said to be? (Preston might be in trouble this year, but they didn't exactly come straight back down, did they? And they're financially better off then we are, as the Trotman scenario proved.)

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[bigfatjoe1]

The problem is that we don't build a side. As pointed out many times before, the side is ripped apart every close season, which means that we start a season with a new side that has fallen out of the running before it's even begun to gel.

 

We then have the usual, 'will we/won't we make the play-offs?' When we do, a patched-up side of past-it veterans and kids go and bottle it.

 

The only way we will ever get out of this division is by building a decent squad, keeping it together and going all-out for automatic promotion.

 

There is no will at the club to do this.

 

Ideally, it would be nice to have only 3-4 changes over a year, to have a stable core. How else can you really build a 'team.' But I also wonder about the structure of the modern game in the lower leagues. Are we the only one like this? It seems that there are more journeymen than ever, players getting a signing-on fee, staying for 1-2 years and them off to the next signing-on fee and short term contract. Or is it just us? Any stats on player turn over in the lower leagues?

[Corporal_Jones]

Ideally, it would be nice to have only 3-4 changes over a year, to have a stable core. How else can you really build a 'team.' But I also wonder about the structure of the modern game in the lower leagues. Are we the only one like this? It seems that there are more journeymen than ever, players getting a signing-on fee, staying for 1-2 years and them off to the next signing-on fee and short term contract. Or is it just us? Any stats on player turn over in the lower leagues?

 

 

 

We're not the only ones-that's why we're mired in the bottom half of the table amongst the other no-hopers.

[Matt]

As said before, other clubs no bigger than Latics seem able to get out of this division.

Apart from the obvious, how do they achieve this?

 

....6000 and rising is more of a step on the road towards the magical 8000 figure than is 4000 and falling.

How do we do that?

 

The Trotman deal was simple good fortune, that's all.

Yes, it was pure luck. (?)

 

Sorry Corporal but if you think that's gonna happen then you are miles out. When have we EVER attracted those kinds of crowds? Apart from the pinch me seasons when it was comparatively far cheaper to get into games AND most clubs could compete on a reasonably level footing.

 

The game is totally different now.

 

The only way we are likely to progress is to commence with the rebuilding work, bring in some of the peripheral money making enterprises such as the corporate cponsorship/banquesting/conferenceing etc. Improve the matchday environment and experience.

 

Then perhaps we can start to invest some real money on the playing squad. Even then, I'd guess that 7-8000 is about the best we could hope for in the first instance.

Yes, I'd agree with that.

 

As I keep having to point out, it's a vicious circle. Without spending on a quality squad-and keeping it together-we will be going nowhere.

How do we do that?

 

 

The stadium redevelopment actually holds out the only hope for the club, because as Ian Hill said at the Port Vale game, there is no future in what we have now.

Hanfg on we might be getting somewhere...

 

Surely for any football club losing 15K per week the main priority has to be Existance.

It is. TTA have priorities - a new business target is aimed at, once another business target is achieved.

 

As for the financial affairs of individual clubs who have achieved promotion, I have no idea

Go on have a guess, you might as well carry on...

 

You seem to scorn folk for speculating, and second-guessing when you'd like FACTS yet peculiarly you seem happy to speculate and suggest yourself when you see fit.

Ah, scrub that last quote - Jamie's already said it.

 

How about Wigan? - I know, dirty word around here - but would it be okay to suggest they are our model club? And if so - aren't we heading in that direction? Sorry to put a positive slant on things, but y'know - this could be achieved quite quickly.

[Stevie_J]

In any case, mere existence is meaningless when you consider that the very reason for forming a club that competes in professonal sports is to gain success in its chosen sport.

 

If its mere hobbyism you want, we could all go fell walking, or something similarly non-competitive on a Saturday afternoon-and it would be cheaper.

If you think mere existence is meaningless, you're a completely different kind of supporter to me. Isn't that about all supporting a club like Oldham is about - isn't it part of the culture and identity of supporting a team who'll probably never win anything? We've been around over a hundred years without winning any major honours.

[bigfatjoe1]

'mere existence is meaningless'. as ever, you are totally entitled to your views, you have a perfectly reasoned argument, and i'm not having a dig, but i now feel like sitting in a dark corner while i contemplate the wider significance of this.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Are there any other clubs who based their success solely on the building of a new stadium? Again taking Bolton as the example (similar size town in a similar geographical proximity to Manchester), they had already put themselves in the position of being one of the Premeier League's 'yo-yo clubs' before they moved stadium-thus benefiting from the parachute payments and so on.

 

An unfair comparison. The Reebok was being built before they were being a yo-yo club. They were much further down the line planning and stadium-wise when they went up into the top flight for the first time (1996?) than we are now. Like I said, football back then was a much different beast, and Premiership money wasn't as freely available or lucrative as it is now. Bolton struck 'gold' completely at the right time.

 

I can't quite grasp who exactly you're getting at here. Is it the owners not 'committing' enough? Is it the manager, apparently not bring enough players through the door? Perhaps the players we're really after are just asking for that bit too much? The players we let go in the summer - how much did they want financially to stay here? Was it a lot more than the owners or manager deemed they were worth?

 

I think you need to answer all THOSE questions BEFORE you embark on your rants corpral. Over and out.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

We're not the only ones-that's why we're mired in the bottom half of the table amongst the other no-hopers.

 

And this borders along the lines of pure arrogence. How DARE we be brushing shoulders with peasants like Huddersfield and Hartlepool.

[boundaryblue80]

Just for the record, I can't be arsed reading anymore of Corporals ramblings.

 

Anyone who thinks the club lacks ambition, who thinks we should go throwing ridiculous money at it to which very few guarantees are on offer and increasing a currently managable loss (only coz TTA are prepared to do it) and thinks that splashing cash all over the place will bring in the stayaways (which for the small number that would return, wouldn't help cover the losses as they then would've massively increased beyond control) is in cloud-cuckooland. And if success still doesn't come, how long do we do it for??? Till the end of time????

 

I've a mate who feels the same as CJ.....but he doesn't have the same, abject, wrist-slitting outlook CJ has....quite the opposite, his optimism is beyond belief at times....but even he was slagging off the idea that we have to wait now until the stadium is redevloped for some serious cash to be spent on the side, rather than the calculated gambles we have to take to stay solvent (well, solvent thanks to TTA footing the debt.) Saying TTA have the money, if they want us up, is a bogus argument....we've seen the examples. Our own history has shown that....but then you can easily point out the number of seasons the following have/had been throwing money at it....took 3 of them 3 years or more before they finally did it.....the rest still haven't.....

 

B.City (massive crowds)

Wigan (multi-millionaire happy to splash it without a thought to if he ever left)

QPR (brink of administration for years until Mettel arrived)

Forest (massive crowds) and even...

Donny (multi-millionaire happy to splash it without a thought to if he ever left)

 

Those who feel TTA just aren't doing enough, just aren't ambitious enough etc. and still refute the above simply don't want to listen to reason. I'm no happy clapper....I'm pig-sick at still being at this level....but the reasons are as clear as day, unless you're blind, of course! And have to be accepted if we want a club to exist. I do....CJ clearly isn't arsed about the repercussions and seems happen to threaten existence. What's the point on debating with someone with that outlook? IMO...there isn't one.

Edited February 4, 2008 by boundaryblue80

[Diego_Sideburns]

Just for the record, I can't be arsed reading anymore of Corporals ramblings.

 

I didn't get where I am today by reading CJ's ramblings.

[Harry Dowds Green Shirt]

Well, well, well, lets just throw some money at it like Jimmy Frizz and Joe Royle did shall we. Oh hang on! did they not throw money at it to get us promotion. You know the only 2 managers to achieve promotion at our money laden club in the last 40 years.

 

What's that? No they didn't! They did it by working within their crappy budgets, selling our better players and using only some of the proceeds to bring new players in to strengthen their squad overall and at the same time paying off general losses/debts.

 

Don't be daft boys and girls. Look back at history it tells you how to succeed.

 

1) Give a manager time to build his team.

2) Work to a sensible business plan/budget

3) Work to improve revenue streams to ensure any success can be maintained at a higher level for the long term.

 

In terms of those 3 points, we need to back and stick with Sheridan. Yes he has and will make mistakes. JF & JR both did as well. We are working to a sensible business plan at this moment in time even though that is currently being subsidised by tta to make it a balanced budget.

 

In terms of point 3, several posters have made reference to our break even figure. TTA have consistently stated the stadium re-development is crucial to a longer term startegy. The ground redevelopment should be financed by the selling off land for housing. If sufficient funds are received from this then the following additional income will be achievable from the re-invested income: -

 

1) Rental income from offices to private sector £600K

2) Private boxes income 18 @ £10K = £180K

3) Conferencing & banquetting facilities £100K - £250K

4) Income off rental of health club facilities - £50K - £100K

 

The additional income has the same effect as bringing another 3,500 -4,000 fans in through the turnstiles each game (thats pay on the day not season tickets equivalent for those pedantic posters) Add that to the current avearge of 6,500 and you end up with an equivalent of 10,000 fans coming through the turnstiles each match. Our break even figure is around 8,000 so you end up with additional income to reinvest in transfer fees and or wages.

 

That in simple terms is how we make progress. That is how TTA are planning. It is not a quick solution. It is taking longer than they originally planned, but, and this is the important part, they are getting there and that is how we would have a better chance of sustaining ourselves if and when we achieve the ultimate aim of promotion.

 

I know that the above won't satisfy some people on here, BUT THAT IS TTA'S PLAN AND THEY ARE ON THEIR WAY TO ACHIEVING SUCCESS WITH IT.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Harry

[Corporal_Jones]

Apart from the obvious, how do they achieve this?

How do we do that?

Yes, it was pure luck. (?)

Yes, I'd agree with that.

How do we do that?

Hanfg on we might be getting somewhere...

It is. TTA have priorities - a new business target is aimed at, once another business target is achieved.

Go on have a guess, you might as well carry on...

Ah, scrub that last quote - Jamie's already said it.

 

How about Wigan? - I know, dirty word around here - but would it be okay to suggest they are our model club? And if so - aren't we heading in that direction? Sorry to put a positive slant on things, but y'know - this could be achieved quite quickly.

 

 

 

Half of your questions make no sense at all. What, for example, is meant by asking 'how do we do that?, with regard to a reference to crowds of 6000 and rising, when it is obvious that when we were averaging six-and-a-half thousand a few seasons back it was, as pointed out earlier, because the club seemed to be serious about promotion. Remember the close season meeting and all that, resulting in good season ticket sales? And you can place all your hopes for the footballing side on the new stadium should you wish, but so, too, have the pitfalls of this already been highlighted.

 

In what way are we 'heading in the direction of Wigan?' Has somebody put wheels on Boundary Park and started it rolling in a north-westerly direction?

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Corporal_Jones]

Just for the record, I can't be arsed reading anymore of Corporals ramblings.

 

 

 

 

Don't then. I know in advance what kind of reply I'll get in any case.

 

See you when we're having the exact same discussion next year. And then the year after.

[Corporal_Jones]

Well, well, well, lets just throw some money at it like Jimmy Frizz and Joe Royle did shall we. Oh hang on! did they not throw money at it to get us promotion. You know the only 2 managers to achieve promotion at our money laden club in the last 40 years.

 

What's that? No they didn't! They did it by working within their crappy budgets, selling our better players and using only some of the proceeds to bring new players in to strengthen their squad overall and at the same time paying off general losses/debts.

 

Don't be daft boys and girls. Look back at history it tells you how to succeed.

 

1) Give a manager time to build his team.

2) Work to a sensible business plan/budget

3) Work to improve revenue streams to ensure any success can be maintained at a higher level for the long term.

 

In terms of those 3 points, we need to back and stick with Sheridan. Yes he has and will make mistakes. JF & JR both did as well. We are working to a sensible business plan at this moment in time even though that is currently being subsidised by tta to make it a balanced budget.

 

In terms of point 3, several posters have made reference to our break even figure. TTA have consistently stated the stadium re-development is crucial to a longer term startegy. The ground redevelopment should be financed by the selling off land for housing. If sufficient funds are received from this then the following additional income will be achievable from the re-invested income: -

 

1) Rental income from offices to private sector £600K

2) Private boxes income 18 @ £10K = £180K

3) Conferencing & banquetting facilities £100K - £250K

4) Income off rental of health club facilities - £50K - £100K

 

The additional income has the same effect as bringing another 3,500 -4,000 fans in through the turnstiles each game (thats pay on the day not season tickets equivalent for those pedantic posters) Add that to the current avearge of 6,500 and you end up with an equivalent of 10,000 fans coming through the turnstiles each match. Our break even figure is around 8,000 so you end up with additional income to reinvest in transfer fees and or wages.

 

That in simple terms is how we make progress. That is how TTA are planning. It is not a quick solution. It is taking longer than they originally planned, but, and this is the important part, they are getting there and that is how we would have a better chance of sustaining ourselves if and when we achieve the ultimate aim of promotion.

 

I know that the above won't satisfy some people on here, BUT THAT IS TTA'S PLAN AND THEY ARE ON THEIR WAY TO ACHIEVING SUCCESS WITH IT.

 

Cheers,

Harry

 

 

 

Your post would be more relevant if I had suggested 'throwing money' at the problem, which I haven't. Or if I had suggested getting rid of the manager-which I haven't. Or if I had questioned TTA's commitment to the stadium redevelopment-which I haven't.

 

What I have done is questioned the wisdom of pinning all our hopes on a plan that, as yet, remains on paper only, and highlighted a number of the reasons why.

 

We do not, by the way, currently average 6,500 and are in a situation where gates are falling due to there being nothing to play for. I guarantee you that season ticket sales for the next campaign will, unless serious promotion intent is outlined, be almost as low as durng the close season when Ronnie Moore was sacked, if not as low. That is because most Oldhamers, even those who declare themselves Latics supporters, do not think like the die-hards on boards like this.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Matt]

Half of your questions make no sense at all. What, for example, is meant by asking 'how do we do that?, with regard to a reference to crowds of 6000 and rising, when it is obvious that when we were averaging six-and-a-half thousand a few seasons back it was, as pointed out earlier, because the club seemed to be serious about promotion. Remember the close season meeting and all that, resulting in good season ticket sales? And you can place all your hopes for the footballing side on the new stadium should you wish, but so, too, have the pitfalls of this already been highlighted.

I'm pointing out that all of your requests need cash. Long term revenue.

 

How do we get the crowds in? How do we develop the playing staff? How do we progress? All I'm hearing from you - even when there's a plan in the pipeline - is OAFC RIP. Prioritise business targets, aim to achieve. Do not plan to fail. The building blocks are there to springboard us to success, let's look to a stable future with prospects in the long term rather than a short term cash injection. I don't want that again thankyou very much. We nearly lost our club for ever.

 

How many times have we said this - it really is hammer and chisel territory now...

 

In what way are we 'heading in the direction of Wigan?' Has somebody put wheels on Boundary Park and started it rolling in a north-westerly direction?

...and in the comedy corner is Mrs Jones - you know what I mean. Trying to degrade my position with daft quips and japes is not very mature. You've put up a brave fight, and clearly against general opinion - don't make a fool out of yourself now...