Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 There is a really interesting article in the League Paper today. It speaks about Burnley racking up record losses to reach the Premier League and it being "the best gamble in the clubs history. The story goes on to ask what if they hadn't reached the promsised land. Their Chief Exec said they wouldn't have done a Leeds, but others say it's easy to be smug with hindsight especially with £60m in TV revenue sitting in the bank. Between June 2008 and June 2009, Burnely'e wage bill rose from £9.7m to £13.4m. (Ours is £1.7m) Turnover was just £11.1M (Ours is circa £2.5-£3M) Burnley are spending 120 per cent of income on wages. Whats the betting they become the next Southampton? They then turn to Preston who this week announced pre tax losses of £9.17Million. Yes that s right NINE point ONE SEVEN MILLION POUNDS. Their chairman Derek Shaw stated it was becoming "increasingly difficult to continue to meet the expectations of fans who want the club to be competing for promotion every year." He went on to say "this level of loss is totally unsustainable for any business and has only been possible with loan funding from Major shareholders." At the root of Prestons problem was of course players wages which rose by a staggering 25 per cent from around £9m to £11.2m in the year. Like Burnley, Preston took a risk, but unlike Burnley despite reaching the playoffs they failed. The Preston board realised the danger and this season has seen a huge clearout of players including club legend Paul McKenna and the unpopular sale of centre back Sean St Ledger to Middlesbrough. The story finishes by posing the question Preston will be OK, but how many others will throw good money after bad and go for broke? Weve already seenSouthend and Accrington go bust, while Swindon and Millwall have announced losses of £3m and £5m respectively. I found the story compeling reading and it took me back to the Chris M**re era at Boundary Park. We threw good money (that we didn't have) after bad and so so nearly lost our club. Others are still doing the same thing and someone will ultimately pay the price. It is going to happen sooner or later. Clubs at our level, the likes of Brighton (who have a very rich backer - for now) Millwall, Huddersfield, Leeds, Southampton, Norwich all have wage bills in excess of £5 million. Whilst the last 3 have attandances that can sustain that level, the others haven't. Swidons and Millwalls losses of £3m and £5m are not sustainable. The only way that this never ending overspending can be stopped is by the introduction of wage caps. The football league were supposed to be bringing this in, but it stalled. The sooner it is introduced, the better. It stops clubs having an unfair advantage by spending money they don't have whilst other sensible clubs run with a sensible budget. Cheers, Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 There is a really interesting article in the League Paper today. It speaks about Burnley racking up record losses to reach the Premier League and it being "the best gamble in the clubs history. The story goes on to ask what if they hadn't reached the promsised land. Their Chief Exec said they wouldn't have done a Leeds, but others say it's easy to be smug with hindsight especially with £60m in TV revenue sitting in the bank. Between June 2008 and June 2009, Burnely'e wage bill rose from £9.7m to £13.4m. (Ours is £1.7m) Turnover was just £11.1M (Ours is circa £2.5-£3M) Burnley are spending 120 per cent of income on wages. Whats the betting they become the next Southampton? They then turn to Preston who this week announced pre tax losses of £9.17Million. Yes that s right NINE point ONE SEVEN MILLION POUNDS. Their chairman Derek Shaw stated it was becoming "increasingly difficult to continue to meet the expectations of fans who want the club to be competing for promotion every year." He went on to say "this level of loss is totally unsustainable for any business and has only been possible with loan funding from Major shareholders." At the root of Prestons problem was of course players wages which rose by a staggering 25 per cent from around £9m to £11.2m in the year. Like Burnley, Preston took a risk, but unlike Burnley despite reaching the playoffs they failed. The Preston board realised the danger and this season has seen a huge clearout of players including club legend Paul McKenna and the unpopular sale of centre back Sean St Ledger to Middlesbrough. The story finishes by posing the question Preston will be OK, but how many others will throw good money after bad and go for broke? Weve already seenSouthend and Accrington go bust, while Swindon and Millwall have announced losses of £3m and £5m respectively. I found the story compeling reading and it took me back to the Chris M**re era at Boundary Park. We threw good money (that we didn't have) after bad and so so nearly lost our club. Others are still doing the same thing and someone will ultimately pay the price. It is going to happen sooner or later. Clubs at our level, the likes of Brighton (who have a very rich backer - for now) Millwall, Huddersfield, Leeds, Southampton, Norwich all have wage bills in excess of £5 million. Whilst the last 3 have attandances that can sustain that level, the others haven't. Swidons and Millwalls losses of £3m and £5m are not sustainable. The only way that this never ending overspending can be stopped is by the introduction of wage caps. The football league were supposed to be bringing this in, but it stalled. The sooner it is introduced, the better. It stops clubs having an unfair advantage by spending money they don't have whilst other sensible clubs run with a sensible budget. Cheers, Harry Thanks Harry, very interesting that. A harsh lesson, that we have already learned, not to over stretch ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 To be perfectly honest I hadn't thought PNE has thrown that much at the play-offs. I suppose both Parkin and Mellor get meals, it all adds up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futchers briefs Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Puts into perspective really (regardless of some of the doom and gloom/"Reality!!" merchants), how stable our club actually is in terms of future debt - the club continues to move towards self sufficiency, albeit with the playing side taking a 'sensible' approach to it's wages and budget, thus making promotion difficult - though looking at some of the stats presented there - long term, is it worth it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Ok Burnley's wage bill grew by that much over the year but how much of that was bonuses for them winning key games (they got to the semis of the league cup and the quarters of the FA cup) didn't they? Plus what about any extra bonuses for getting promoted do they count? I'm all in favour of a wage cap- its something that football will need otherwise teams from all levels will soon be going bust. However, Real Madrid can afford to spend god knows what on the wages for Ronaldo, Kaka et al. that means that those clubs competing with them- the Man U, Chelsea, Liverpools and even Citeh have to be prepared to spend similar wages to get the same sort of quality player. This means those teams like Pompey, Notlob and Burnley have to spend a certain amount to get the sort of player they want/need and so on down the footballing pyramdi. The world would have to agree on a salary cap otherwise certain teams will benefit and others will be punished and there is no way that Perez, the Real madrid president- who is a bit weird- would agree. I doubt, the Glazers and Abrahmovic would be all that keen either as they use their increased spending ability to get the players they want. It might be possible to say if you are in this division you can only spend x amount on a player's wages, but once you get to the Premiership it be a free for all. In reality, this actually happens for example, Gregan wanted a certain amount, found that no one wanted to pay him that so came to us for less than he wanted. The salary cap is a definate idea to stop clubs spending beyond their means but for many that will mean instead of the players getting rich, the owners do. Only a stupid man would buy a football club to make money as for every Al-Fayed there is a Chris Moore, TTA, the bloke from Southend, the bloke from Swindon etc. The problem with money in football stems from TV companies- if i was looking to change football in that way I'd start with them as opposed to the players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 This sounds like lack of ambition to me. We're losing what? £1.4m each year? A club of our size should be aiming for £3m losses at least, Corney out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underdog Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 This sounds like lack of ambition to me. We're losing what? £1.4m each year? A club of our size should be aiming for £3m losses at least, Corney out. ???????...can you explain why we should have a higher deficit to me? Then again, the way our fan base is shrinking it may become a reality. Cheers harry for the post by the way - very interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 ???????...can you explain why we should have a higher deficit to me? I may be wrong but I think it was a humourous dig at CJ re ambition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangerinedreams Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 ???????...can you explain why we should have a higher deficit to me? Then again, the way our fan base is shrinking it may become a reality. Cheers harry for the post by the way - very interesting Said tongue in cheek me thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underdog Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I may be wrong but I think it was a humourous dig at CJ re ambition. oooHHHHHHHhhhh.....man humour...tut...ta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underdog Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Said tongue in cheek me thinks. man humour.....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 oooHHHHHHHhhhh.....man humour...tut...ta I didn't get where I am today without recognising humour relating to CJ, even when it's not involving a whoopee cushion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Puts into perspective really (regardless of some of the doom and gloom/"Reality!!" merchants), how stable our club actually is in terms of future debt - the club continues to move towards self sufficiency, albeit with the playing side taking a 'sensible' approach to it's wages and budget, thus making promotion difficult - though looking at some of the stats presented there - long term, is it worth it?? ...or to view it another way - look at how the demands of the by-and-large diva-esque players are putting too much stress on the market, effectively squeezing out the B-list teams. I blame Jimmy Hill. There was a little story told on SSN the other day about a top footballer and his gardener. The gardener showed up at the players "castle" on the wrong day or something like that. The footballer then rang his agent to ask why on God's Green Earth had this peasant turned up on the wrong day. The agent replied that he will look into it, the agent then asked the player to go outside and tell the gardener to return when it suited the player. The player wasn't having this. He made it perfectly clear that the agent should ring the gardener himself to instruct the man to clear off. So he did, probably with a great deal of disbelief. The agent rang the gardener up, who was stood 15 yards away from the player looking on... I hope the gardener put in an invoice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 There was a little story told on SSN the other day about a top footballer and his gardener. The gardener showed up at the players "castle" on the wrong day or something like that. The footballer then rang his agent to ask why on God's Green Earth had this peasant turned up on the wrong day. The agent replied that he will look into it, the agent then asked the player to go outside and tell the gardener to return when it suited the player. The player wasn't having this. He made it perfectly clear that the agent should ring the gardener himself to instruct the man to clear off. So he did, probably with a great deal of disbelief. The agent rang the gardener up, who was stood 15 yards away from the player looking on... A great reason to support a lower league team with piss poor players who occasionally work a full shift! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 ...or to view it another way - look at how the demands of the by-and-large diva-esque players are putting too much stress on the market, effectively squeezing out the B-list teams. I blame Jimmy Hill. There was a little story told on SSN the other day about a top footballer and his gardener. The gardener showed up at the players "castle" on the wrong day or something like that. The footballer then rang his agent to ask why on God's Green Earth had this peasant turned up on the wrong day. The agent replied that he will look into it, the agent then asked the player to go outside and tell the gardener to return when it suited the player. The player wasn't having this. He made it perfectly clear that the agent should ring the gardener himself to instruct the man to clear off. So he did, probably with a great deal of disbelief. The agent rang the gardener up, who was stood 15 yards away from the player looking on... I hope the gardener put in an invoice. I hope he put in Japanese Knotweed so that it took over the garden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 You have got to hope he was not a defender, bottling out of achallenge so easily! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 The only way that this never ending overspending can be stopped is by the introduction of wage caps. The football league were supposed to be bringing this in, but it stalled. The sooner it is introduced, the better. It stops clubs having an unfair advantage by spending money they don't have whilst other sensible clubs run with a sensible budget. I would go one step further and set a maximum wage bill for each club to work to. Create a level playing field. Will never happen though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunteruk Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I would go one step further and set a maximum wage bill for each club to work to. Create a level playing field. Will never happen though. ok in principal its a good idea...but how do you implement such a wage cap would it be a weekly wage cap or a yearly wage cap say for instance...premier league players get paid say 100k a year,then it filters down respectively??? you can introduce a wage cap,but it wouldnt stop the club paying bonuses to players would it..so if you set a wage in proportion the club could say,ok goal bonus,5k win bonus 4k etc etc.....so in reality they will still live past there means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hey. Let's set a maximum wage for players. What? There used to be one and Jimmy Hill and the PFA got it overturned ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) ok in principal its a good idea...but how do you implement such a wage cap would it be a weekly wage cap or a yearly wage cap say for instance...premier league players get paid say 100k a year,then it filters down respectively??? you can introduce a wage cap,but it wouldnt stop the club paying bonuses to players would it..so if you set a wage in proportion the club could say,ok goal bonus,5k win bonus 4k etc etc.....so in reality they will still live past there means. Yearly cap... Includes all payments to players including bonus... Any payments outside the cap would be against the rules... I am talking about just the football league... Premier league is separate... Different size cap for each league... You could do it... Legality and weak FA would work against it... Although there are ways around the legal stuff, franchise model etc Edited November 30, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunteruk Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Yearly cap... Includes all payments to players including bonus... Any payments outside the cap would be against the rules... I am talking about just the football league... Premier league is separate... Different size cap for each league... You could do it... Legality and weak FA would work against it... Although there are ways around the legal stuff, franchise model etc so what would you realistically set the wage to??? a basic salary then bonuses added as and when,performance related pay... championship players to get...60k a year league 1 40k league 2 30k like that ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) so what would you realistically set the wage to??? a basic salary then bonuses added as and when,performance related pay... championship players to get...60k a year league 1 40k league 2 30k like that ???? I do not have enough of a understanding of the average amounts being spent in the league and what would amounts would make sense. But some sort of tiered approach would of course be the way to do it considering the higher attendances / TV money and such like. Its workable... Other sports do it... Just need a will to do it... How about this for a complete change... Franchise it totally... All attendance money / tv money etc goes into one big pot and it split between all the teams in that league. Total level playing field... There are lots of ways you could change and protect lower league football. Will never happened though. Edited November 30, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Only a few years ago a system was trialled whereby clubs could only spend a proportion of thei rincome on players' wages. Wehn the opportunity came to formally bring that into League rules, the clubs voted against. Mind you, a system based on a proportion of income would surely just cement the gap between large and small clubs. I'm not sure an individual wage cap is desirable, or entirely workable. It would certainly need to be set much higher than some of the figures suggested in this thread. Maybe something similar to the proportional overall wage budget cap that was tried, but that allows the individual contributions of wealthy owners to count as club income. That way, smaller clubs can still make progress if they have a wealthy backer, but all clubs are restricted from the kind of overspending described in the first post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunteruk Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I do not have enough of a understanding of the average amounts being spent in the league and what would amounts would make sense. But some sort of tiered approach would of course be the way to do it considering the higher attendances / TV money and such like. the only thing i can base it on really is say....sean greegan....what does he get 3k a week....52 weeks is 156k a year..... i cant honestly see anydody going for wage capping on those figures....asking say seany boy to accept a wage of 35k a year..surely the players would just laff at you...and walk away,leaving you with a team of reserves and first year scholors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 the only thing i can base it on really is say....sean greegan....what does he get 3k a week....52 weeks is 156k a year..... i cant honestly see anydody going for wage capping on those figures....asking say seany boy to accept a wage of 35k a year..surely the players would just laff at you...and walk away,leaving you with a team of reserves and first year scholors Walk away... and go where ? The idea of the cap is it applies to the whole league... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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