oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 Unlike New Labour, who wooed the working classes with their empty promises, then locked them in a cellar for thirteen years and raped them nightly. What anti working class policies do you think New Labour put through ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 (edited) What anti working class policies do you think New Labour put through ? They spent around £175 billion that they didn't have this year on programs that people on lower incomes will have have to pay for in the future, as will higher earners. They have also created hundreds of thousands of jobs (many probably classed as middle rather than working, but not all) that are going to be made redundant, whoever wins. They have burdened working class families with a mountain of debt that is unlikely to ever be cleared in my lifetime. Oh, and the schools still turn out kids with great results who can't add up or read to the required standard, and is youth crime sorted? Get your head out of the class argument. Brown acted the big man with his huge spending increases. Now he has been found to have his pants round his ankles. We've all had a mate who spends big and doubles his salary every time you see him. See that bloke? You want him in charge of the country for another 5 years. Edited April 28, 2010 by leeslover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 What anti working class policies do you think New Labour put through ? Difficult to decipher what the policies were most of the time, but their results are clear enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 They spent around £175 billion that they didn't have this year on programs that people on lower incomes will have have to pay for in the future Rubbish... People of all classes will pay for any debt repayment... as will higher earners. There we go... They have also created hundreds of thousands of jobs (many probably classed as middle rather than working, but not all) that are going to be made redundant, whoever wins. Many are no doubt middle class... I am almost certain the vast majority are working class. They have burdened working class families with a mountain of debt that is unlikely to ever be cleared in my lifetime. Repeat of your first point... Look at the historical debt levels in the country... Debt has been around long before Labour took office in 1997. Oh, and the schools still turn out kids with great results who can't add up or read to the required standard, and is youth crime sorted? So you are suggesting the ones who are leaving with good grades can't add up ? Bollocks... Youth crime ? Show me a party who can get rid of crime and I will show you a bull:censored:ter... Almost every type of crime has fallen under labour bar a couple... Get your head out of the class argument. I didn't start this class argument Garcon did Brown acted the big man with his huge spending increases. Now he has been found to have his pants round his ankles. We've all had a mate who spends big and doubles his salary every time you see him. See that bloke? You want him in charge of the country for another 5 years. Brown reversed and then improved unpon the disaster the Tory :censored: created pre 97... Good on them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 Difficult to decipher what the policies were most of the time, but their results are clear enough. I expect much better from a man of your abilities You said Labour has beaten up the working man but you can't explain how... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 (edited) What Labour has done for the working class of the top of my head Tax Credits Child Trust Fund Maintaining Child Benefit SureStart Investment in state schools Investment in the NHS Means tested the tuition fees / grants Help with the cost of nursery fees MINIMUM WAGE!!!! Attack on the rich 50% tax band Closing of tax loop holes like BN66 as an example This idea that Labour has attacked the working is total bollox... I do have two criticism under Labour regarding the working (yes I will do your jobs for you both ).... NMW should be higher and the increases in National Minimum Wage where under hand Edited April 28, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 Created such a catastrophic hole in the country's finances that any working class man who is mid 40s or under will have to work into his 70s to earn a decent living pension. Created, then pissed about with, then scrapped the 10% income tax bracket. Increased VAT. Spent countless billions on an illegal war in Iraq, and then knowingly sent working class men and women to their deaths by failing to properly equip them in Afghanistan. Wasted billions on trebling the size of Whitehall. Failed to control immigration. Wasted billions more on creating an NHS so beaurocratic there are 5 times as many administrators as nurses. Micro managed schools to the extent that children are now simply coached to pass an ever expanding series of tests, rather than being educated. Wasted billions on trying to get an ID Card scheme off the ground that nobody wants, and wasted billions more on trying to integrate IT systems that can't be integrated, all to try and drive the tentacles of government surveillance ever deeper into our lives. Overseen an actual reduction in social mobility, meaning it is now more difficult than ever for people from poor, working class backgrounds to break into the top professions. Promised to eradicate child poverty and failed spectacularly, in fact overseen a widening gap between rich and poor. Created a world of political spin so cynical, that treats the ordinary person with such complete contempt, that it makes the Tories look honest. That'll do for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 Created such a catastrophic hole in the country's finances that any working class man who is mid 40s or under will have to work into his 70s to earn a decent living pension. Created, then pissed about with, then scrapped the 10% income tax bracket. Increased VAT. Spent countless billions on an illegal war in Iraq, and then knowingly sent working class men and women to their deaths by failing to properly equip them in Afghanistan. Wasted billions on trebling the size of Whitehall. Failed to control immigration. Wasted billions more on creating an NHS so beaurocratic there are 5 times as many administrators as nurses. Micro managed schools to the extent that children are now simply coached to pass an ever expanding series of tests, rather than being educated. Wasted billions on trying to get an ID Card scheme off the ground that nobody wants, and wasted billions more on trying to integrate IT systems that can't be integrated, all to try and drive the tentacles of government surveillance ever deeper into our lives. Overseen an actual reduction in social mobility, meaning it is now more difficult than ever for people from poor, working class backgrounds to break into the top professions. Promised to eradicate child poverty and failed spectacularly, in fact overseen a widening gap between rich and poor. Created a world of political spin so cynical, that treats the ordinary person with such complete contempt, that it makes the Tories look honest. That'll do for now. Thats just a lot of ranting with little evidence or grounding in reality when you try to relate it to the working class Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 It's got more grounding in reality than any of New Labour's four election manifestos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 It's got more grounding in reality than any of New Labour's four election manifestos. All of my things above where in election manifestos Who you voting for ? Decided yet ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 Child tax credits and child benefit are a :censored:ing pittance. The trust fund vouchers are pretty bloody tokenistic too. That five hundred pounds will probably cover a tenth of a year's university tuition fees by the time it's withdrawn, if that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 All of my things above where in election manifestos Who you voting for ? Decided yet ? Posted my vote this morning. It was a tricky decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 Posted my vote this morning. It was a tricky decision. Spill the beans.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 (edited) Child tax credits and child benefit are a :censored:ing pittance. The trust fund vouchers are pretty bloody tokenistic too. That five hundred pounds will probably cover a tenth of a year's university tuition fees by the time it's withdrawn, if that. Bollox are they a pittance... http://www.babyworld.co.uk/information/mon...s/default_2.asp Child Benefit is a £1000 a year for one kid!! So you are saying £8390+ or so for the worse of families and £1050 minimum or so for the richer families is a pittance And its a dam sight more than any tory government will give us. Trust fund vouchers are a fantastic tool for so many reasons. Its a free gift from the government for your child to use for anything they want. Again, a dam sight more than any tory government will give us. Edited April 28, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 I thought it'd be fairly obvious given what I've posted, but if you insist. I voted Lib Dem (Tatton constituency). No local elections where I live this year. There's no chance my candidate will unseat George Osborne (more's the pity), but my vote adds as much as anyone else's to the national share of the vote, and hopefully I'll be doing my bit to help consign the Labour candidate into a very distant 3rd place (Labour came 2nd by 700 votes last time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 (edited) By the way, for others with a postal vote - you should have your papers by now, make sure you cast that vote and get it posted back as soon as you can! And a special note for those who live in Oldham East and Saddleworth - the word on the doorstep suggests it's very, very close between Elwyn Watkins (Lib Dem) and Phil Woolas (Labour), with the Tory along way behind. If you want Woolas out you know what to do! (And - even setting party politics aside - I can't for a moment understand why anyone would want to keep the dirty, lying, weasel-faced little sh*t...) (P.S. If you're still unsure, he's a United fan... ) Edited April 28, 2010 by garcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 By the way, for others with a postal vote - you should have your papers by now, make sure you cast that vote and get it posted back as soon as you can! +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 Bollox are they a pittance... http://www.babyworld.co.uk/information/mon...s/default_2.asp Child Benefit is a £1000 a year for one kid!! So you are saying £8390+ or so for the worse of families and £1050 minimum or so for the richer families is a pittance And its a dam sight more than any tory government will give us. Trust fund vouchers are a fantastic tool for so many reasons. Its a free gift from the government for your child to use for anything they want. Again, a dam sight more than any tory government will give us. Child benefit is around £800 a year for the first kid and £500-odd for subsequent kids. For a family with a joint income of £30,000, with two kids (one under one) tax credits are just over £1,000. That's :censored: all in my book. And any mention of the Tories is irrelevant because I won't vote for them as long as there's as hole in my arse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 (edited) Child benefit is around £800 a year for the first kid and £500-odd for subsequent kids. Wrong... Child benefit Child One is £20.30 a week... £20.30 x 52 = £1055.60 a year Child Two is £13.40 a week... £13.40 x 52 = £696.80 a year http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/childbenefit/paymen...nts/rates.htm#1 For a family with a joint income of £30,000, with two kids (one under one) tax credits are just over £1,000. That's :censored: all in my book. Your on £30,000 a year... Why the hell do you need more help So on £30,000 a year you would get about £2150 for one child and £2846 for two children.... And thats not good enough ? What do you want ? Thats a 10% or so boost to your take home pay... Edited April 28, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 What Labour has done for the working class of the top of my head Tax Credits Child Trust Fund Maintaining Child Benefit SureStart Investment in state schools Investment in the NHS Means tested the tuition fees / grants Help with the cost of nursery fees MINIMUM WAGE!!!! Attack on the rich 50% tax band Closing of tax loop holes like BN66 as an example This idea that Labour has attacked the working is total bollox... I do have two criticism under Labour regarding the working (yes I will do your jobs for you both ).... NMW should be higher and the increases in National Minimum Wage where under hand I'm fairly certain the Tories (pre 97) had some form of benefit for parents (I remember my Mum collecting something before then). Means tested tuition fees? What were the tuition fees under Major's Tories- £0.00, do you know what the level for paying tuition fees is set at? £20k (or at least it was in 2002 it might be different now)- so if your Mum and Dad are on minimum wage you pay tuition fees. How does this help the working class? Investment in the NHS- I'll give you that one if you said INCREASED investment (last time I checked the Tories kept putting money into the NHS), the same for state schools. Minimum wage has helped the lower social classes but the cynic in me suggests that it has also helped raise the amount of tax the government receives- since if you work 48 hours a week on minimum wage for an entire year you still pay tax, that doesn't seem quite right to me. If you look at the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, how many of the killed and wounded (who sometimes the NHS struggle to look after) were from the lower social classes (working, and lower-middle). I would wager its at least 75% of them. I know this is going to sound stereotypical but if a boy leaves school at 16 with very few qualifications and most of the GCSE's he gets are less than Cs where does he end up? One of the most popular choices is the armed services as they pay quite well, you get the glory and often you get other skills. A Labour government sent our troops to war twice, not to protect our soil, but to go after Osama and WMDs and the second time they did it they did it on very flimsy evidence (possibly lies). However, a big reason why Gordon Brown is currently our unelected PM is because Cameron and Howard voted for the war in Iraq too. Labour has done some good for all classes in 13 years- I would expect it to that was its job, some of it has helped the lower social classes more than the higher ones. However, its getting to the point where some of the bad things its done in that time are affecting the country more than the better things (or some of the things it did improve have gotten worse again)- hence why they are coming 3rd in some polls. One of the things that got Labour elected in 97 was cleaning up politics (or anti-sleaze if you will) do you honestly believe politics is cleaner now that it was back then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 Rubbish... People of all classes will pay for any debt repayment... There we go... Many are no doubt middle class... I am almost certain the vast majority are working class. Repeat of your first point... Look at the historical debt levels in the country... Debt has been around long before Labour took office in 1997. So you are suggesting the ones who are leaving with good grades can't add up ? Bollocks... Youth crime ? Show me a party who can get rid of crime and I will show you a bull:censored:ter... Almost every type of crime has fallen under labour bar a couple... I didn't start this class argument Garcon did Brown reversed and then improved unpon the disaster the Tory :censored: created pre 97... Good on them... You asked me how Brown's policies were anti-working class. I told you. You replied by pointing out that his policies also shaft the middle classes as much as they shaft the working class. This does not prove your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 (edited) I'm fairly certain the Tories (pre 97) had some form of benefit for parents (I remember my Mum collecting something before then). Yes and now they want to scrap it... Means tested tuition fees? What were the tuition fees under Major's Tories- £0.00, do you know what the level for paying tuition fees is set at? £20k (or at least it was in 2002 it might be different now)- so if your Mum and Dad are on minimum wage you pay tuition fees. How does this help the working class? You might pay some (as I did) but not all... aka means tested... I think its fair to ask for some amount of contribution altough I would total support scrapping them but then Uni needs funding by some other method, aka the tax payer. Investment in the NHS- I'll give you that one if you said INCREASED investment (last time I checked the Tories kept putting money into the NHS), the same for state schools. Tory "investment" (trending water /living off feck all) £38 billion Labou investment now at £138 billion Minimum wage has helped the lower social classes but the cynic in me suggests that it has also helped raise the amount of tax the government receives- since if you work 48 hours a week on minimum wage for an entire year you still pay tax, that doesn't seem quite right to me. Yes NMW has helped and paying tax is a fact of life... Although I do support the 10k tax band proposed by the Libs... but that means you need revenue from somewhere else... If you look at the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, how many of the killed and wounded (who sometimes the NHS struggle to look after) were from the lower social classes (working, and lower-middle). I would wager its at least 75% of them. I know this is going to sound stereotypical but if a boy leaves school at 16 with very few qualifications and most of the GCSE's he gets are less than Cs where does he end up? One of the most popular choices is the armed services as they pay quite well, you get the glory and often you get other skills. A Labour government sent our troops to war twice, not to protect our soil, but to go after Osama and WMDs and the second time they did it they did it on very flimsy evidence (possibly lies). However, a big reason why Gordon Brown is currently our unelected PM is because Cameron and Howard voted for the war in Iraq too. Age old issue that would be the same for almost every party...next... Labour has done some good for all classes in 13 years- I would expect it to that was its job, some of it has helped the lower social classes more than the higher ones. However, its getting to the point where some of the bad things its done in that time are affecting the country more than the better things (or some of the things it did improve have gotten worse again)- hence why they are coming 3rd in some polls. One of the things that got Labour elected in 97 was cleaning up politics (or anti-sleaze if you will) do you honestly believe politics is cleaner now that it was back then? I think the majority of the working class and middle class have had it good for 13 years.. We face a couple of hard years... Lets nuckle down, not let the Torys unwrap all the good work and move on. The prospect of a Labour / Lib coalition sounds good to me given what it might result in. Edited April 29, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 You asked me how Brown's policies were anti-working class. I told you. You replied by pointing out that his policies also shaft the middle classes as much as they shaft the working class. This does not prove your point. So I gave clear examples and you gave half truths and rubbish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 Wrong... Child benefit Child One is £20.30 a week... £20.30 x 52 = £1055.60 a year Child Two is £13.40 a week... £13.40 x 52 = £696.80 a year http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/childbenefit/paymen...nts/rates.htm#1 Your on £30,000 a year... Why the hell do you need more help So on £30,000 a year you would get about £2150 for one child and £2846 for two children.... And thats not good enough ? What do you want ? Thats a 10% or so boost to your take home pay... You're right, I was looking at old figures for child benefit but, even with the increase I think the value of that benefit has been eroded over the years. And it was introduced in the seventies so this government can hardly take full credit for it's existence. That's a joint income of £30k, i.e. each parent earning £15k average. That's not much at all with two young kids, especially when you factor in childcare. And the fact that that £1,000 us the only benefit that a family earning ten times, or even one hundred times, as much don't get couldn't be more Tory if you messed up its hair, stuck a blue tie on it and sent it off to Eton, claiming its fees on expenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 I think child benefit should be scrapped. If you can't afford kids in the first place, don't have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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