General Election

[oafc0000]

Guardian/ICM Poll...

 

Tory leader on 35%, Brown on 29% and Clegg 27%

[oafc0000]

A ComRes poll suggests David Cameron did best, with 35% of respondents saying so, with Nick Clegg on 33% and Gordon Brown on 26%.

[garcon]

I know it can be pretty subjective when you're not a floating voter, but I thought Brown was dreadful tonight - again, but more so.

 

His scare tactics against both other opponents were uncovered as the lies they are, and "look at my record" isn't the best fallback position when his record is to have plunged us into the worst economic crisis in generations.

 

He's desperate, washed up and just about spent. Absolutely nothing left to offer.

 

 

It's brought it home to me that any result on Thursday that keeps Labour (and in particular Gordon Brown) in power in any form whatsoever will be an utter disaster for the country. They've had their 13 years and pissed it up the wall.

 

I hope and pray the final week of the campaign will see Labour's slump of the last two days continue, as those who'll be voting on Thursday finally realise the choice in front of them.

[oafc0000]

His scare tactics

 

A tory government is a scary prospect though...

[garcon]

A tory government is a scary prospect though...

I agree, as much because of what we still don't know as what we do.

 

But I really think it's less scary than letting Brown back in.

[oafc0000]

I agree, as much because of what we still don't know as what we do.

 

But I really think it's less scary than letting Brown back in.

 

I suppose that depends on how well off you are... I simple will not accept the working class is worse off under Brown than Cameron... The lower middle class are probably better off under Brown... Upper Middle probably not...

 

EDIT: ooppss made mistake

Edited April 29, 2010 by oafc0000

[King_blue]

I know it can be pretty subjective when you're not a floating voter, but I thought Brown was dreadful tonight - again, but more so.

 

His scare tactics against both other opponents were uncovered as the lies they are, and "look at my record" isn't the best fallback position when his record is to have plunged us into the worst economic crisis in generations.

 

He's desperate, washed up and just about spent. Absolutely nothing left to offer.

 

 

It's brought it home to me that any result on Thursday that keeps Labour (and in particular Gordon Brown) in power in any form whatsoever will be an utter disaster for the country. They've had their 13 years and pissed it up the wall.

 

I hope and pray the final week of the campaign will see Labour's slump of the last two days continue, as those who'll be voting on Thursday finally realise the choice in front of them.

Rubbish, he was the only one who answered the questions with in-depth detail on how to combat the problems which society posed nowadays. David Cameron will ruin this country if he is elected; he has no answers to the people because he knows it won't benefit the ordinary working men and women of our Country.

[oafc0000]

 

We understand poor people

 

The normal mans dream team ?

 

Bollocks

Edited April 29, 2010 by oafc0000

[garcon]

I'm a single, above average earner with no kids - I'm worse off under everyone!

 

Actually - given I don't get any family/marriage/kids allowances and such - I would probably be worst off under Labour due to the 1% NI increase. I'd still be hit by that under the Tories because I'm over the threshhold below which they'll scrap it. So actually I'd probably be best off under the Lib Dems with their income tax proposals!

 

(Never saw that coming - I'm not sure anyone votes Lib Dem with their pocket... )

[garcon]

The occasionally entertaining side-show of the tv debates is now over, save the crowing in tomorrow's press.

 

On to the serious work of winning votes in the one poll that matters now.

 

Personally, I'll be spending every waking minute of Saturday to Wednesday trying to ensure that Phil Woolas becomes a client of JobCentre Plus on Friday.

[rudemedic]

We understand poor people

 

The normal mans dream team ?

 

Bollocks

For Balance:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Darling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Harman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_clegg

 

Darling is related to a knight who was a Tory MP and was privately educated. Harriet Harman is the daughter of a Harley street doctor (note not NHS) and went to St. Paul's (the sister school to where Osborne went), her aunt is a Countess and she has cousins who are Ladies. Nick Clegg went to Westminster (posh public school where tuition fees are now £20k a year). Please stop bringing class into this "debate"- yes Brown is middle class (although being the son of a church minister he is towards the upper end of middle class) but loads of politicans from all sorts of parties are posh. This includes the previous Prime Minister who went to a school I'm very familar with (Durham Chorister's) for a time. I presume you didn't vote for the state educated John Major over the public school educated Tony Blair.

[oafc0000]

Please stop bringing class into this "debate"

 

No I won't... You can't balance it... It was so heavily on the side of the Torys... Privilege upbringings, trying to get in power to make the world a "fairer" place for their mates at our expense. People get suckered in thinking "we are all in it together". Yes I am sure we are David, we all have £40 million trust funds and I am sure the global crises will see you wondering where the next pay check comes from

 

Its funny how they have duped you into thinking this is not about class. Its always has been and always will be about class.

Edited April 30, 2010 by oafc0000

[garcon]

And if there's anything that proves that Labour have failed to improve social mobility in 13 years, and would rather make desperate excuses about class borders, there you have it.

 

It's all about class folks. If you're working class, then tug your forelock, vote Labour, forget individual aspiration and opportunity and accept your lot, b*tching about those above you but always, always staying in your place.

 

Is it any wonder our country has stagnated? That a whole underclass of people don't even try any more?

Edited April 30, 2010 by garcon

[oafc0000]

And if there's anything that proves that Labour have failed to improve social mobility in 13 years, and would rather make desperate excuses about class borders, there you have it.

 

It's all about class folks. If you're working class, then tug your forelock, vote Labour, forget individual aspiration and opportunity and accept your lot, b*tching about those above you but always, always staying in your place.

 

Is it any wonder our country has stagnated? That a whole underclass of people don't even try any more.

 

What does social mobility mean ? Turning working class people into middle class people ? Its flawed concept really... You can only make so many people middle class. The aim should be to make being working class better and not aim at moving people up a ladder that can't take endless amounts of people. What I am certain about is that it is better being a working class person under Labour than it is under the Torys.

 

I was born into a working class family and today I am defo in the middle class bracket. I doubt I am the only one as well... So social mobility is still happening... How many more kids are going to University now from working class backgrounds ? etc..

 

Lets be frank... Its a Tory or Labour government coming out of all this maybe with a sprinkle of Liberal input... If people think they will be better under the Torys then I wish them good luck and but not to come back crying in four years when everything melts...

Edited April 30, 2010 by oafc0000

[oafc0000]

That a whole underclass of people don't even try any more?

 

That type never did try... People talk like the underclass are something new and they also talk like its a growing problem when in reality its been a pretty stable problem for a long time under Tory and Labour governments.

 

Fact is, if you offer welfare there will be people who abuse it.

 

I remember Bread TV series about bloody scousers nicking benefits they don't deserve 1986 to 1991

Edited April 30, 2010 by oafc0000

[Matt]

I presume you didn't vote for the state educated John Major over the public school educated Tony Blair.

 

This debate is turning into a right old Leninist-Marxist brawl! "The proletariat or workers includes anyone who earns their livelihood by selling their labour power and being paid a wage or salary for their labour time. They have little choice but to work for capital, since they typically have no independent way to survive. The bourgeoisie include anyone who gets their income not from labour as much as from the surplus value they appropriate from the workers who create wealth. The income of the capitalists, therefore, is based on their exploitation of the proletariat."

 

What do I know, I'm a "class traitor" in Marxist terms.

[oafc0000]

I presume you didn't vote for the state educated John Major over the public school educated Tony Blair.

 

I didn't have the vote... I was only 17

 

Tony Blair was from a middle class background... and I have a lot of respect for John Major really... but no I would of defo backed Blair...

 

Would I back a cabinet full of people with millionaire daddies who sent them all to eton and have massive trust funds... Well event he thickest amongst can see the difference between them and the Labour / Lib lot I would hope...

Edited April 30, 2010 by oafc0000

[jimsleftfoot]

But in the latest University budget round, owing to the financial mess the government have helped create, they have slashed University budgets but retained the number of undergraduate positions they must offer. That leads to one very clear scenario: universities increase the proportion of (higher fee paying) foreign students in their intake, thus reducing the number of places available to British students, directly flying in the face of Labour claims that they are increasing the availability of university places for British students.

 

Yes the government has had to cut due to the mess it has got itself in, because of spending on things like education.... So at least it has actually spent the money in the first place. Also it is still higher than the the 2008/09 grant which was just under £6 billion.

 

In regards to the places, not quite correct. The government gives an amount of money for each student and they have capped the numbers of UK students that can be funded. The main reason for this is due to the rise in UK student applications rather than them actually cutting the funding (hence the grant is still better that 2 years ago). In that sense, the Labour government has been a victim of its own success in trying to get more people in to Unis.

 

[jimsleftfoot]

Any benefits of a minimum wage are a simplistic fantasy - increased productivity increases wages, not government legislation.

 

I don't agree with that, slaves can be very productive and I don't see their wages go up.

[opinions4u]

the Labour government has been a victim of its own success in trying to get more people in to Unis.

I've never understood why it is a good idea to pile people in to universities, a good third of which are educationally sub-standard, then shove them out of the door 4 years later to get a job that never needed a degree in the first place.

[jimsleftfoot]

For Balance:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Darling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Harman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_clegg

 

Darling is related to a knight who was a Tory MP and was privately educated. Harriet Harman is the daughter of a Harley street doctor (note not NHS) and went to St. Paul's (the sister school to where Osborne went), her aunt is a Countess and she has cousins who are Ladies. Nick Clegg went to Westminster (posh public school where tuition fees are now £20k a year). Please stop bringing class into this "debate"- yes Brown is middle class (although being the son of a church minister he is towards the upper end of middle class) but loads of politicans from all sorts of parties are posh. This includes the previous Prime Minister who went to a school I'm very familar with (Durham Chorister's) for a time. I presume you didn't vote for the state educated John Major over the public school educated Tony Blair.

 

Tony's Dad Leo was the illegitimate son of travelling entertainers and was adopted by a working class family. When he left school he worked as a copy boy on the Communist Party newspaper the Daily Worker. He studied for a degree in law whilst working as a junior tax inspector.

 

Though there is a spanner - he was later active in the DUM DUM DUM Tory party where he met a fair princess called Mrs Major. They had an illegitimate child called John......

 

(Everything up to and including Leo being active in the tory party is true, the Mrs Major bit isn't).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Blair_(senior)

Edited April 30, 2010 by jimsleftfoot

[garcon]

I remember Bread TV series about bloody scousers nicking benefits they don't deserve 1986 to 1991

You do realise that was a sitcom rather than a documentary don't you?

 

 

Actually, I suppose social mobility is one of those buzzword terms that people can manipulate to mean more or less what they want.

 

What I mean is that after 13 years of labour, it is more difficult for young people from the poorest backgrounds to break into the professions such as medicine, law and accountancy.

 

As for the "middle class", I'd love to see a definition of what that is. When I was at school I was taught that the middle class were independently wealthy and therefore didn't have to work for a living, but weren't landed gentry. By that definition, you or I - even if we earn six figures a year - are working class.

 

I think the middle class as people tend to think of them now were possibly created by Thatcher and the media in the early 80s, and were buttered up by New labour as soon as Bliar realised he only needed to swing them from voting Tory to win the election. That's the precise point at which Labour abandoned their traditional (proper) working class voters ... who are so downtrodden and ignorant they are still struggling to realise.

[oafc0000]

You do realise that was a sitcom rather than a documentary don't you?

 

Just got lucky when they but together scoursers and benefit cheats as an idea I suppose

 

Actually, I suppose social mobility is one of those buzzword terms that people can manipulate to mean more or less what they want.

 

Very much so... All the parties do it and its a lot of hot air really isn't it when you think about it...

 

What I mean is that after 13 years of labour, it is more difficult for young people from the poorest backgrounds to break into the professions such as medicine, law and accountancy.

 

Not sure if that is true... How can it get more difficult from government policy that includes sending 50% of kids to University. How do you think it has been more difficult ?

 

As for the "middle class", I'd love to see a definition of what that is. When I was at school I was taught that the middle class were independently wealthy and therefore didn't have to work for a living, but weren't landed gentry. By that definition, you or I - even if we earn six figures a year - are working class.

 

I think the middle class as people tend to think of them now were possibly created by Thatcher and the media in the early 80s, and were buttered up by New labour as soon as Bliar realised he only needed to swing them from voting Tory to win the election. That's the precise point at which Labour abandoned their traditional (proper) working class voters ... who are so downtrodden and ignorant they are still struggling to realise.

 

In my eyes the traditional view is...

 

the Upper Class

Often people with inherited wealth. Includes some of the oldest families, with many of them being titled aristocrats.

 

the Middle Class

The majority of the population of Britain. They include industrialists, professionals, business people and shop owners.

 

Lower or Working Class

People who are agricultural, mine and factory workers. You could expand this to include modern jobs such as supermarkets and working in a retail shop / cafe.

 

Its probably still true today yet I think you can break it down into probably six / seven categories. But people do not like to talk about class much any more, although its still a reality! You also have to take into account factors such as housing and education. By default if you are university educated you used to be classed as middle class. Probably does not apply now.

Edited April 30, 2010 by oafc0000

[beag_teeets]

I know it can be pretty subjective when you're not a floating voter, but I thought Brown was dreadful tonight - again, but more so.

 

His scare tactics against both other opponents were uncovered as the lies they are, and "look at my record" isn't the best fallback position when his record is to have plunged us into the worst economic crisis in generations.

 

He's desperate, washed up and just about spent. Absolutely nothing left to offer.

 

 

It's brought it home to me that any result on Thursday that keeps Labour (and in particular Gordon Brown) in power in any form whatsoever will be an utter disaster for the country. They've had their 13 years and pissed it up the wall.

 

I hope and pray the final week of the campaign will see Labour's slump of the last two days continue, as those who'll be voting on Thursday finally realise the choice in front of them.

 

 

Wah wah wah.

 

Was poor ickle Nicky being bullied, could Dave not cope with a one eyed scotch man? God help us if either of them win and fanatical islam comes and has a go.

[garcon]

 

That gets my award for random post of the thread.