Matt Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 And to use the A/H-bomb argument smacks of desperation. It does, that argument is confusing association with causation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) Horse :censored:. Your (used loosely, I clearly don't know you well enough to comment on you specifically) morals are based on a book from 2000 years ago about a deity which told you to go out and kill anyone who was a non-believer. To this day people kill in the name of their god. To prove theirs is the one and only god. People don't kill to prove that X=Y! Science has, can and will kill people. That's a terrible side effect of the human condition. People will abuse power and ability to harm others. But more people (to an extent that is unimaginable) have died in the defence of the dogmatic beliefs than have ever been killed by science. And to use the A/H-bomb argument smacks of desperation. The A/H bomb is one of many very good examples to prove what you was saying is horse :censored:. Science offers no moral compass... It only offers understanding of what you can do... It never questions if you should do something... I partly base my morals on a book written 2000 years ago... I think the human race has move on some what during those 2000 years.... Edited May 21, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) My Father is a lapsed Catholic and my Mother - god bless her - is an Atheist. They have guided and continue to guide me without religion, as I will one day do the same to my kids. Read the bible. If you follow it's morals then you're going to kill a lot of people real soon. You are treating me as some sort of extreme Christian... I far more liberal than that... The bible is not perfect... It contradicts itself... It is at end of the day a collection of stories, ideas written from many peoples different prospectives... Edited May 21, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 It does, that argument is confusing association with causation. Yuss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 It does, that argument is confusing association with causation. Have I told you lately that I love you? You do this with so much more grace than I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 :lol: You need moral guidance do you oafc0000? And you think religion is necessary to provide it? 41 posts... From Stockport... Are you even an Oldham fan ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 The A/H bomb is one of many very good examples to prove what you was saying is horse :censored:. I'd argue against that to be honest, it would be a fallacy to conclude that science causes nuclear warfare. There are other variables to be considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 And you think religion is necessary to provide it? It's a mechanism, of course. It just happens to have no place in the modern world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I'd argue against that to be honest, it would be a fallacy to conclude that science causes nuclear warfare. There are other variables to be considered. Like Ackeys idea I am going to run around and kill a :censored: load of people because of religion ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Well this is fast going down of the 100 v 1 I thought it might I am religious... You guys aren't... Live and let live... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Like Ackeys idea I am going to run around and kill a :censored: load of people because of religion ? We'll get onto that in a minute. Do you agree with my previous statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 It does, that argument is confusing association with causation. Indeed. It's confusing "is" with "ought". Science tells us the way things are. It's says nothing about what we should do with that knowledge. Blaming the Nuclear Bomb on science is pretty pathetic. What we do with technology and discovery is up to groups and individuals to work out. Let's not forget that without science we wouldn't be having this conversation. We wouldn't have a roof over our head. We might not even beable to afford food. Science is progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Well this is fast going down of the 100 v 1 I thought it might I am religious... You guys aren't... Live and let live... It's Friday, my boss isn't in, I'm just having a bit of fun. 99 v 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 We'll get onto that in a minute. Do you agree with my previous statement? There are always many factors to everything... Nothing is as black and white as anyone would ever wish... So yes... Of course... What is true is that Science offers no moral compass... Anyway, I haven't the stomach today for a huge kick off over religion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I have to do some errands, but I'll post this up for the purpose of furthering the debate. It's not about ganging up on an individual, it's about reasoning with the arguments in hand. That's what I'm trying to do, and I'm sure you are too oafc0000. See you in a min. Here you are: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-hu...eplace-religion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 You are treating me as some sort of extreme Christian... I far more liberal than that... The bible is not perfect... It contradicts itself... It is at end of the day a collection of stories, ideas written from many peoples different prospectives... Apologies, I have indeed become slightly agitated. That's unfair and I'm not specifically aiming this at you, you're simply the only person on OWTB who is either religious (Chappy must be around somewhere so I will assume it's just because willing to stand up for your beliefs and I can respect that). However, as you say above, the bible and it's many books are thousands of years old and contradict many times over. They tell believers to go out and kill non-believers amongst other things. As you point out, in the non-quoted post, humans and society have moved on from that. So you're taking your guidance, I assume, from religious leaders and groups who base their morals on a book they themselves have acknowledged as being either insufficient or inappropriate. Why does that make your system better than mine? You base your moral judgements on a fictional book or on the guidance of others who do and I base mine on science. Just as you don't follow the law of the bible to the letter I don't follow science blindly. I don't think "should I do that" and then base my decision on efficiency or chemistry. I base it on my own moral compass. I don't need fiction to tell me what's right and wrong and to insinuate that you have moral direction and I don't simply because you're Christian is offensive and comes full circle to the point I made this morning regarding the marginalisation of Atheists by many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Have I told you lately that I love you? You do this with so much more grace than I. Yes. Yes. Many times. However, Ryan does get terribly jealous. And he pines, oh he does so pine! He starts tearing the carpet up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 41 posts... From Stockport... Are you even an Oldham fan ? What the does that have to do with it? Yes I am an Oldham fan. Born and bred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) - Edited May 21, 2010 by PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Swearing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 What the does that have to do with it? Yes I am an Oldham fan. Born and bred. Just its very questionable why 50% of your posts have been based around this sensitive subject matter and... Feel free to keep posting if you are an Oldham fan I just found it strange... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 No, but I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 What the does that have to do with it? Yes I am an Oldham fan. Born and bred. It's called misdirection and is used all the time by magicians to distract you from the real trick, or in this case debate. If it helps anyone I live Didsbury and Zorrro lives in London. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 Just its very questionable why 50% of your posts have been based around this sensitive subject matter and... Feel free to keep posting if you are an Oldham fan I just found it strange... I prefer sensitive subjects to trivial ones. I love football, but its difficult to say anything original about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) Apologies, I have indeed become slightly agitated. That's unfair and I'm not specifically aiming this at you, you're simply the only person on OWTB who is either religious (Chappy must be around somewhere so I will assume it's just because willing to stand up for your beliefs and I can respect that). However, as you say above, the bible and it's many books are thousands of years old and contradict many times over. They tell believers to go out and kill non-believers amongst other things. As you point out, in the non-quoted post, humans and society have moved on from that. So you're taking your guidance, I assume, from religious leaders and groups who base their morals on a book they themselves have acknowledged as being either insufficient or inappropriate. Why does that make your system better than mine? You base your moral judgements on a fictional book or on the guidance of others who do and I base mine on science. Just as you don't follow the law of the bible to the letter I don't follow science blindly. I don't think "should I do that" and then base my decision on efficiency or chemistry. I base it on my own moral compass. I don't need fiction to tell me what's right and wrong and to insinuate that you have moral direction and I don't simply because you're Christian is offensive and comes full circle to the point I made this morning regarding the marginalisation of Atheists by many. Some of your language presumes a lot... It puts a lot of words into peoples mouths... I also never said my system was better. Science offers no moral compass. It cannot be compared to religion. They are two separate things and they are not mutually exclusive. You are clearly a passionate atheists... You have made your mind up. I respect that. Edited May 21, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 Some of your language presumes a lot... It puts a lot of words into peoples mouths... I also never said my system was better. Science offers no moral compass. It cannot be compared to religion. They are two separate things and they are not mutually exclusive. You are clearly a passionate atheists... You have made your mind up. I respect that. Why do you need an externally bestowed moral compass? Why can't you make your own mind up? You only get yours from the bible by cherry picking the verses you agree with anyway. So why can't you admit that you do have your own moral compass? By the way, why does it matter? Why is "it offers a moral compass" an important stance to take when you are asking the question are gods real? The claim of the existance of deities is either acurate or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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