Ackey Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Some of your language presumes a lot... It puts a lot of words into peoples mouths... I also never said my system was better. Science offers no moral compass. It cannot be compared to religion. They are two separate things and they are not mutually exclusive. You are clearly a passionate atheists... You have made your mind up. I respect that. Your implication in an earlier post was that, as a Christian, you have moral compass, as it was in response to my post regarding living my life guided by Science I inferred I was lacking that moral compass. There is an assumption there, but it wasn't a giant leap to make it. As I've said, I have a lot of respect for anyone willing to debate their beliefs, especially when they are alone and several others are on 'the other team' and so I'm sorry if you feel 'got at'. My position remains the same however - there's no evidence to my knowledge that religion can offer a better moral compass than simply being human and compassionate. Again, the foundation of religions - all of the 'main' ones to my knowledge - is based on bloody conflict and a defiant stand that one religion is correct and others are wrong. If that's the foundation you want for a moral compass then fine, it's sure as hell not the one I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Your implication in an earlier post was that, as a Christian, you have moral compass, as it was in response to my post regarding living my life guided by Science I inferred I was lacking that moral compass. There is an assumption there, but it wasn't a giant leap to make it. Again you miss the point... You said you was living by science... I was basically saying science offers no rules on how to live your life. Clearly whatever morals you have come from some other place and not science. As I've said, I have a lot of respect for anyone willing to debate their beliefs, especially when they are alone and several others are on 'the other team' and so I'm sorry if you feel 'got at'. My position remains the same however - there's no evidence to my knowledge that religion can offer a better moral compass than simply being human and compassionate. Again, the foundation of religions - all of the 'main' ones to my knowledge - is based on bloody conflict and a defiant stand that one religion is correct and others are wrong. If that's the foundation you want for a moral compass then fine, it's sure as hell not the one I want. You are welcome to live your life as you choose, within the boundary of law of course :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) Why do you need an externally bestowed moral compass? Why can't you make your own mind up? You only get yours from the bible by cherry picking the verses you agree with anyway. So why can't you admit that you do have your own moral compass? By the way, why does it matter? Why is "it offers a moral compass" an important stance to take when you are asking the question are gods real? The claim of the existance of deities is either acurate or not. You think Christianity offers clear rules that I can just blindly follow You don't understand Christians :P Look at the debate within the church on issues of homosexuality, abortion and such like... While some people think every Christian is homophobic and we all think we have the world sorted, the reality is VERY different... Most these opinions come from a lack of understanding or exposure to only a narrow spectrum of the faith... Edited May 21, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Again you miss the point... You said you was living by science... I was basically saying science offers no rules on how to live your life. Clearly whatever morals you have come from some other place and not science. Despite being vital (and you've still not addressed it) I'll leave out the past - as it confuses the point - do you feel I should live by religious morals? I mean this in a loose sense - I'm not suggesting that you would impose upon me. Because I was raised Atheist to a large extent. I never attended church. I have morals. I don't go out killing or raping (there's that damn past again) people at my will. But I'm not religious. I don't see how people need or want religion to guide their morals when simply being a compassionate person is enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 do you feel I should live by religious morals? I honestly think you should do whatever keeps you happy... Just respect the law... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I don't see how people need or want religion to guide their morals when simply being a compassionate person is enough. Was it being compassionate when people started seeking to offend a lot of people ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 You think Christianity offers clear rules that I can just blindly follow You don't understand Christians :P Look at the debate within the church on issues of homosexuality, abortion and such like... While some people think every Christian is homophobic and we all think we have the world sorted, the reality is VERY different... Most these opinions come from a lack of understanding or exposure to only a narrow spectrum of the faith... No I don't. You did when you claimed that religion offered a moral compass. I actually said "You only get yours from the bible by cherry picking the verses you agree with anyway" I don't think you get your morals from your religion at all. In fact I'd be concerned for you if you did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Was it being compassionate when people started seeking to offend a lot of people ? Touché However we'll not go back down the path of religion being exempt from normal levels of 'offence' again, shall we. Would you be willing to discuss how a moral compass based on Christianity - the foundations of which are filled with bloody conflict, systematic rape and so forth - is one you would encourage people to live by? Of course things have changed over time, but still, a foundation is vital part of any belief system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 Was it being compassionate when people started seeking to offend a lot of people ? That old chesnut again. You never learn do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Touché However we'll not go back down the path of religion being exempt from normal levels of 'offence' again, shall we. Would you be willing to discuss how a moral compass based on Christianity - the foundations of which are filled with bloody conflict, systematic rape and so forth - is one you would encourage people to live by? Of course things have changed over time, but still, a foundation is vital part of any belief system. Have I attempted to encourage you or anyone on this thread to live by Christianity ? We are going nowhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 That old chesnut again. You never learn do you? Just holding that mirror up again... People don't like that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 Just holding that mirror up again... People don't like that... People don't like it when you mischaracterise their position. You have read my constant refutations on this subject and yet you still insist on parrotting this BS about us seeking to cause offence. Sing a new tune, because this one is getting old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 People don't like it when you mischaracterise their position. At least you know what it is like to be a Christian now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 At least you know what it is like to be a Christian now I used to be one. My mother is a vicar. My father worked in the church. I grew out of it. p.s most people know that there are thousands of differents sects Christianity and that you all claim different beliefs. I'm not sure why you are feeling misunderstood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 My there are lots of vicar sons around this place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 My there are lots of vicar sons around this place... Why? Who else is there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Why? Who else is there? Every time during these debates there seems to be a load of people who have parents who where vicars, priests, or in some way heavily involved in the church. Almost always lapsed. Its genuinely interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 Every time during these debates there seems to be a load of people who have parents who where vicars, priests, or in some way heavily involved in the church. Almost always lapsed. Its genuinely interesting. It's probably coincidence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilStarbucksSilkySkills Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 It's called misdirection and is used all the time by magicians to distract you from the real trick, or in this case debate. If it helps anyone I live Didsbury and Zorrro lives in London. I've noticed this in theist debates too. In debate and argument circles its called a red herring. They never can seem to stick to the subject at hand. They like to trick you into arguing a position that bears little relevance to the point being made. e.g. getting you to defending evolution when you are talking about proof for a god Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I've noticed this in theist debates too. In debate and argument circles its called a red herring. They never can seem to stick to the subject at hand. They like to trick you into arguing a position that bears little relevance to the point being made. e.g. getting you to defending evolution when you are talking about proof for a god No one said anything about evolution... Or the proof for a god... What I did point out is how weak your approach is to tackle the attack on the freedom of speech from extremists while being an extremist yourself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Rummy... Been giving your question some thought and the only answer I can come up with is... Prove there is no god and I will stop being religious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Prove there is no god and I will stop being religious... I don't have to. Because you know he doesn't exist. Occam's Razor tells me (and you too) that the simplest solution is arguably the correct one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I don't have to. Because you know he doesn't exist. Occam's Razor tells me (and you too) that the simplest solution is arguably the correct one. So what the answer to world peace then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 So what the answer to world peace then? Nudism... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 So what the answer to world peace then? I wish I knew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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