Oldham East and Saddleworth By-election

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Y'know, Mr Tulsehill, once we get off the party political silliness, there's an awful lot in your last few posts that I can agree with.

 

 

 

You just picked the wrong party is all.

[Zorrro]

Porno doesn't count.

 

They're art pamphlets.

[rudemedic]

...even if you say so yourself.

 

 

 

He's barred from standing for three years.

 

 

 

Did you mean Calder Valley? There are certain geographical boundaries to consider, which I am sure the independent boundary commission did before independently drawing the new boundaries. Just because the boundary changed happened under a Labour Government does not mean that the Labour Government was the executive decision maker. It's like saying that every land sale by the Church Estates Commissioners was Tony Blair's fault.

 

 

 

Ditto. I found that defaulting on student loans was the way forward. They can't demand the mandatory amount or take it from through PAYE - you decide how much you pay. I pay almost nothing and hope to die before I've paid them back.

 

 

 

How do you know how productive you're going to be when you're 18 - or 17 for that matter? The problem is that you have to make a decision about your potential future earnings without the slightest clue about what they will be. That is the unpleasant elitist element of the whole thing. The risk involved is far less if you're from a better-off background, and greater if you're not. There is absolutely no doubt that perfectly able young people from poorer backgrounds will be deterred from going to university, whereas many less able young people from more affluent backgrounds will think nothing of it.

 

One Labour Member - a profoundly humourless Welshman - asked a funny question on that in the House last Wednesday. He said: "The Government's proposals will deter poorer students from going to university, but allow less able students from public schools to do so because of their financial means. Does he agree that Government Members who have not-very-able children in public schools should declare an interest? Will there be time in five hours [of debate] to make all those declarations of interest?"

 

 

 

Agreed. I didn't study English and I've read far more literature than the average English student. There's another reason not to study English: why would you want some dusty old fart of a tutor spoiling your book fun with his or her fancy theories?

 

Taking your points in order, I heard that to get through 4 years of a medical degree (the same as I've finished) costs £250k (bearing in mind a lot of my learning is taught/facilitated by people getting paid a lot more than a university lecturer), that's a lot more than £9000 pa, even accounting for some of the "work" medical students do for free as part of their learning (i.e. the cost of the person who would have to do it otherwise).

 

I know he's been barred for 3 years but if the Con/Lib goes full term he'll be eligible again at the next general election.

 

Yeah sorry I meant Calder Valley (where the prospective Labour candidate stood in May), there may have been some gerrymandering in favour of Labour in Oldham and Dale but it may have been in favour of the others at other times or at other locations. Its one of those things that if Labour have gained the benefit of the independent commission this time around, the Tories/Lib Dems might gain next time around (especially as there will be an element of the next census being used I presume).

 

I think a lot of people have no idea what they want to do at 18, some of my friends from uni had done medicine as a 2nd degree. I wonder what will happen to those sort of people under the new system? The same with PhD. students and some other post-grads. This new system might make it beneficial for a lot of repeat degrees I don't know or it might mean those such people can't do the extra degrees and that would degrade our education system.

 

What that Welsh politican said is definately something that I don't think has been mentioned (or if it has not with that amount of humour) but I wonder how many of Labour's ranks have children in a similar situation? Currently uni degrees are so over subscribed that it can be hard for overseas students to get a look in. These new measures might mean more of them and if they return to a different country they will avoid the graduate tax proportion. Its a new system and with any new system loopholes can appear which will then need shutting.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I was kidding about your relative worth, Doc. If you manage not to sell your soul to private medicine or the pharmaceutical industry, you're alright by me and other generous taxpayers.

[leeslover]

I was kidding about your relative worth, Doc. If you manage not to sell your soul to private medicine or the pharmaceutical industry, you're alright by me and other generous taxpayers.

The Labour Government already sold the General Practitioner industry to the BMA, so the generous taxpayer will be more than generous for a good while to come.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

The Labour Government already sold the General Practitioner industry to the BMA, so the generous taxpayer will be more than generous for a good while to come.

 

Lucky everyone, and good on the taxpayer!

 

Anyway, this isn't about the Doctor or fees or Judas Clegg and Judas "Cable" or Woolas or the fabulous new local Labour candidate or Big Gay Griffin or Libertarian anti-Europeanism. This is about Catman.

 

A press man of my passing acquaintance and who would not make these things up tells me that Woolas had plenty more on Watkins but chose not to deploy it in favour of the much misinterpreted leaflet. Intriguing. Deeply intriguing. What can it mean? Would it be dangerous for us to know? It's almost a shame that no one has anything to gain by playing rough.

[leeslover]

Lucky everyone, and good on the taxpayer!

 

Anyway, this isn't about the Doctor or fees or Judas Clegg and Judas "Cable" or Woolas or the fabulous new local Labour candidate or Big Gay Griffin or Libertarian anti-Europeanism. This is about Catman.

 

A press man of my passing acquaintance and who would not make these things up tells me that Woolas had plenty more on Watkins but chose not to deploy it in favour of the much misinterpreted leaflet. Intriguing. Deeply intriguing. What can it mean? Would it be dangerous for us to know? It's almost a shame that no one has anything to gain by playing rough.

Good to know that you are happy to see a trade union populated mostly by the sons and daughters of the privileged rich who got themselves onto medical degrees, knowing they would have large debts which they could expect to pay off on graduation, milking the NHS to prop up their banker-sized salaries for a 9 - 5 working week at the expense of frontline services. Not exactly lucky everyone, but that's another matter.

 

As you will know, I now am aware of the allegations you are making against Catkins. Given that this whole thing cropped up in the first place because of dirty stinking lies put around by the Labour side, I will entirley withhold any consideration of them until I hear from some relevant authority. It somes like vindictive slander otherwise. Mud sticks, as Woolas must have told his campaign team. Whether anything beyond the race hate business is Plan B or entirely unconnected, it's unfortunately impossible to tell.

 

 

[boboafc]

I don't think that Labour has made a good choice here. Reading some of the Moslem reaction, a Jewish Labour leader and a Jewish candidate selected ahead of two Moslems? Anyone think that's going to play well in a town with a large Moslem electorate?

[Roger Ritchie]

I can't imagine a more natural Tory voter than Saddleworth Man.

 

You'd think so but it is all Labour Lib Dem round there. Probably because the stigma is still there. I've never understood it but when you go through it at election time there are always the:

 

Labour winning here

 

Vote Lib Dem

 

Placards everywhere (you never really see them anywhere other than Saddleworth either, free time?) you hardly see any Tory ones. That might be because the Tories see it beneath them to go out into the garden to hammer them up and the jamboys are too busy being jamboys so they can't send them to do them.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I don't think that Labour has made a good choice here. Reading some of the Moslem reaction, a Jewish Labour leader and a Jewish candidate selected ahead of two Moslems? Anyone think that's going to play well in a town with a large Moslem electorate?

 

Interesting to see how that works out. I don't think international politics is necessarily going to feature in the campaign - it will be about knife-and-fork issues - but tribes are tribes.

[Yard Dog]

But Saddleworth was joined on to Labour Om East long before they included Om West's Alexandra, wasn't it?

 

I can understand the reasoning behind lumping Saddleworth with Om East, but can't understand why part of Hollinwood and F/w get put in with Ashton.

[rudemedic]

it was but done purely to up the labour vote in a 3 way marginal as viewed then.

 

As opposed to that well connected Heywood and Royton area- you might be able to walk it but you almost certainly can't drive it without going into something else.

 

 

[beag_teeets]

I read an interesting article the other day that was talking about which result would make Cameron happy. Obviously he would like the tories to win but this is unlikely, after that he is mainly concerned that the human shields Lib Dems do not come behind the tories. If that was to happen many Lib dem MPs will be quaking in their sandals. It would show that the Lib Dems are bearing the brunt of the heat for this Tory led government (might as well stick on message) and would give massive cause for concern.

 

This could have 2 effects, it could either exacerbate the divisions within the lib dems regarding the "coalition" which were clearly shown during the tuition fees votes and lead to the leadership being marginalised further. Or it could lead to the lobby fodder lib dems clinging tighter to the tories than they currently are and praying that the right wing policies they are enacting have the effects that the boy George promises they will.

 

So pretty much a rock and a hard place.

[beag_teeets]

Another interesting article:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/de...d-end-coalition

 

"Cable also criticised the speed at which the coalition was attempting change, saying: "There is a kind of Maoist revolution happening in a lot of areas like the health service, local government, reform, all this kind of stuff, which is in danger of getting out of control. We are trying to do too many things, actually," he said.

 

"Some of them are Lib Dem inspired, but a lot of it is Tory inspired. The problem is not that they are Tory-inspired, but that they haven't thought them through. We should be putting a brake on it."

 

 

 

I'm so glad I didn't agree with Nick. I'm so glad that I didn't help to get these ill-thought out plans out into the light of day.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Another interesting article:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/de...d-end-coalition

 

"Cable also criticised the speed at which the coalition was attempting change, saying: "There is a kind of Maoist revolution happening in a lot of areas like the health service, local government, reform, all this kind of stuff, which is in danger of getting out of control. We are trying to do too many things, actually," he said.

 

"Some of them are Lib Dem inspired, but a lot of it is Tory inspired. The problem is not that they are Tory-inspired, but that they haven't thought them through. We should be putting a brake on it."

 

 

 

I'm so glad I didn't agree with Nick. I'm so glad that I didn't help to get these ill-thought out plans out into the light of day.

 

The Cable Guy is a shambles - the coalition is a shambles. The sooner it's over the better. Get them out before it's too late.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

...and the alternative is alternatives are?

 

Alternative No. 1: A Labour Government led by the Mighty Red Ed Miliband. Obviously.

 

Alternative No. 2: A Conservative Government led by Camoron and Boy George.

 

I may just be having a moment, but I think I might prefer No. 2 to the coalition and Liberals in the Government. I'll check my pulse to see how I feel about that, but it's a close-run thing.

[opinions4u]

I think Cable is going to have to fall on his sword.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I think Cable is going to have to fall on his sword.

 

Uh-oh. Questions in the House...

 

Hilary Benn: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Have you had any indication that the Business Secretary intends to come to the Chamber this afternoon to make a statement on his policy on News Corporation’s bid to take full control of BSkyB? As you may be aware, it is reported today that the Secretary of State has said that he has

“declared war on Mr Murdoch and I think we are going to win”.

 

It can't be long now.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

In a way. But he is the Secretary of State with responsibility for media ownership and such, and he really ought not to be offering his views to a couple of yummy mummies in his constituency office.

 

He also ought not to have a view on the ownership of BSkyB until he reads the Ofcom report, which he commissioned. I'm no Murdoch fan, but that's way out of line and a bit of an offence to the rule of law, which is pretty typical of your liberals.

 

They're not liberal and they're not democratic, but they're called the Liberal Democrats.

 

 

[opinions4u]

In a way. But he is the Secretary of State with responsibility for media ownership and such, and he really ought not to be offering his views to a couple of yummy mummies in his constituency office.

 

He also ought not to have a view on the ownership of BSkyB until he reads the Ofcom report, which he commissioned. I'm no Murdoch fan, but that's way out of line and a bit of an offence to the rule of law, which is pretty typical of your liberals.

 

They're not liberal and they're not democratic, but they're called the Liberal Democrats.

Bloody hell, I agree.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Surely he can have a view an opinion before the report is published.

 

 

Private views. That's all it was. It has compromised his postition as the "ultimate arbiter", there's no doubt about that although his political postition per se should not be brought into question, as fumed in my last posting. its ridiculous pandering to the general publics' need for political blood.

 

I see what you mean about the media-public-politician choreography, but in this case, for once, the journalists are asking a genuine question about the rule of law - about what a Secretary of State is and is not entitled to think or say. If he's incapable of making a decision after blowing his impartiality, he can't be the Secretary of State.

 

He hasn't got any private views on BSkyB, unless it's with the wife or an extremely good friend who won't blab or another politico whom he can trust. He certainly doesn't have private views with a couple of birds in his constituency office. If he were asked about BSkyB in the House of Commons, he would have had to say, "I can't pre-empt the Ofcom investigation," which is as it should be. Now he's prejudiced that investigation, he's got to go.

 

He can bluster all he wants about the coalition and such, but when it comes to his quasi-judiciary responsibilities, he's got to keep schtum. But he couldn't do that because he's a vain old man.

 

[oafc0000]

I fear nothing more than a Tory led government without reins... If nothing else at least the Libs are slightly taming them. Best example is tution fees... The torys wanted it pretty much totally privatised with uncapped fees...

 

Lib / Labour partnership would be my preferred option but just don't see it happening. Can't see Labour winning outright at the moment. So if I am kind of hoping it doesn't fall apart as the alternative is something I think most people who aren't loaded should fear.

Edited December 22, 2010 by oafc0000

[leeslover]

Not sre about this one, there can't be single person in politics who hasn't expressed a view about Murdoch in private. The minister could call him every nam under the sun so long as he performs his duties correctly, that's what civil servants are there for (allegedly). I shouldn't get too excited about the effect on the Lib Dems anyway, their rank and file will be delighted at thinking they actually have some influence.

[Diego_Sideburns]

... there can't be single person in politics who hasn't expressed a view about Murdoch in private.

 

He's never had any of my money.

[Guest Scratch2000uk]

They are all bent as a nine bob note, whoever you choose.