The Fitness Coach-Not Fit For Purpose?

[Keepingthe Faith]

In SC's Chronicle Interview "We have spent a lot of time and money on a fitness coach and other teams look fitter and stronger than we do. It is not showing"

 

We do seem to drop off and look tired in second half of games. Time For Change?

[oafcprozac]

And they have done in fairness for some time

[Lags]

Said it loads of times now that we fade in the decond half. Did so all pre season too. Set of passing and moving looking great, then pow!. Trouble is now the confidence is shot so we have stopped that great stuff from the off.

[bluehobbit]

Taxi for butler by the sounds of it.

 

Is john harbin looking for a job?

 

Surely we should be able to attract someone to get the players as fit as possible it would be nice to have a team that could turn up with some effort for 90 mins

[opinions4u]

Heard some less than impressive reports from the DW gym about how he goes about his business.

 

Also, didn't Kuqi moreorless operate his own personal fitness regime?

[Keepingthe Faith]

I read some of the players tweets saying they felt fitter than ever, to me fitness and stamina are two very different things. It definitely seems to me it's the latter that's missing!

[Twisbrogan]

Certainly seems quite a pointed reference in that article to suggest that some kind of shake up on the fitness side will be made. No idea what that would mean or what the players should be doing in this respect but every time I see them warming up, the one who seems the fittest and most enthusiastic of the lot is Butler himself. The rest are either going through the motions or are knackered.

[jburbri]

In our last three games we have wilted. What did they do in that warm weather training in Portugal an hour a day and sit on a beach with the odd game thrown in .

[slystallone]

TBH - the fitness of the playing side has been IMO poor since John Harbin left. Postman Matt said similar on the actual SC thread.

 

I'm a sports science graduate from 10+ years ago, & granted my job now involves absolutely nothing to do with any elements of my degree, but that said - from the 3 years of studying I'd undertook, I've puzzled over our pre-game routines (and therefore also wondered about the week training too) for a fair few years now. I've posted on this previously too; under Sheridan's and Penney's management as well as PD's, so it's not a new thing. But, over the last 2 seasons and the start of this one; I have picked up on a few things:

 

· The seeming lack of structure to the pre-game pitch warm up's. IMO it seems too 'let's get them doing some generic group stretches, then they can kick a ball about to each other and shoot at goal'. I'd personally like to see some more of a plyometric focus to the warm-ups; linked to this happening through the week's training also. Explosive force & power exercises; linked to overall improve speed and movement. But we seem to merely stretch off the standard muscle groups quickly and then the footballs come out and they trot off to kick them about.

 

· We tire, pretty much as a unit, at around the 70minute mark. It seems like we can't maintain the effort of high pressing, and become drained for the final 20mins. We concede lots of late goals, and this IMo is linked to the effects of physical tiredness BUT also the linked mental tiredness. I worry what exactly the players are being asked to do Mon-Fri in terms of Aerobic cardio regimes.

 

· We do in-fact suffer a fair few muscle injuries - which is exactly the opposite of what Butler said would happen when he came in. Again, I would be asking why this is the case.

 

· The reliance on energy shots and sports drinks. 1 or 2 of our players seem unable to get through a game without having to take an energy shot, or constantly coming over for energy drinks. I remember last season Tom Adeyemi being sick pretty much in front of where I sit after drinking too much of the sports drinks in too short a time-frame. Why are professional athletes having to rely on short bursts of glucose syrups (and in some examples, also caffeine and other additives) to get through a 90minute game? Why are they relying so much on isotonic supplement drinks to get them extra carbohydrates to get them through games? Where is the core fitness in some of the plays & why are they seemingly struggling to manage to perform at a high level for 2 x 45minute periods?

 

· We've had a number of players who have been coined slow or that 'don't have that turn of pace'. It's a misnomer that this can't be worked on, and it's just one of those things that you either possess or don't. Speed & acceleration drills using basic equipment can easily be incorporated into weekly training sessions; I'd you'd start to see noticeable differences in players if they were doing them. There are a number of players who are not showing any improvements in speed, acceleration & agility at all; I'd wonder why?

 

I loved turning up early at games and seeing the warm-up's under Harbin. They were 1st rate. Yep, we looked a tad silly with the yoga mats and mini hurdles and zigzag poles, but they were structured and relevant. We were the fittest I've ever seen us under Dowie/Harbin (mainly Harbin on that front), the players all as a unit were strong In the latter stages; and I don't remember there being masses of muscle injuries in terms of direct pulls etc. Even the ball work in the warm-ups was training focused; with set exercises passing between cones and in systems, the shots at goal were even organised with staff members laying the balls off and ordered lines of players - instead of the free-for-all it has become.

 

I had high hopes for Paul Butler - his CV read well; especially the work he's supposedly done at the Australian Institute of Sport. Harbin had a background in Rugby League and brought across to football many of the principals he'd honed in that sport. Butler worked in Rugby League at the Institute allegedly; so I expected some new thinking and some cross-over principals to be on show.

 

I have to be honest here and say I don't see what he has implemented here with us. We actually look less fit since he's come in, and the structure looks like he's happy to let them do what they want warm-up wise, so god-knows what happens on the training ground Monday to Friday. He now spends more time giving the subs tactical handovers before they go on than anything else he does. I'd suggest he focus on what he's actually paid to do and get the playing staff physically up to speed and fitness before he starts with playing at assistant manager.

Sorry for the essay-esq post but the fitness of the side is something I take an interest in due to my old degree studies; and I think it's frankly pretty shambolic really

 

 

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

TBH - the fitness of the playing side has been IMO poor since John Harbin left. Postman Matt said similar on the actual SC thread.

 

I'm a sports science graduate from 10+ years ago, & granted my job now involves absolutely nothing to do with any elements of my degree, but that said - from the 3 years of studying I'd undertook, I've puzzled over our pre-game routines (and therefore also wondered about the week training too) for a fair few years now. I've posted on this previously too; under Sheridan's and Penney's management as well as PD's, so it's not a new thing. But, over the last 2 seasons and the start of this one; I have picked up on a few things:

 

· The seeming lack of structure to the pre-game pitch warm up's. IMO it seems too 'let's get them doing some generic group stretches, then they can kick a ball about to each other and shoot at goal'. I'd personally like to see some more of a plyometric focus to the warm-ups; linked to this happening through the week's training also. Explosive force & power exercises; linked to overall improve speed and movement. But we seem to merely stretch off the standard muscle groups quickly and then the footballs come out and they trot off to kick them about.

 

· We tire, pretty much as a unit, at around the 70minute mark. It seems like we can't maintain the effort of high pressing, and become drained for the final 20mins. We concede lots of late goals, and this IMo is linked to the effects of physical tiredness BUT also the linked mental tiredness. I worry what exactly the players are being asked to do Mon-Fri in terms of Aerobic cardio regimes.

 

· We do in-fact suffer a fair few muscle injuries - which is exactly the opposite of what Butler said would happen when he came in. Again, I would be asking why this is the case.

 

· The reliance on energy shots and sports drinks. 1 or 2 of our players seem unable to get through a game without having to take an energy shot, or constantly coming over for energy drinks. I remember last season Tom Adeyemi being sick pretty much in front of where I sit after drinking too much of the sports drinks in too short a time-frame. Why are professional athletes having to rely on short bursts of glucose syrups (and in some examples, also caffeine and other additives) to get through a 90minute game? Why are they relying so much on isotonic supplement drinks to get them extra carbohydrates to get them through games? Where is the core fitness in some of the plays & why are they seemingly struggling to manage to perform at a high level for 2 x 45minute periods?

 

· We've had a number of players who have been coined slow or that 'don't have that turn of pace'. It's a misnomer that this can't be worked on, and it's just one of those things that you either possess or don't. Speed & acceleration drills using basic equipment can easily be incorporated into weekly training sessions; I'd you'd start to see noticeable differences in players if they were doing them. There are a number of players who are not showing any improvements in speed, acceleration & agility at all; I'd wonder why?

 

I loved turning up early at games and seeing the warm-up's under Harbin. They were 1st rate. Yep, we looked a tad silly with the yoga mats and mini hurdles and zigzag poles, but they were structured and relevant. We were the fittest I've ever seen us under Dowie/Harbin (mainly Harbin on that front), the players all as a unit were strong In the latter stages; and I don't remember there being masses of muscle injuries in terms of direct pulls etc. Even the ball work in the warm-ups was training focused; with set exercises passing between cones and in systems, the shots at goal were even organised with staff members laying the balls off and ordered lines of players - instead of the free-for-all it has become.

 

 

I had high hopes for Paul Butler - his CV read well; especially the work he's supposedly done at the Australian Institute of Sport. Harbin had a background in Rugby League and brought across to football many of the principals he'd honed in that sport. Butler worked in Rugby League at the Institute allegedly; so I expected some new thinking and some cross-over principals to be on show.

 

I have to be honest here and say I don't see what he has implemented here with us. We actually look less fit since he's come in, and the structure looks like he's happy to let them do what they want warm-up wise, so god-knows what happens on the training ground Monday to Friday. He now spends more time giving the subs tactical handovers before they go on than anything else he does. I'd suggest he focus on what he's actually paid to do and get the playing staff physically up to speed and fitness before he starts with playing at assistant manager.

 

Sorry for the essay-esq post but the fitness of the side is something I take an interest in due to my old degree studies; and I think it's frankly pretty shambolic really

 

 

 

 

 

One other thing about the Harbin regime is we looked :censored:ing mean warming up. There is such a thing as winning the warm-up. Other teams would have been looking over and thinking these lads mean business. Is it possible to just to copy what Harbin was doing? Can we do that? I'm sure the yoga mats are knocking around somewhere underneath the Chaddy End.

 

(PS: I've been self-upboating so I haven't got any left for you - sorry.)

[Keepingthe Faith]

Very well put Sly! ha hem ! I was just going to say the exact same thing, but, you erm, beat me to it.

 

It does look like SC has noticed and is biting his lip no longer, something has got to be done, being able to compete fitness/stamina wise, should be a given!

[slystallone]

One other thing about the Harbin regime is we looked :censored:ing mean warming up. There is such a thing as winning the warm-up. Other teams would have been looking over and thinking these lads mean business. Is it possible to just to copy what Harbin was doing? Can we do that? I'm sure the yoga mats are knocking around somewhere underneath the Chaddy End.

 

(PS: I've been self-upboating so I haven't got any left for you - sorry.)

 

In terms of Harbin's techniques and methods, I highly doubt he had any of them copyrighted or patent protected - I would wager they were just adapted methods picked up and developed over the years from reading coaching books and manuals, adapting his Rugby League methods to suite Football, and from talking & swapping ideas with other conditioning experts and colleagues.

 

Butler could use similar methods to the warm-ups and week-to-week training as Harbin did if he wanted to, but from the outside looking in, he goes about his strength, conditioning and fitness methods in a completely different manner to Harbin; rightly or wrongly. The way the fitness is presently; I'd sway to wrongly - and I would be looking at re-assessing the current methods; especially as his boss and club chairman has been critical of them in the media.

 

Side point also - Harbin and Dowie (shouldn't forget he had an input in this too) also had some forward thinking methods for training through the week. As well as the "standard" ball-work training session that every club use, The players went to boxing and taekwondo class sessions, went swimming, went to water aerobics classes, did Pilates sessions and also were known to go on cross-country runs….to supplement the ball work sessions. It worked, and I wouldn't be too disappointed if it was re-visited anytime soon.

 

Upboating wise - made me chuckle that!

 

[RobOAFC]

Didn't Harbin have them swimming first thing then have them boxing during the week?

[oafcprozac]

Maybe Jenny could take them pole dancing?

[BP1960]

TBH - the fitness of the playing side has been IMO poor since John Harbin left. Postman Matt said similar on the actual SC thread.

 

I'm a sports science graduate from 10+ years ago, & granted my job now involves absolutely nothing to do with any elements of my degree, but that said - from the 3 years of studying I'd undertook, I've puzzled over our pre-game routines (and therefore also wondered about the week training too) for a fair few years now. I've posted on this previously too; under Sheridan's and Penney's management as well as PD's, so it's not a new thing. But, over the last 2 seasons and the start of this one; I have picked up on a few things:

 

· The seeming lack of structure to the pre-game pitch warm up's. IMO it seems too 'let's get them doing some generic group stretches, then they can kick a ball about to each other and shoot at goal'. I'd personally like to see some more of a plyometric focus to the warm-ups; linked to this happening through the week's training also. Explosive force & power exercises; linked to overall improve speed and movement. But we seem to merely stretch off the standard muscle groups quickly and then the footballs come out and they trot off to kick them about.

 

· We tire, pretty much as a unit, at around the 70minute mark. It seems like we can't maintain the effort of high pressing, and become drained for the final 20mins. We concede lots of late goals, and this IMo is linked to the effects of physical tiredness BUT also the linked mental tiredness. I worry what exactly the players are being asked to do Mon-Fri in terms of Aerobic cardio regimes.

 

· We do in-fact suffer a fair few muscle injuries - which is exactly the opposite of what Butler said would happen when he came in. Again, I would be asking why this is the case.

 

· The reliance on energy shots and sports drinks. 1 or 2 of our players seem unable to get through a game without having to take an energy shot, or constantly coming over for energy drinks. I remember last season Tom Adeyemi being sick pretty much in front of where I sit after drinking too much of the sports drinks in too short a time-frame. Why are professional athletes having to rely on short bursts of glucose syrups (and in some examples, also caffeine and other additives) to get through a 90minute game? Why are they relying so much on isotonic supplement drinks to get them extra carbohydrates to get them through games? Where is the core fitness in some of the plays & why are they seemingly struggling to manage to perform at a high level for 2 x 45minute periods?

 

· We've had a number of players who have been coined slow or that 'don't have that turn of pace'. It's a misnomer that this can't be worked on, and it's just one of those things that you either possess or don't. Speed & acceleration drills using basic equipment can easily be incorporated into weekly training sessions; I'd you'd start to see noticeable differences in players if they were doing them. There are a number of players who are not showing any improvements in speed, acceleration & agility at all; I'd wonder why?

 

I loved turning up early at games and seeing the warm-up's under Harbin. They were 1st rate. Yep, we looked a tad silly with the yoga mats and mini hurdles and zigzag poles, but they were structured and relevant. We were the fittest I've ever seen us under Dowie/Harbin (mainly Harbin on that front), the players all as a unit were strong In the latter stages; and I don't remember there being masses of muscle injuries in terms of direct pulls etc. Even the ball work in the warm-ups was training focused; with set exercises passing between cones and in systems, the shots at goal were even organised with staff members laying the balls off and ordered lines of players - instead of the free-for-all it has become.

 

 

I had high hopes for Paul Butler - his CV read well; especially the work he's supposedly done at the Australian Institute of Sport. Harbin had a background in Rugby League and brought across to football many of the principals he'd honed in that sport. Butler worked in Rugby League at the Institute allegedly; so I expected some new thinking and some cross-over principals to be on show.

 

I have to be honest here and say I don't see what he has implemented here with us. We actually look less fit since he's come in, and the structure looks like he's happy to let them do what they want warm-up wise, so god-knows what happens on the training ground Monday to Friday. He now spends more time giving the subs tactical handovers before they go on than anything else he does. I'd suggest he focus on what he's actually paid to do and get the playing staff physically up to speed and fitness before he starts with playing at assistant manager.

 

Sorry for the essay-esq post but the fitness of the side is something I take an interest in due to my old degree studies; and I think it's frankly pretty shambolic really

 

 

Plenty of common sense there Sly, Matt Smith is a good example, stepping up to full time training should have improved his speed off the mark and acceleration, but from what I've seen he's exactly the same as when he played part time for Droylsden.

[singe]

On twitter, some of the team at leaset had just started Bikram Yoga (last week), that Any Murray started last year I think.

Not sure if it was the whole team, or if it was officail or not.

But most of you have pointed out, stamina not fitness are the issues.

Dowies teams looked mean at the warm up, and they could play another game straight after the game they just played.

[singe]

Unfortunately, he is not likely to be an option here. But I sppose the lure of a decent pay packet...

 

According to wrongipedia ; He is currently coach of rugby league team Yeppoon Seagulls in the Queensland Rugby League Central Division

Harbin is the manager of the Dreamtime Lodge in Rockhampton [Queesnland]

[Zorrro]

Fitness/stamina affects the minute things like first touch as well. When you're sharp you relax more, meaning your confidence increases with the knowledge you could probably get the ball back if you DID have a shonky first touch; more often than not leading to a spot on first touch in the first place etc. ad infinitum. ad nauseum.

 

Bring back the boxing.

[razza699]

Brilliant post Sly

 

It says it all when Stevenage were out with their coach at half time doing warm ups and our players were just laughing in the usual kick up circle

 

Stevenage then came out for the second half and did a quick warm up whilst our players were still mincing around

 

Its basics yet not there . Its so worrying

[singe]

Fitness/stamina affects the minute things like first touch as well. When you're sharp you relax more, meaning your confidence increases with the knowledge you could probably get the ball back if you DID have a shonky first touch; more often than not leading to a spot on first touch in the first place etc. ad infinitum. ad nauseum.

 

Bring back the boxing.

Yep, I reckon the swimming had a good effect too.

[Dave_Og]

Can't bring boxing back - Taylor's left; who they gonna punch?

[slystallone]

Can't bring boxing back - Taylor's left; who they gonna punch?

 

Put Dan Taylor in a ginger wig and vola!

[Keepingthe Faith]

Can't bring boxing back - Taylor's left; who they gonna punch?

 

Could always get some aids/props in, like rice puddings complete with skins and some large wet paper bags.

[rudemedic]

There's a bit of me that thinks all this has done is take some of the attention about what they do at the club from Billy Quarmby and put it on Paul "fitness" Butler. I fully expect Paul Butler to be helping warming up the subs for the next few away games as Billy is aparently off on holiday.

[slystallone]

There's a bit of me that thinks all this has done is take some of the attention about what they do at the club from Billy Quarmby and put it on Paul "fitness" Butler. I fully expect Paul Butler to be helping warming up the subs for the next few away games as Billy is aparently off on holiday.

 

Nope, I still blame Quarmby, pretty much for everything, ever.