JA11K Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 So for a midget, he gets quite high! That doesn't make him a good header of the ball! How on earth can you make a case for a football player then mention his shortfalls before you even start to make a case. Rather like saying about a bloke with no right leg, he is very good with his left! Then you mention what you see as his best attribute being a tackler! That would be good for a defender but he is a midfielder, Jesus! By the way Wes is only deemed to be the defensive midfielder because he cannot pass the bloody ball! He is doing a 'Furman' on you! Wes wins more headers than the majority of the players on our team, he is strong in the air. Ok then, there's no such thing as a defensive midfielder, I forgot about that one - someone should tell Sergio Busquets or Javi Martinez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 hello Jamie about 12ish dropped in Crewe mate then train back to Mcr would be good to Hook up Most definitely. Will aim for similar. I'll call you on Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Wes wins more headers than the majority of the players on our team, he is strong in the air. Ok then, there's no such thing as a defensive midfielder, I forgot about that one - someone should tell Sergio Busquets or Javi Martinez. PMSL. Do those 2 play in the 3rd division? Are they relevant to the discussion or are you running out of ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JA11K Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 PMSL. Do those 2 play in the 3rd division? Are they relevant to the discussion or are you running out of ideas? It doesn't matter what division they play in, the point is that defensive midfielders are a key part of football and Wes, with his strong tackling ability, is well-suited to this role at our level. Obviously he is not at their level, but for a League One midfielder he is more than capable, as will be shown when he moves on to better things at the end of the season. If you want to be blind to that, that's fine by me - I'd love to see you choose a side with a central midfielder who can't tackle, it'd be great fun watching us getting completely overrun in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Surely midfielders have always made more tackles than defenders? Certainly now when defenders don't dare go in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 In fact, the CM who stays on his feet and denies space would be a Michael Carrick in the Prem or s Richard Butcher at ours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) Any facts that you may have quoted are totally irrelevant to the discussion. How can I give a counter argument when you haven't come up with any points. Let me take this simply. Goals scored! Why should Korey have scored more than Wes? 2 Players signed in January! What has that got to do with our midfield problems? School; Grammar School, College; Manchester, Further Qualifications body; Professional. Beats a bloody HNC doesn't it! There is a massive clue as to why Korey should have scored more goals than Wes in my first post, let's see if you can find it. When you do, come back and I can show you some more stats. Especially as you have never really indicated any stats as to why Wes's better goal scoring record is irrelevant, as quite frankly I would like to know because most people expect their midfielders to score goals. As to my intellectual prowess, my field of study is referenced probably close to 8 or 9000 times on this site alone, but I was rightly called a cock for getting into an academic willy-waving contest a few years ago on here and I don't fancy it again. If you really want details I can go into them, but quite frankly I can't be bothered as I like my pseudo-anonymity on here. Edited March 9, 2014 by rudemedic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 It doesn't matter what division they play in, the point is that defensive midfielders are a key part of football and Wes, with his strong tackling ability, is well-suited to this role at our level. Obviously he is not at their level, but for a League One midfielder he is more than capable, as will be shown when he moves on to better things at the end of the season. If you want to be blind to that, that's fine by me - I'd love to see you choose a side with a central midfielder who can't tackle, it'd be great fun watching us getting completely overrun in the middle. It's not great though watching the two current central midfielders in tandem and we still get overrun, particularly the first half trend at Boundary Park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 The disappointment goes on but I'm still confident both that we will stay up that we have a good manager. Agree with that. Also don't have a massive problem with him trying to improve a few variables (Ball-boys, crowd singing, etc..) to try and give us a bit of an advantage. Another minor point that other teams seem to be good at (and us not..) is making the most of it when we've been fouled. Lost count the amount of times Preston players went down and stayed down to waste a bit of time/temp the ref into a booking. Maybe not in the spirit of the game, but every other team seems to do it apart from us. Yes, our main problems are on the pitch, but being a bit shrewd with the trivial things certainly won't do us any harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 There is a massive clue as to why Korey should have scored more goals than Wes in my first post, let's see if you can find it. When you do, come back and I can show you some more stats. Especially as you have never really indicated any stats as to why Wes's better goal scoring record is irrelevant, as quite frankly I would like to know because most people expect their midfielders to score goals. As to my intellectual prowess, my field of study is referenced probably close to 8 or 9000 times on this site alone, but I was rightly called a cock for getting into an academic willy-waving contest a few years ago on here and I don't fancy it again. If you really want details I can go into them, but quite frankly I can't be bothered as I like my pseudo-anonymity on here. I have had my differences of opinion with rude medic in the past, but he does make some valid points on the lack of goals from central midfield, the problem is does LJ carry on with the same combination with the likelihood of the same results, or take one of the out of the equation and draft in a more direct attacking central midfielder with a decent goal scoring record? There's no natural on the books - except possibly converting Harkins or Philliskirk to a central midfield role to partner Smith or Wesolowski, so a move into the loan market may be the answer, whether such a player is available at the moment is another matter, but perhaps it's something LJ may consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Sinnott Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) Most definitely. Will aim for similar. I'll call you on Saturday. Football friends... Edited March 9, 2014 by Lee Sinnott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JA11K Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 It's not great though watching the two current central midfielders in tandem and we still get overrun, particularly the first half trend at Boundary Park. I didn't say it was, but without Wes we would get overrun much more frequently. If Smith pushed higher up the pitch, in conjunction with a striker dropping a bit deeper and offering someone to rotate around (Philliskirk when on form), we'd have a lot more goals in the team. The problem is that Smith is quite reclusive (though whether this is his decision of LJ's remains unseen), giving us little chance of outnumbering the opposition's defence. If we had a midfield trio like this: Wes Smith Philliskirk You could have Wes sitting and breaking up play, Smith feeding the ball out wide and to Philliskirk before pushing forward and joining the attack as a goalscoring threat (something he has looked loathe to do admittedly), and Philliskirk acting as a pivot, working little one-twos with his back to goal before spinning off, feeding the ball through to the striker or even just having a shot himself. That way, when the ball is out wide you have four players in the penalty area (Smith, Philli, Striker and opposite winger), whereas now we only usually have one or two, while when it's in the middle you've got the wingers running in behind, the striker playing off the last man, and one of Philli and Smith to get into the box as well. Even with one full-back pushing forward we should have enough cover to deal with a counter-attack, with Wes going wide to cover it and the three remaining defenders there to mop up any balls into the penalty area. It's probably much more complicated than that, but getting numbers forward is a much better way of attacking than our current method of 'get it to Harkins'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitey1980 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) The Wes - Smith - Philiskirk in the hole combination was exactly what he did play at Preston earlier in the season IIRC. When he dropped Wes for Mellor at Rotherham on the Saturday, we had a massive issue in our play because they pressed Smith hard and we were unable to play out from the back in the same way. It was only when Mellor was sent off and Wes came on that our play improved because we regained the ability to find space to play the ball out from the back. The difference in that side of the early season however was the pace and outlets provided by the fullbacks and wide midfielders. Too often now, we retain the ball quite well but as soon as we progress through the midfield all the pace in the attack is lost when the ball is played wide. This makes life doubly difficult for both Wes AND Smith both who need pace and movement further forward to be effective. Edited March 9, 2014 by whitey1980 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) The Wes - Smith - Philiskirk in the hole combination was exactly what he did play at Preston earlier in the season IIRC. When he dropped Wes for Mellor at Rotherham on the Saturday, we had a massive issue in our play because they pressed Smith hard and we were unable to play out from the back in the same way. It was only when Mellor was sent off and Wes came on that our play improved because we regained the ability to find space to play the ball out from the back. The difference in that side of the early season however was the pace and outlets provided by the fullbacks and wide midfielders. Too often now, we retain the ball quite well but as soon as we progress through the midfield all the pace in the attack is lost when the ball is played wide. This makes life doubly difficult for both Wes AND Smith both who need pace and movement further forward to be effective. I have no issue with them playing both together in away games using the counter attack, but its a different kettle of fish at home when IMO the central midfield needs to be more positive. Edited March 9, 2014 by BP1960 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 It doesn't matter what division they play in, the point is that defensive midfielders are a key part of football and Wes, with his strong tackling ability, is well-suited to this role at our level. Obviously he is not at their level, but for a League One midfielder he is more than capable, as will be shown when he moves on to better things at the end of the season. If you want to be blind to that, that's fine by me - I'd love to see you choose a side with a central midfielder who can't tackle, it'd be great fun watching us getting completely overrun in the middle. So what offer did we turn down in January for Wes? I have forgotten, no sorry the offer was for Korey Smith. Why is that? To me it is patently obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I didn't say it was, but without Wes we would get overrun much more frequently. If Smith pushed higher up the pitch, in conjunction with a striker dropping a bit deeper and offering someone to rotate around (Philliskirk when on form), we'd have a lot more goals in the team. The problem is that Smith is quite reclusive (though whether this is his decision of LJ's remains unseen), giving us little chance of outnumbering the opposition's defence. If we had a midfield trio like this: Wes Smith Philliskirk You could have Wes sitting and breaking up play, Smith feeding the ball out wide and to Philliskirk before pushing forward and joining the attack as a goalscoring threat (something he has looked loathe to do admittedly), and Philliskirk acting as a pivot, working little one-twos with his back to goal before spinning off, feeding the ball through to the striker or even just having a shot himself. That way, when the ball is out wide you have four players in the penalty area (Smith, Philli, Striker and opposite winger), whereas now we only usually have one or two, while when it's in the middle you've got the wingers running in behind, the striker playing off the last man, and one of Philli and Smith to get into the box as well. Even with one full-back pushing forward we should have enough cover to deal with a counter-attack, with Wes going wide to cover it and the three remaining defenders there to mop up any balls into the penalty area. It's probably much more complicated than that, but getting numbers forward is a much better way of attacking than our current method of 'get it to Harkins'. I agree! I totally agree! But Wes is not good enough! So what is the solution? Replace him and give Smith a decent partner who he can rely upon so he can get forward and utilise his talents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 So what offer did we turn down in January for Wes? I have forgotten, no sorry the offer was for Korey Smith. Why is that? To me it is patently obvious Wes is available on a free for next season now. Korey isn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_ktf Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I think people are missing the central point. We have some good players, but is LJ getting the best out of them?? We played well for 5-7 mins in the second half yesterday. That's it!! It was abject for the other 83 mins. As a collective we look fragile, lightweight, an mentally weak. The tempo is awful, an we very rarely impose ourselves, who's repsonible for that??? I posted something very similar to this under Dickov, it's the MANNER of our performance. Not neccersarily results. What does he say to them mid week, or before a game?? Why do keep we coming out starting games so poorly? It's depressing trying to convince yourself at games that's it's 'fine lines' or 'we're close'. What's the point in going if you can't hope that we're getting somewhere. In truth we're not even looking like a side with potential. We trudge through games. I'm as desperate as everyone else to have a modicum of success- I'll take mid table with the promise of more to come, but it just doesn't feel like we're heading in the right direction. Respected posters are saying to many times, it's not acceptable. . . I absolutely totally an utterly refuse to accept that that budget that allows nearly 40 players a game; is not capable of some decent football with a mid table finish. I don't want him sacked, because as so many have said it starts all over again. I just want something to cling to that he's the right man. With each passing week my belief is dwindling. Hope I'm wrong. I doubt I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_balls Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I'm not on any bandwagon. I do find your posts to be worded in a way designed to say "I told so" further down the line. I also think you're the Twitter troll but I might be wrong with that. I don't think he is. But he's overestimated his own ability to influence footballers to perform better as a collective than their combined individual abilities. The game was gone already. There was no expectation of saving it. To me it was an intelligent time to give this pair their debut. Damned if they do. Damned if they don't. Rooney wasn't delivering on the pitch. Carried a big wage. Would he be banging them in left right and centre if he was starting for Latics? Little evidence that the chances would arrive. Relegation? It might happen, but I doubt it - it certainly isn't inevitable. Bite enough? Earlier in the season, I was half joking/half on the wind, but i'm deadly serious in my belief we're going down. Thank you for your reasoned replies though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 There is a massive clue as to why Korey should have scored more goals than Wes in my first post, let's see if you can find it. When you do, come back and I can show you some more stats. Especially as you have never really indicated any stats as to why Wes's better goal scoring record is irrelevant, as quite frankly I would like to know because most people expect their midfielders to score goals. As to my intellectual prowess, my field of study is referenced probably close to 8 or 9000 times on this site alone, but I was rightly called a cock for getting into an academic willy-waving contest a few years ago on here and I don't fancy it again. If you really want details I can go into them, but quite frankly I can't be bothered as I like my pseudo-anonymity on here. 9000 times, well you must have a big cock then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Wes is available on a free for next season now. Korey isn't? If you can, in all honesty, say that you believe that to be the reason, then there is no hope for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slystallone Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 I agree! I totally agree! But Wes is not good enough! So what is the solution? Replace him and give Smith a decent partner who he can rely upon so he can get forward and utilise his talents. ..".but Wes is not good enough." In your humble opinion, you believe that statement to be true. It's just that I, and a great majority of others, believe your opinion on this; and that statement, to be utter drivel. <awaits mr / mrs smoker to reply with yet another patronising post - flying around the point that he / she fails to give any creditable or valid stats or arguements as to why Wes is such a joke of a player and the real reason as to why we suffer so...> 3, 2, 1.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scratch2000uk Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 To be fair, anyone who has played average or slightly above would stand out this season. Wes isn't the greatest, but at least he shows some passion. This side reminds me of the Dickov side, not sure much has changed IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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