Possible Resubmission of Outline Planning Permission.

[Diego_Sideburns]

I am absolutely gutted at tonights's events.

 

Then to add insult to injury, after the meeting had gone on longer than I estimated and after I'd joined in the post-meeting debate, I found a fixed penalty notice for £30 on my car windscreen. Talk about kicking a man when he's down!

 

I've not read through everyone's posts and I don't want to get involved in any arguments, but as I believe the Club's existence is in grave danger at the moment, I've grasped the nettle and sent the following email to Simon Corney:

 

Simon,

 

This is a black night in the history of Oldham Athletic. I am absolutely disgusted at the ignorance shown by the Councillors, the standard of debate and the decision of the Planning Committee. I am convinced that the Council would lose on Appeal, but I realise that such a course of action would be time consuming and costly.

 

I would like to beg you and your colleagues to consider resubmitting the outline application for reconsideration by the Committee, which I understand you have a right to do in the immediate future. Backed up with your written assurances and written answers to all the points raised by Councillors tonight, which you were not allowed to deal with under the procedure, I am sure that a majority of the Committee would grant outline planning permission next time, when advised by the Officers on the error of their ways tonight. After all, they would still have a further opportunity to consider the details in due course.

 

On behalf of all fans, I hope that you do no allow the Council to get away with such an irresponsible decision which flies in the face of all the documentary evidence, planning law and highway guidance. I would understand it if you felt that you have had enough of dealing with the Council, but to throw in the towel at this stage would be like giving in to a bully without putting up a fight.

 

I know it's easy for me and others to say this when it's not us who are losing money every week, but I hope you agree that all the hard work put into the club since the three of you took over has got to be worth fighting for, if only for one more Planning Committee meeting.

 

The Town needs you and your colleagues even though the Council may not appear to reflect that need at the moment.

 

Please give it one more try.

 

Keep the Faith.

[jsslatic]

Simon,

 

This is a black night in the history of Oldham Athletic. I am absolutely disgusted at the ignorance shown by the Councillors, the standard of debate and the decision of the Planning Committee. I am convinced that the Council would lose on Appeal, but I realise that such a course of action would be time consuming and costly.

 

I would like to beg you and your colleagues to consider resubmitting the outline application for reconsideration by the Committee, which I understand you have a right to do in the immediate future. Backed up with your written assurances and written answers to all the points raised by Councillors tonight, which you were not allowed to deal with under the procedure, I am sure that a majority of the Committee would grant outline planning permission next time, when advised by the Officers on the error of their ways tonight. After all, they would still have a further opportunity to consider the details in due course.

 

On behalf of all fans, I hope that you do no allow the Council to get away with such an irresponsible decision which flies in the face of all the documentary evidence, planning law and highway guidance. I would understand it if you felt that you have had enough of dealing with the Council, but to throw in the towel at this stage would be like giving in to a bully without putting up a fight.

 

I know it's easy for me and others to say this when it's not us who are losing money every week, but I hope you agree that all the hard work put into the club since the three of you took over has got to be worth fighting for, if only for one more Planning Committee meeting.

 

The Town needs you and your colleagues even though the Council may not appear to reflect that need at the moment.

 

Please give it one more try.

 

Keep the Faith.

 

Spot on, Diego.

[Hometownclub]

Diego,

 

Please excuse my possible ignorance on this matter but I attended last nights planning committee meeting and it became clear to me long before the committee got around to voting that we had little or no chance of getting the second application through. This was evident to me just from hearing the debate and the chairman and many of the other councillors refusal to believe the Highways Agency figures on traffic numbers around Elk Mill roundabout, Sheepfoot Lane/Rochdale Road Junction, Carlton Way and Westhulme Way.

 

To me they either didn't think that the traffic survey had been carried out correctly or indeed impartially, they were leaning heavily against the proposals long before the vote.

 

If the club appeals and re-sudmits the application then surely another traffic survey would need to be carried out (one which they believe and trust) last night they as good as called there own traffic officer a liar as the Chairman said he just could not accept the figures provided.

 

What written assurances could the club provide that would negate the need for another traffic survey.

 

If the club re-submits the application in its present form then another no vote is a certainty, the committee where and are looking for some assurance that the building of these flats will not cause traffic gridlock around the area at peak times due to about 1000 extra cars.

 

I'm not sure how the club can manage to do this.

[edhunteruk]

Diego,

 

Please excuse my possible ignorance on this matter but I attended last nights planning committee meeting and it became clear to me long before the committee got around to voting that we had little or no chance of getting the second application through. This was evident to me just from hearing the debate and the chairman and many of the other councillors refusal to believe the Highways Agency figures on traffic numbers around Elk Mill roundabout, Sheepfoot Lane/Rochdale Road Junction, Carlton Way and Westhulme Way.

 

To me they either didn't think that the traffic survey had been carried out correctly or indeed impartially, they were leaning heavily against the proposals long before the vote.

 

If the club appeals and re-sudmits the application then surely another traffic survey would need to be carried out (one which they believe and trust) last night they as good as called there own traffic officer a liar as the Chairman said he just could not accept the figures provided.

 

What written assurances could the club provide that would negate the need for another traffic survey.

 

If the club re-submits the application in its present form then another no vote is a certainty, the committee where and are looking for some assurance that the building of these flats will not cause traffic gridlock around the area at peak times due to about 1000 extra cars.

 

I'm not sure how the club can manage to do this.

 

if the owners decide thats it,had enough cut losses and leave,and worst case scenario we go bump and the ground closes,so on and so forth.

bp would be knocked down by a property developer and planning permission would be sort for housing.

your probably looking at a mixed site of houses and flats.say for arguments sake 400 dwellings,that alone will give you more traffic problems as it will be daily,plus there will be families moving in which will impact on local schools and so on.

 

so the nimbys are going to lose out eventually.

its just a shame that the officers are so short sighted and in my opinion havent been impartial.

[beag_teeets]

This figure of 1000 cars seems to be accepted - firstly this is mistake as this is an arbitary figure however it seems to have stuck. So, an extra 1000 on broadway/chaddy way in the morning and evening rush hours, if there were only 1000 cars using these roads this would be a massive incease, 100% increase, if 2000 cars used these roads this would only be 50% increase, 10,000 cars - the extra 1000 would only be 10% and so on.

 

1000 cars sounds like a lot however as a stand alone figure however, if placed in context the actually increase could be pretty negligible. This for me was shocking by the council, the failed to grasp the scale of the issue and instead showed themselves up as small minded parish councillors.

[Diego_Sideburns]

Diego,

 

Please excuse my possible ignorance on this matter but I attended last nights planning committee meeting and it became clear to me long before the committee got around to voting that we had little or no chance of getting the second application through. This was evident to me just from hearing the debate and the chairman and many of the other councillors refusal to believe the Highways Agency figures on traffic numbers around Elk Mill roundabout, Sheepfoot Lane/Rochdale Road Junction, Carlton Way and Westhulme Way.

 

To me they either didn't think that the traffic survey had been carried out correctly or indeed impartially, they were leaning heavily against the proposals long before the vote.

 

If the club appeals and re-sudmits the application then surely another traffic survey would need to be carried out (one which they believe and trust) last night they as good as called there own traffic officer a liar as the Chairman said he just could not accept the figures provided.

 

What written assurances could the club provide that would negate the need for another traffic survey.

 

If the club re-submits the application in its present form then another no vote is a certainty, the committee where and are looking for some assurance that the building of these flats will not cause traffic gridlock around the area at peak times due to about 1000 extra cars.

 

I'm not sure how the club can manage to do this.

 

The Chairman made great play of the fact that the Highways Agency's Holding Directive had only been withdrawn two hours before the meeting, and he was not happy with the contents of the report on the pink paper, which the councillors had only just received. On reflection the Officers may agree that it could have been worded a lot more clearly.

 

A resubmission of the outline application would result in the Officers spelling out to the Councillors in writing the Council's inability to challenge the traffic surveys and repeating that the proposed redevelopment complies with planning criteria. It would also be emphasised to the Councillors that the approval of outline consent still gives them another opportunity to go through the details when they are submitted in due course.

 

In addition, I believe the applicant should answer in writing all of the questions raised last night, including SC's "don't quote me" points, and reaffirm in writing the assurances given about continuing efforts to accommodate objectors' issues.

 

If this happens then I am convinced at least the two councillors needed to swing it in favour would be willing to vote for next time.

 

The procedure allows for a resubmission at no expense, so there is nothing to lose, except of course time, which costs money.

[leeslover]

This is the way to go - possibly it was for this very reason that part 2 was presented in outline rather than finalised form? This is why we need to be making the councillors explain in detail the reasons for their decision. If they can't give any reason that isn't covered by their own reports and the Club's submission, they will find it hard to vote against the plan again, knowing that they are being watched by a lot of interested voters. Go for it Mr Corney.

[oafckev]

To get so close to a positive decision and the fact that we only need to persuade two councillors to vote yes then I can't see the owners backing down on this one!

[Lags]

I was left numb with the outcome of the meeting. What really got to me was that Les Harrison who the chair stated as being a reknown professional in traffic management clearly agreed with the traffic survey that the extra cars would not impact on the area to a detrimental effect, not only once but a second time more clearly upon being asked by a councillor to do so. Then for the chairman to basically turn around and tell Les Harrison he didn't believe him was beyond comprehension. Not only this the resident group knowing that to go down the extra cars route was futile in the face of the report never really mentioned this in their statement to oppose this. Unbelieveable.

I just hope that when Oldham Athletics doors close (and I now believe this is inevitable) these very Councillors who have resided over an empty pursed council realise what they have done to the town and many folk in and out of it. To those over joyed residents enjoy your extra 10k on your house prices when BP finally is raised to the ground then watch them fall below there current value as the town of Oldham sinks into obscurity. I am just glad I don't live there!

To TTA thanks for the ride and giving me along with my fellow fans 4 years of hope to which wenever would have enjoyed without you. For me you can walk out the door today with nothing but praise from me. I really am sick to the stomach and cannot even now take in what those councillors did last night. Like I said to Jacko, who are we gonna support brother?

Edited November 15, 2007 by Lags

[johnny punkster]

This is the way to go - possibly it was for this very reason that part 2 was presented in outline rather than finalised form? This is why we need to be making the councillors explain in detail the reasons for their decision. If they can't give any reason that isn't covered by their own reports and the Club's submission, they will find it hard to vote against the plan again, knowing that they are being watched by a lot of interested voters. Go for it Mr Corney.

 

agreed andy.

if they have their reasons,explain to your voting public WHY.

represent your public-not your personal opinions.

[Alec1954]

I was left numb with the outcome of the meeting. What really got to me was that Les Harrison who the chair stated as being a reknown professional in traffic management clearly agreed with the traffic survey that the extra cars would not impact on the area to a detrimental effect, not only once but a second time more clearly upon being asked by a councillor to do so. Then for the chairman to basically turn around and tell Les Harrison he didn't believe him was beyond comprehension. Not only this the resident group knowing that to go down the extra cars route was futile in the face of the report never really mentioned this in their statement to oppose this. Unbelieveable.

I just hope that when Oldham Athletics doors close (and I now believe this is inevitable) these very Councillors who have resided over an empty pursed council realise what they have done to the town and many folk in and out of it. To those over joyed residents enjoy your extra 10k on your house prices when BP finally is raised to the ground then watch them fall below there current value as the town of Oldham sinks into obscurity. I am just glad I don't live there!

To TTA thanks for the ride and giving me along with my fellow fans 4 years of hope to which wenever would have enjoyed without you. For me you can walk out the door today with nothing but praise from me. I really am sick to the stomach and cannot even now take in what those councillors did last night. Like I said to Jacko, who are we gonna support brother?

 

 

This was my first visit to the Council Chamber. I am a professionally qualified Internal Auditor working in Government. It is my job to offer opinion and advice to The Chairman and the Dirtectors of my organisation. A copy of my work is laid before Parliament.

 

I was gob-smacked at the shoddyness of the procedures. I was astonished at the lack of professionalism. The dress code of the councillors. Their limited verbal ability hit me hard. I really felt that they did not possess the necessary skills and qualities to fulfil their roles comptetantly.

 

How can anyone profess 'an interest' in the matter and then vote?

 

I now know why Tommyfield has died, why the many debacles in the town have occured. We simply do not have sufficient planning governance in place.

[beag_teeets]

I was left numb with the outcome of the meeting. What really got to me was that Les Harrison who the chair stated as being a reknown professional in traffic management clearly agreed with the traffic survey that the extra cars would not impact on the area to a detrimental effect, not only once but a second time more clearly upon being asked by a councillor to do so. Then for the chairman to basically turn around and tell Les Harrison he didn't believe him was beyond comprehension. Not only this the resident group knowing that to go down the extra cars route was futile in the face of the report never really mentioned this in their statement to oppose this. Unbelieveable.

I just hope that when Oldham Athletics doors close (and I now believe this is inevitable) these very Councillors who have resided over an empty pursed council realise what they have done to the town and many folk in and out of it. To those over joyed residents enjoy your extra 10k on your house prices when BP finally is raised to the ground then watch them fall below there current value as the town of Oldham sinks into obscurity. I am just glad I don't live there!

To TTA thanks for the ride and giving me along with my fellow fans 4 years of hope to which wenever would have enjoyed without you. For me you can walk out the door today with nothing but praise from me. I really am sick to the stomach and cannot even now take in what those councillors did last night. Like I said to Jacko, who are we gonna support brother?

 

 

Well said Lags.

 

I too considered who I was going to support, I live in Bury so they would be the obvious choice but do I want to put mself through the mill with another cash stapped club? Not really so I considered Bolton but doesn't feel right, plus I don't like the Wanderers surname. I could do Citeh, most of their fans are bitter people so I would fit in there or I could go for the glory and follow the scum but I reckon I would get bored with winning and the rest of the fans would pee me off.

[Inspiral_Carpet]

This was my first visit to the Council Chamber. I am a professionally qualified Internal Auditor working in Government. It is my job to offer opinion and advice to The Chairman and the Dirtectors of my organisation. A copy of my work is laid before Parliament.

 

I was gob-smacked at the shoddyness of the procedures. I was astonished at the lack of professionalism. The dress code of the councillors. Their limited verbal ability hit me hard. I really felt that they did not possess the necessary skills and qualities to fulfil their roles comptetantly.

 

How can anyone profess 'an interest' in the matter and then vote?

 

I now know why Tommyfield has died, why the many debacles in the town have occured. We simply do not have sufficient planning governance in place.

 

I don't know how we could call for a "Vote of No Confidence" in The Council or if that is even possible.

 

It is definitely warranted though.

 

I have to say this is something that The Press need to take up as it is a complete joke and miscarriage of Justice.

[danoafc]

Well said Lags.

 

I too considered who I was going to support, I live in Bury so they would be the obvious choice but do I want to put mself through the mill with another cash stapped club? Not really so I considered Bolton but doesn't feel right, plus I don't like the Wanderers surname. I could do Citeh, most of their fans are bitter people so I would fit in there or I could go for the glory and follow the scum but I reckon I would get bored with winning and the rest of the fans would pee me off.

 

Sorry Tony, but if we fold on the back of this, then that's it for me.

 

If I fancy taking in a game now and then I might go and watch Chadderton or at a push Oldham Town, but I could never bring myself to support another professional team. It would feel like pissing on a dead relative's grave.

[OminousPoultry]

I don't know how we could call for a "Vote of No Confidence" in The Council or if that is even possible.

 

It is definitely warranted though.

 

I have to say this is something that The Press need to take up as it is a complete joke and miscarriage of Justice.

 

Are there any grounds for an appeal against the ctte meeting itself - based on not following process?

 

If they:

• Don't allow questions and answers from experts during the meeting
• Only allow the applicant 2 or 3 minutes to present the application
• Go counter to OMBC Planning Dept advice
• Have a Chairman who has a vested interest and said he would stand down, then doesn't
• Dismiss expert opinion they themselves had insisted be sought
• Fail to prepare

for the meeting

 

..then has a fair process been followed?

Edited November 15, 2007 by OminousPoultry

[beag_teeets]

I know Dan, I can't really bring myself to "support" another team, would feel like cheating on the missus. I have been boring people at work about this today and have been saying that it looks like I am going to have a lot of free Saturdays soon.

[RoytonBlueLad]

Sorry Tony, but if we fold on the back of this, then that's it for me.

 

If I fancy taking in a game now and then I might go and watch Chadderton or at a push Oldham Town, but I could never bring myself to support another professional team. It would feel like pissing on a dead relative's grave.

 

If that was it, I think I'd fall out with football. If there isn't a place for teams like us through whatever decisions I don't think I'd bother.

[Inspiral_Carpet]

Are there any grounds for an appeal against the ctte meeting itself - based on not following process?

 

If they:

• Don't allow questions and answers from experts during the meeting
• Only allow the applicant 2 or 3 minutes to present the application
• Go counter to OMBC Planning Dept advice
• Have a Chairman who has a vested interest and said he would stand down, then doesn't
• Dismiss expert opinion they themselves had insisted be sought
• Fail to prepare

for the meeting

 

..then has a fair process been followed?

 

Good points Richard and they failed on all those counts.

 

We need an expert in Local Council Law. Not my field I'm afraid. Any other takers?

[Diego_Sideburns]

I don't know how we could call for a "Vote of No Confidence" in The Council or if that is even possible.

 

It is definitely warranted though.

 

The Leader of the controlling group on the Council is Councillor David Jones. He should be informed of last night's events and the manner in which the Committee's mishandling of the outline application's consideration was perceived by such a lagrge number of members of the public.

 

email: david.r.jones@oldham.gov.uk

 

I've edited the email address as there are two David Jones - I was misinformed when i phoned the Council asking for the Leader's email address.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Diego_Sideburns

[Guest sheridans_world]

The Leader of the controlling group on the Council is Councillor David Jones. He should be informed of last night's events and the manner in which the Committee's mishandling of the outline application's consideration was perceived by such a lagrge number of members of the public.

 

email: david.jones@oldham.gov.uk

 

Cllr Jones has passed my email on to him.

[OminousPoultry]

We need an expert in Local Council Law. Not my field I'm afraid. Any other takers?

 

I've 'friends' in a nearby council (who have a rather more progressive outlook!) - I'll ask but

 

a) we would have to prove due process wasn't followed which would be difficult

she's mad at me at the moment for various domestic issues

 

what we'd need is a technicality to make the meeting invalid ie inquorate, not publishing minutes, failing to publicise in advance etc etc. Does the OMBC website have such internal process listed?

 

it's david.r.jones@oldham.gov.uk

Edited November 15, 2007 by OminousPoultry

[leeslover]

I've 'friends' in a nearby council (who have a rather more progressive outlook!) - I'll ask but

 

a) we would have to prove due process wasn't followed which would be difficult

she's mad at me at the moment for various domestic issues

 

what we'd need is a technicality to make the meeting invalid ie inquorate, not publishing minutes, failing to publicise in advance etc etc. Does the OMBC website have such internal process listed?

 

it's david.r.jones@oldham.gov.uk

If there was a failing like that they could just have another vote and reject it through the correct procedure. We need to make them have the argument in public and justify their decision.

[Diego_Sideburns]

The Leader of the controlling group on the Council is Councillor David Jones. He should be informed of last night's events and the manner in which the Committee's mishandling of the outline application's consideration was perceived by such a lagrge number of members of the public.

 

email: david.jones@oldham.gov.uk

 

I've sent the following email to him with a copy to TTA and Alan Hardy.

 

Dear Councillor Jones,

 

I wish to bring to your attention as Leader of the Council, the way in which the outline planning application for the redevelopment of Boundary Park was dealt with by the Planning Committee.

 

Below is an email I have sent to the Councillors who voted against the application. This is not just a matter of you win some, you lose some - this was a decision taken in spite of overwhelming support on traffic and planning grounds and no objections from the statutory consultees.

 

There was a large number of members of the public present at the meeting, and the perception of how such a major outline planning application was mishandled is alarming. Your Officers will tell you of how the discussion was dealt with.

 

Not only were the objectors' representative and the Applicant allowed to address the Committee for three minutes and answers questions, the same facility was given to a Councillor who spoke on behalf of the residents, thereby giving the objectors two voices.

 

Councillor Bashforth declared his interest in the matter as he had been involved in meetings with the Applicant and the residents. He had declared previously in the Press that he would take no part in the decision process. However he remained in the Chair and voted, with his influence on the Committee members being immense.

 

I would ask you to look into this matter because at the moment the good name of Oldham Council has been dealt an irreparable blow in front of so many witnesses. In fact the good name of local government as a whole has been severely damaged by last night's events.

 

I believe that the Applicant should be invited to resubmit the outline planning application for reconsideration at the next Planning Committee meeting, or even a specially convened meeting to reduce the delay on the Applicant, when the many spurious issues raised can be dismissed in writing and the application dealt with in a more professional manner.

 

Please give this matter your urgent consideration.

 

Yours sincerely,

[oafc0000]

I've sent the following email to him with a copy to TTA and Alan Hardy.

 

Dear Councillor Jones,

 

I wish to bring to your attention as Leader of the Council, the way in which the outline planning application for the redevelopment of Boundary Park was dealt with by the Planning Committee.

 

Below is an email I have sent to the Councillors who voted against the application. This is not just a matter of you win some, you lose some - this was a decision taken in spite of overwhelming support on traffic and planning grounds and no objections from the statutory consultees.

 

There was a large number of members of the public present at the meeting, and the perception of how such a major outline planning application was mishandled is alarming. Your Officers will tell you of how the discussion was dealt with.

 

Not only were the objectors' representative and the Applicant allowed to address the Committee for three minutes and answers questions, the same facility was given to a Councillor who spoke on behalf of the residents, thereby giving the objectors two voices.

 

Councillor Bashforth declared his interest in the matter as he had been involved in meetings with the Applicant and the residents. He had declared previously in the Press that he would take no part in the decision process. However he remained in the Chair and voted, with his influence on the Committee members being immense.

 

I would ask you to look into this matter because at the moment the good name of Oldham Council has been dealt an irreparable blow in front of so many witnesses. In fact the good name of local government as a whole has been severely damaged by last night's events.

 

I believe that the Applicant should be invited to resubmit the outline planning application for reconsideration at the next Planning Committee meeting, or even a specially convened meeting to reduce the delay on the Applicant, when the many spurious issues raised can be dismissed in writing and the application dealt with in a more professional manner.

 

Please give this matter your urgent consideration.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

Fantastic email!!!

[Inspiral_Carpet]

I've sent the following email to him with a copy to TTA and Alan Hardy.

 

Dear Councillor Jones,

 

I wish to bring to your attention as Leader of the Council, the way in which the outline planning application for the redevelopment of Boundary Park was dealt with by the Planning Committee.

 

Below is an email I have sent to the Councillors who voted against the application. This is not just a matter of you win some, you lose some - this was a decision taken in spite of overwhelming support on traffic and planning grounds and no objections from the statutory consultees.

 

There was a large number of members of the public present at the meeting, and the perception of how such a major outline planning application was mishandled is alarming. Your Officers will tell you of how the discussion was dealt with.

 

Not only were the objectors' representative and the Applicant allowed to address the Committee for three minutes and answers questions, the same facility was given to a Councillor who spoke on behalf of the residents, thereby giving the objectors two voices.

 

Councillor Bashforth declared his interest in the matter as he had been involved in meetings with the Applicant and the residents. He had declared previously in the Press that he would take no part in the decision process. However he remained in the Chair and voted, with his influence on the Committee members being immense.

 

I would ask you to look into this matter because at the moment the good name of Oldham Council has been dealt an irreparable blow in front of so many witnesses. In fact the good name of local government as a whole has been severely damaged by last night's events.

 

I believe that the Applicant should be invited to resubmit the outline planning application for reconsideration at the next Planning Committee meeting, or even a specially convened meeting to reduce the delay on the Applicant, when the many spurious issues raised can be dismissed in writing and the application dealt with in a more professional manner.

 

Please give this matter your urgent consideration.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Superb Diego.