The riots ten years on...

[Guest Scratch2000uk]

I see what you are saying Rummy, although i do believe christians are persecuted by Islamic followers far more often than the other way round.( i aint budgin on it )

For those reasons, i will withdraw my challenge Ackey, besides i don't want you to run up a huge phone bill.

 

 

Now, i'm not trying to excuse what that man did in Bosnia, and you are quite right in calling him scum.

I did think this war was initially just territorial, until i looked a little further, have a read of this..

 

Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide published in 2002, Bat Ye'or made the following comments about the historical antecedents to the dispute between Muslims and Christians in the Balkans:

 

“To anyone with some knowledge of the centuries-old history of Serbian resistance to Ottoman domination, it was obvious that the return of a form of Islamic power in Bosnia- Herzegovina would be rejected by Orthodox Serbs. The five centuries of "harmonious and peaceful coexistence” under Islamic rule, cited by Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic belong to the theological dogma of the perfection of the shari'a and the dhimmi For the Orthodox Serbs, however, this same period is considered one of massacre, pillage, slavery, deportation, and the exile of Christian populations. In their eyes it was a regime which found its justification in the usurpation of their land and denial of their rights; hence it represented the exact opposite of a peaceful, multicultural coexistence based on a system of social and political justice. Thus, two conceptions of history clashed, having never before been confronted. On the one hand, there is the version the dhimmi victims; on the other, that of the conquerors, through jihad.

In their wars of emancipation-and, later, of liberation-the Orthodox Serbs found that their bitterest adversaries were their Muslim compatriots attached to their religious privileges and their domination over the humiliated Christians. During World War II Axis forces invaded Yugoslavia and sponsored the creation of a Nazi Croat state (Ustashi) with which many Bosnian Muslims cooperated. At the prompting of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husayni, they formed military corps, including the 13th (Hanjar) Waffen SS Division, some of which were trained in France. Early in the war, these Muslim Slavs actively participated in the policies of the Ustashi Croats and Nazis in the genocide of hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Serbs, Jews, and gypsies. Even their German allies were shocked by the bestial atrocities committed then in Yugoslavia.

The Nazis encouraged secessionist claims by Muslims, some of whose leaders cited the traditional peaceful coexistence under Islam to denounce later these atrocities which they imputed to the Croats-although Muslim participation in the massacres was notorious. In fact, these allegations aimed at exploiting the inter-Christian conflicts between Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs which had facilitated Islam's expansion for a millennium.

Under the authoritarian Communist rule of Tito-a Croat-the Muslim religion benefited from being recognized as Muslim nationality. It was the only group defined by religious criteria, whereas others were characterized by their ethnic differences. The deliberate policy of allowing the Islamization of the Orthodox Serbian homeland (Kosovo and Bosnia-Herzegovina) to continue also earned Tito the economic and political support of the Islamic world and perpetuated inter-Christian schisms. The communist dogma of human brotherhood once again froze the conflicts without resolving them. In 1991, before the conflict erupted, the English edition of Alija Izetbegovic's Islamic Declaration (1970) was published in Sarajevo. It specifically stated: "There can be neither peace nor coexistence between Arabia, the cradle of Islam and non-Islamic social and political institutions." And his conclusion affirmed:

'The Islamic movement must, and can, take over power as soon as it is morally and numerically so strong that it can not only destroy the existing non- Islamic power, but also build up a new Islamic one’.

Underneath the camouflage of "the multicultural Islamic state" and the "five hundred years of peaceful coexistence," Bosnian Serbs recognized the shari'a system which had decimated them. Hence, the cruelty of the fighting in Bosnia reflected the historical confrontation which, instead of being settled by dialogue, erupted in hatred. Its barbarity expresses the revenge of repressed history, a parody of the distorted myth of idyllic coexistence. Izetbegovic described the Canadian UN commander, Major-General Lewis W. MacKenzie, as "an ignorant man" for his statement in New York that:

‘both sides’ in the war were filled with hatred. According to Izetbegovic, this could only have been said by someone who knew nothing of Sarajevo's Muslims and their ‘500-year tradition of tolerance’.

Izetbegovic's reference to an "Ottoman paradise" scandalized Serbs, Greeks, and Armenians. Innocent individuals regardless of religion have become victims of a past which, because it was buried in silence, vengefully returns, accompanied by appalling acts of violence. Those responsible are the politicians who, to safeguard their own interests, tried to impose the myth of tolerance on their victims”.

 

very interesting, for me anyway.

[leeslover]

That article is full of errors, half truths and wild exaggerations. The author appears to think that serbs and croats are ethnically different for example, not true. Pretty much every occupied country had an SS contingent and what point is he making when he points out the bosnians collaborated with the Catholics?

[Ackey]

I'm gonna stop now, Scratch. As your ability to cherry pick is as good as mine.

 

The difference is I know I'm cherry picking whilst you think the Right Wing press is accurate in it's depiction of the Islamic Threat.

 

McCarthyism is my final comment, I'd suggest reviewing it in the context of this fear.

[Guest Scratch2000uk]

Ah, i must be a racist too.

[Guest Scratch2000uk]

That article is full of errors, half truths and wild exaggerations. The author appears to think that serbs and croats are ethnically different for example, not true. Pretty much every occupied country had an SS contingent and what point is he making when he points out the bosnians collaborated with the Catholics?

 

Maybe you can point out the errors, half truths and wild exaggerations.?

Bosnians, and croats fought for germany during the www2 while serbs fought against the nazi's

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_persecution_of_Serbs

[Ackey]

Ah, i must be a racist too.

I never said that and have no reason to suggest it.

 

Simply the right leaning press (as far as the Sun and Times - not just the Tory and HateMail) will have you believe that Islam is a rising force to be feared as Communism was.

 

Reality is very different.

[singe]

It may well be different flavour, same :censored: Ackey.

Just a quick questiion Has anyone heard anything about modern day Christian teachings, proclaiming to send you to hell for believing in another faith?

If you do, i would be very greatfull to listen, or read about it.

I know it's not the norm, but it does and has happened.

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ0rsUofpQM

what it comes across to me is that you are implying that Islamic trachings of Fatwah and Jihad are the norm.

The simple fact is they are as miuch the norm as Chrsitan extremist teaching is.

It's not the norm, but it does and has happened applies to both sides of this.

 

I'd start fromt he point of not beleiving everything you read/here and see in the media.

[Ackey]

You shouldn't laugh, but I did... I just remembered the best example of Christian brutality.

 

Again, before I point it out, I'm not suggesting that it's all Christians - simply that Islam is no more violent:

 

The Hollocaust. Is that a good enough example?

[opinions4u]

Ethnic differences, but a town where people co-exist.

 

A growing tide of political correctness in government and local government.

 

Outside agitators from the Midlands.

 

A right wing 'politician' standing for Parliament.

 

Maybe a little simplistic, but I don't think the riots of 2001 had much more to them than that.

 

Naff all to do with religion.

[latic12345]

Ethnic differences, but a town where people co-exist.

 

A growing tide of political correctness in government and local government.

 

Outside agitators from the Midlands.

 

A right wing 'politician' standing for Parliament.

 

Maybe a little simplistic, but I don't think the riots of 2001 had much more to them than that.

 

Naff all to do with religion.

 

Blaming it on religion is like saying "I don't have a job because the Polish have them". It's the classic mentality of blame. It's always someone else fault. Dare I suggest that the reason there are racial problems in Oldham is to do with the people of Oldham, those people who live in those communities who think everyone else who has it better than them. This problem will never fix itself. It will fix itself when white people, asian people, purple people and all get off their arses and do something about it. The longer people sit in pubs and say "we're badly off because they get all the help" the worse it will get.

[Yard Dog]

Ethnic differences, but a town where people co-exist.

 

A growing tide of political correctness in government and local government.

 

Outside agitators from the Midlands.

 

A right wing 'politician' standing for Parliament.

 

Maybe a little simplistic, but I don't think the riots of 2001 had much more to them than that.

 

Naff all to do with religion.

 

Add in hundreds of reported racist attacks, and god knows how many unreported. As well as sections of the community feeling that the police and media were/are sweeping the issue under the carpet.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

You shouldn't laugh, but I did... I just remembered the best example of Christian brutality.

 

Again, before I point it out, I'm not suggesting that it's all Christians - simply that Islam is no more violent:

 

The Hollocaust. Is that a good enough example?

 

Now we're both laughing. Holocaust? Christian? Tell that to the millions of Polish Catholics who were rounded up and sent to 'work'. Oh you can't. They're all dead - of the Holocaust.

 

Anyway. The riots in Oldham are massively overblown in my view. Not nearly as serious as the riots in Brixton and Toxteth in the early '80s. In Oldham, the white agitators were meatheads from Stoke rather than the police.

[Yard Dog]

Now we're both laughing. Holocaust? Christian? Tell that to the millions of Polish Catholics who were rounded up and sent to 'work'. Oh you can't. They're all dead - of the Holocaust.

 

Anyway. The riots in Oldham are massively overblown in my view. Not nearly as serious as the riots in Brixton and Toxteth in the early '80s. In Oldham, the white agitators were meatheads from Stoke rather than the police.

 

Both 'sides' had people from out of the area stirring things up, but I wouldn't kid yourself - the riots were pure out and out thuggery and criminality from mainly local people of all backgrounds.

 

How many white people from out of the area where jailed then ? Not many, if any, I reckon.

 

Even on the day Stoke came up, there were plenty of local white (and British Pakistani and Bengali) people causing trouble.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Yard Dog

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Both 'sides' had people from out of the area stirring things up, but I wouldn't kid yourself - the riots were pure out and out thuggery and criminality from mainly local people of all backgrounds.

 

How many white people from out of the area where jailed then ? Not many, if any, I reckon.

 

Even on the day Stoke came up, there were plenty of local white (and British Pakistani and Bengali) people causing trouble.

 

Yeah fair enough, but my point is the same. When you've got white citizens and Asian citizens kicking off, it's not as serious as when the police are doing it.

[oafc0000]

I can't remember the BNP taking over the town centre and asians being scared to enter it... Total bull:censored: from the BBC as always....

 

I remember Stokes racist element marching through time before moving on to kick it off in the Asian areas... One the things that blew it all up... No "occupation"...

Edited May 30, 2011 by oafc0000

[oafc0000]

Since 2001 the BNP has collapsed as a political force in Oldham

 

Since when have they been a political force ? Am I not right in thinking they have never held a single seat on Oldham Council....

[oafc0000]

It's staggering how anyone can think any of this has anything to do with religion... Listening to the White guys argument... It's his misguided belief that "they" get all the new houses and school and so forth.. Heard that misguided rubbish from being very young from lots of people... It is of course total bull:censored:...

 

I think the arguments from the Asian community hold far more water when they complain about being denied opportunities and the racism they face...

 

Overall each side needs to stop moaning and dicking each other over and realise it's the super rich who dick us all over...

 

It's got next to nothing to do with religion...

[futchers briefs]

It's staggering how anyone can think any of this has anything to do with religion... Listening to the White guys argument... It's his misguided belief that "they" get all the new houses and school and so forth.. Heard that misguided rubbish from being very young from lots of people... It is of course total bull:censored:...

 

I think the arguments from the Asian community hold far more water when they complain about being denied opportunities and the racism they face...

 

Overall each side needs to stop moaning and dicking each other over and realise it's the super rich who dick us all over...

 

It's got next to nothing to do with religion...

Absolutely. Nothing more needs adding.

[mikejh45]

It's staggering how anyone can think any of this has anything to do with religion... Listening to the White guys argument... It's his misguided belief that "they" get all the new houses and school and so forth.. Heard that misguided rubbish from being very young from lots of people... It is of course total bull:censored:...

 

I think the arguments from the Asian community hold far more water when they complain about being denied opportunities and the racism they face...

 

Overall each side needs to stop moaning and dicking each other over and realise it's the super rich who dick us all over...

 

It's got next to nothing to do with religion...

 

Bull:censored:...yes, total bull:censored:...no! Both sides have a basis to their arguments which has blown massively out of all proportion to the point where it appears to require superhuman effort to pull both sides together.

 

Now, where does the comment "It's the super-rich who dick us all over..." fit into all this? They are at fault for a number of society's ills I agree but I can't make your link, I'm afraid.

[futchers briefs]

Bull:censored:...yes, total bull:censored:...no! Both sides have a basis to their arguments which has blown massively out of all proportion to the point where it appears to require superhuman effort to pull both sides together.

 

Now, where does the comment "It's the super-rich who dick us all over..." fit into all this? They are at fault for a number of society's ills I agree but I can't make your link, I'm afraid.

The policy makers and leaders of our beloved country decided many, many years ago to pull the ladder up and sod the rest - and incidents such as the riots are a by product of many of the decisions they continue to make around the running of this green and pleasant land.

[oafc0000]

Bull:censored:...yes, total bull:censored:...no! Both sides have a basis to their arguments which has blown massively out of all proportion to the point where it appears to require superhuman effort to pull both sides together.

 

Now, where does the comment "It's the super-rich who dick us all over..." fit into all this? They are at fault for a number of society's ills I agree but I can't make your link, I'm afraid.

 

The poverty and fighting over the crumbs tossed from the riches table is where all this unrest stems from... And it isn't just an issue facing Oldham, the Uk... It's a world wide problem...

 

Immigrants head for the UK as the crumbs are a bit bigger here than in their own country... And then tensions rise when the White man and the brown man have to fight over those crumbs.... It's all linked...

 

Would suggest if the 1st world didn't rape the third world for everything it has then the worlds problem wouldnt be played out on the streets of Oldham...

 

It's not religion at fault,,, It's economics, money, power and control... As it always has been...

Edited May 30, 2011 by oafc0000

[oafc0000]

The policy makers and leaders of our beloved country decided many, many years ago to pull the ladder up and sod the rest - and incidents such as the riots are a by product of many of the decisions they continue to make around the running of this green and pleasant land.

 

Totally agree... Sorry hit the - button by accident!

[mikejh45]

The policy makers and leaders of our beloved country decided many, many years ago to pull the ladder up and sod the rest - and incidents such as the riots are a by product of many of the decisions they continue to make around the running of this green and pleasant land.

 

Would that be ALL parties/policy makers/leaders or just those that are of the blue persuasion?

[mikejh45]

The poverty and fighting over the crumbs tossed from the riches table is where all this unrest stems from... And it isn't just an issue facing Oldham, the Uk... It's a world wide problem...

 

Immigrants head for the UK as the crumbs are a bit bigger here than in their own country... And then tensions rise when the White man and the brown man have to fight over those crumbs.... It's all linked...

 

Would suggest if the 1st world didn't rape the third world for everything it has then the worlds problem wouldnt be played out on the streets of Oldham...

 

It's not religion at fault,,, It's economics, money, power and control... As it always has been...

 

Nice little speech but it's been like that since man managed to stand on 2 legs and learnt how to subjugate others.

 

I have the opinion of the people of Oldham, Bradford and Burnley were the subject of failed local government policies in dealing with ethnic minorities. Oldham has an Asian population of around 12%...hardly a dominant influence unlike Leicester for example which, I believe, has a majority Asian population of 52%.....so why not unrest there? Or why not in Warrington?

[futchers briefs]

Would that be ALL parties/policy makers/leaders or just those that are of the blue persuasion?

In general ALL! though whilst not wanting to get into a political debate here (as my knowledge is too light to debate), decisions pre 80s were certainly added to during this decade and imo definately not for the GREAT of BRITAIN.

Policy makers around the world will always make decisions based around the 'control' of populations etc and the old addage that the 'rich get richer' is certainly very true, despite the misery and toils suffered by your average Joe, year on year.