Our youth system

[real]

And Matt Smith was :censored: / then he was a world beater.

 

We've had a serious of managers blind to the importance of player development and unaware of how to use the strengths of what they've got.

 

Nowt wrong with our youth set-up. Look at the first team managers. They've been the problem.

 

Yeah, cos there wasn't a single fan saying he was pathetic and rubbish and should be sent to macc permanently.

[slystallone]

Does it go deeper than the youth set up too?

 

Look at the number of players that were crap here or we never played them who've gone on to bigger things and/or commanded big fees - O'Grady, Davies, Higginbotham, Tierney....

Throw Dawson into the mix who someone here didn't fancy but within a year or so had gone and ripped it up at Rochdale and been sold for more than any of the players mentioned by Rob.

The Dawson example you've used is incorrect.

 

He was fancied here and was going to be offered a deal - then he broke his leg. The deal was put on ice, until his injury healed and the club was able to evalute whether it had cleared up and wasn't an issue.

Rochdale came in and signed him whilst still injured - a huge gamble. It paid off for them, but could so easily have not done had he failed to actually recover from the bad break.

 

I see no issue at all with out youth set-up. In fact, for a club in our position, the numbers of players who have gone on to make the step up into the 1st team is right up there.

 

We were featured in an not too distent issue of 4-4-2 in an article on youth scouting. It was very complimentary on our youth scouting network, on the centre of excellence and of the youth system as a hole. They, as reporters, see a heck of a lot of clubs, and as such are able to write balanced overviews such as they did in that issue.

 

The "decent money" we have receieved for the likes of Spencer, Trotman, Philliskirk, Eaves et all is just that IMO - decent money.

 

Yep, we'd all obviously love one of our 15 year olds to be sold for 2million to Dortmund; but £200K to £400K at a time is still, IMO, a very decent return for the good work our youth system does.

 

Next ones through?

Gossett and Truelove look likely to be involved in the 1st team next season - possibly this season in the case of Gossett. Whilst that continues to happen on a regular basis, the youth set-up is doing a great job.

Edited November 16, 2013 by slystallone

[opinions4u]

Yeah, cos there wasn't a single fan saying he was pathetic and rubbish and should be sent to macc permanently.

The point being a football manager should have a better idea than a bunch of :censored:wit fans, but when it comes to players' development we've seen Penney and Dickov deliver little positive. Sheridan's loan dabbling weren't exactly beneficial either.

[GlossopLatic]

The point being a football manager should have a better idea than a bunch of :censored:wit fans, but when it comes to players' development we've seen Penney and Dickov deliver little positive. Sheridan's loan dabbling weren't exactly beneficial either.

17 years in league 1 11 different managers and people still believe our problems are down to the manager btw who signed Matt smith and gave tarky his debut?

[dave_ragg1984]

Thing is with Smith, Dickov signed him as one for the future and by the end if his 2 years here he had learned a lot and come on leaps and bounds. If you look at where he is now, I don't think you can criticise how he was managed.

[opinions4u]

17 years in league 1 11 different managers and people still believe our problems are down to the manager btw who signed Matt smith and gave tarky his debut?

Tarky's significant improvement came after Dickov went.

 

Smith? Christ, we had a 17 foot striker and two wingers on the pitch and nobody worked out that landing crosses on his head was a good idea. We didn't even think to have a runner from midfield latching on to the breadcrumbs after Smith won 90% of the long balls hoofed up to him. Again, his contribution after Dickov left was greater.

 

And Johnson's not exempt. I think he's misused Mellor this season, much the same as Dickov did.

 

Thing is with Smith, Dickov signed him as one for the future and by the end if his 2 years here he had learned a lot and come on leaps and bounds. If you look at where he is now, I don't think you can criticise how he was managed.

Come off it. The club had given up on him. Corney was ready to pay him off. Then M'Changama lands one on his head and we gave a hero.

 

Dickov had no idea how to use Matt Smith. Despite being the one to sign him and give him his debut.

Edited November 16, 2013 by opinions4u

[disjointed]

Tarky's significant improvement came after Dickov went.

 

Smith? Christ, we had a 17 foot striker and two wingers on the pitch and nobody worked out that landing crosses on his head was a good idea. Again, his contribution after Dickov left was greater.

 

And Johnson's not exempt. I think he's misused Mellor this season, much the same as Dickov did.

To be fair to Johnson, when he started Mellor in midfield he contrived to get himself a 3 match ban after which other players made a good case for selection. Mellor will get his chance in mid sooner rather than later I am sure.

[Mullet]

 

And Johnson's not exempt. I think he's misused Mellor this season, much the same as Dickov did.

 

How so?

 

He was used successfully in centre-midfield last season by Johnson then experimented with at CB, quickly realised it was the wrong tactic and then gave Mellor some responsibility at Rotherham in CM again and he wasted it, then was benched and used at left-back as cover for our injuries in defence.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Mullet

[dave_ragg1984]

Once Derbyshire's loan ended he finally got his chance at a decent run in the team, and straight away he was a better player than the one we signed 18 months earlier. It wasn't just the Liverpool game, he was playing well for a month before that. In the 18 months between signing and getting a proper run in the side, he learned a lot, especially that he should attack the ball rather than just expect to win it because of his size. Being taught stuff like that comes from the coaching staff.

[opinions4u]

How so?

 

He was used successfully in centre-midfield last season by Johnson then experimented with at CB, quickly realised it was the wrong tactic

You answered your own question.

[opinions4u]

Once Derbyshire's loan ended he finally got his chance at a decent run in the team, and straight away he was a better player than the one we signed 18 months earlier. It wasn't just the Liverpool game, he was playing well for a month before that. In the 18 months between signing and getting a proper run in the side, he learned a lot, especially that he should attack the ball rather than just expect to win it because of his size. Being taught stuff like that comes from the coaching staff.

It all coincided with Tony Philliskirk joining the first team coaching set up.

[Mullet]

You answered your own question.

 

I don't think a 2-game experiment constitutes misuse. Just as the Winchester experiment at right-back doesn't constitute a sensation, yet.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Mullet

[HarryBosch]

Once Derbyshire's loan ended he finally got his chance at a decent run in the team, and straight away he was a better player than the one we signed 18 months earlier. It wasn't just the Liverpool game, he was playing well for a month before that. In the 18 months between signing and getting a proper run in the side, he learned a lot, especially that he should attack the ball rather than just expect to win it because of his size. Being taught stuff like that comes from the coaching staff.

Regardless of the Liverpool and Everton games he was still terrible against League One opposition under Dickov then, all of a sudden, he came on leaps and bounds under Philliskirk and even moreso under Johnson. Then he went to the Championship.

 

Of all the damning indictments of Dickov, Matt Smith was far and away the most glaring.

[jsslatic]

Once Derbyshire's loan ended he finally got his chance at a decent run in the team, and straight away he was a better player than the one we signed 18 months earlier. It wasn't just the Liverpool game, he was playing well for a month before that. In the 18 months between signing and getting a proper run in the side, he learned a lot, especially that he should attack the ball rather than just expect to win it because of his size. Being taught stuff like that comes from the coaching staff.

This. He led the line well certainly from at least Scunthorpe on NYD.

 

I think it was the head bandage that suddenly made him awesome.

[HarryBosch]

This. He led the line well certainly from at least Scunthorpe on NYD.

I think it was the head bandage that suddenly made him awesome.

He improved massively. But he was never "awesome" (dude)

[Oh Heck C-Beck]

Philliskirk was critical of our first team managers in regards to bringing through youth players after Dickov left if I remember correctly.

 

Seems like a good number of players still making a living from football I wonder how this compares with other teams spending a similar amount on their youth set ups?

[leeslover]

This. He led the line well certainly from at least Scunthorpe on NYD.

I think it was the head bandage that suddenly made him awesome.

You could coach Smith from now until the sands of time run out and he would still have a fifty pence head and boots of :censored:. He would be quite good at heading crosses in though. We only thought to cross it to his at the end of his time with us. Got to be the manager.

[dave_ragg1984]

Regardless of the Liverpool and Everton games he was still terrible against League One opposition under Dickov then, all of a sudden, he came on leaps and bounds under Philliskirk and even moreso under Johnson. Then he went to the Championship.

 

Of all the damning indictments of Dickov, Matt Smith was far and away the most glaring.

 

I'd hardly say he came on leaps and bounds under Philliskirk. He was carrying an injury for most of the time Philliskirk was in charge, so only started 3 of the 6 league games he managed and didn't score a goal. Once he got his fitness back up under Johnson though he was a right handful again.

[opinions4u]

This. He led the line well certainly from at least Scunthorpe on NYD.

I think it was the head bandage that suddenly made him awesome.

You mean from when Philliskirk joined the first team coaching set up after Taggert and friends were fired off?

[GlossopLatic]

Philliskirk was critical of our first team managers in regards to bringing through youth players after Dickov left if I remember correctly.

 

Seems like a good number of players still making a living from football I wonder how this compares with other teams spending a similar amount on their youth set ups?

The only time we brought through a large amount of youth team players was under Andy Ritchie it hardly brought us success and it's not like every other club is selling on a youth team player for 7 figures every season. If we bring through 1 a season I think we've done well.

 

Where we really excel is picking up the cast offs of other teams youth policies.

[Zorrro]

Micah Richards

 

 

Black

 

[blueatheart]

Back on the topic at hand from the OP. Our youth system has contributed 12 players out of our 30 player squad at present. Back of a programme numbers like.

 

I don't think that's a bad record given that at least four a regularly in and around the first team and another two or three have been in the squad several times this season.

[OAFC33]

As someone with a son going through the youth system at the moment I can't praise Tony highly enough for his enthusiasm and dedication to the youth system. The stats concerning how may have 'come through' the youth system are misleading as many are only picked up at 15 and 16 years of age when released by other clubs who have the budget to import overseas players into their academies. The hit rate achieved by Latics is far in excess of clubs with comparable budgets in the area. 4 scholars from 9 last year and i believe a similar number will make the grade this year if Johnson remains in charge as he seems more focused on bringing the youth through and bridging the gap from youth to senior football.

[rosa]

Once Derbyshire's loan ended he finally got his chance at a decent run in the team, and straight away he was a better player than the one we signed 18 months earlier. It wasn't just the Liverpool game, he was playing well for a month before that. In the 18 months between signing and getting a proper run in the side, he learned a lot, especially that he should attack the ball rather than just expect to win it because of his size. Being taught stuff like that comes from the coaching staff.

 

He was MOTM at Forest. As you say, it finally clicked that defenders tend to be scared :censored:less of 6ft 6 strikers running at them and attacking the ball, whereas if you stand waiting for the ball to come in them jump at it from a standing start the defender'll just back into you, go down and win a free kick. That spell in the second half where we suddenly turned into Barcelona was at least partly down to Smith being double-marked, which created space for Simpson and Baxter.

 

back on the topic of the youth set-up, we do have a decent record of young players coming through compared to bigger clubs. Whether that's down to necessity or the quality of the youth coaching (and given that Tony Philliskirk's had several offers from bigger clubs, I'd say the latter's got a lot to do with it), if I was the parent of a youth player, I'd much rather have him playing at a club where if he does well he'll get a chance in the first team. Liverpool's youth set-up is seen as one of the more productive in the premier league but I remember speaking to Lee Peltier's mum and little brother before the Yeovil game years ago (he was on Liverpool's books, on loan at Yeovil at the time), and they were saying that the youth players there don't have any real expectation of breaking through into the first team. His brother was on their books as well, and he was saying that even at his level (he was about 13-14) the team was full of Spanish players and he had no chance of playing. However good the coaching is, it must be so demoralising at that age to know you haven't really got any prospect of playing. I'd imagine it'd be far better for a player's development to know that if they put the effort in and do well they'll be playing at a competitive level.

[Mullet]

As someone with a son going through the youth system at the moment I can't praise Tony highly enough for his enthusiasm and dedication to the youth system. The stats concerning how may have 'come through' the youth system are misleading as many are only picked up at 15 and 16 years of age when released by other clubs who have the budget to import overseas players into their academies. The hit rate achieved by Latics is far in excess of clubs with comparable budgets in the area. 4 scholars from 9 last year and i believe a similar number will make the grade this year if Johnson remains in charge as he seems more focused on bringing the youth through and bridging the gap from youth to senior football.

 

How does he do this? This isn't a dig I'm genuinely interested to know